witesoxfan Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Guys, after thinking about this for two days, I seriously don't think that we are giving KW enough credit here. We have all said that he really wasn't the mastermind behind the whole deal, or wasn't the entire thing, which I agree with. But most of say that this was mainly because George wanted the Red Sox to lose the race on Colon. If that was the case, than why would KW Osuna and Lantigua(while receiving $2 million in cash) for El Duque, and then trade El Duque, Biddle, Liefer and $4million in case(a 50-50 split by the Sox and Yanks) for Colon and Nunez? Do you think Cashman said "OK Kenny, I'll give you El Duque and $2 mill in cash for Osuna and then I'll call up Omar and ask if you can give him El Duque, Rocky and Jeff, along with $4 million in cash for Bartolo and Jorge", or that Omar did the exact same? I don't think so. I do actually think KW was the mastermind behind the entire deal, and he did exactly what everyone wanted him to do....acquire a very good starting pitcher while taking advantage of the weak....as cruel as it sounds, that is basically what we wanted him to do, and he did it. I think KW orchestrated two very good trades in this entire package....this shows that KW isn't as stupid as well all take him to be....either that, or he's got someone controlling him. He may be a dumbass...he may not be. I guess I'll have to wait and see. I may actually be starting to like him. We'll find out if the clubhouse spies are still going on and if he's still going to be calling the shots....and if he is calling the shots at all the home games and none of the roadies, he must be doing something right, because we are a better home team than we are a road team. I think he may actually be trying to bring us a winner in Chicago....as hard as it is for some people to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 I have realized that I have gradually become a KW defender. I don't think he has done a bad job overall, and he seems to getting better at this as he goes along. I sure am not saying that he has never screwed up, because he has. And to me, the Ritchie deal was the worst. Even when that trade was made I was trying to figure out what he was thinking. But, all in all, he's doing ok and getting better. At least, as of now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 I'm a critic of KW but have said since the Colon deal that it doesn't matter who masterminded the deal or who approached who..... KW deserves credit on this one. If KW getting a Colon-type of pitcher means KW has to go to other GM's and complete 3, 4, 5, hell 12 team deals then so be it. I'm glad KW finally did something right..... but he can't stop here. This team can still use another pitcher and a CF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 This whole topic is pissing me off. Kenny made a good deal. He got a big time pitcher to go with Mark. Great. If the Sox win in 2003, he'll get the kudos at that time. Right now he's set the table, but the players have to do the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempers Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 This whole topic is pissing me off. Kenny made a good deal. He got a big time pitcher to go with Mark. Great. If the Sox win in 2003, he'll get the kudos at that time. Right now he's set the table, but the players have to do the rest. Good call, ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSF Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 I have been critical of KW in the past, but this trade for Colon, I tip my hat to him. Unlike last year's fiasco of a trade, he didn't give up a bunch of prospects. Liefer wanted out of town, the trade for Koch put the writing on the wall to Osuna that his closing days were over, & Biddle just seemed to be hit/miss all the time. To get a quality pitcher like Colon, even if just for one season, showed commitment on KW's part to help bring a winner to the Windy City. No prospects (except Lantigua) were mortgaged for this trade. And another thing, if Cashman's sole intent was to keep Colon out of Boston, so be it. In the end, Cashman & the Yankees will be sorry when they have to face the Sox in the ALCS, & watch as Colon stomps all over them. And finally, if Pudge Rodriguez is still available, take him. Again, like Colon, if just for one year, you'll solidfy the entire diamond, & all question marks just might be answered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 I have been critical of KW in the past, but this trade for Colon, I tip my hat to him. Unlike last year's fiasco of a trade, he didn't give up a bunch of prospects. Liefer wanted out of town, the trade for Koch put the writing on the wall to Osuna that his closing days were over, & Biddle just seemed to be hit/miss all the time. To get a quality pitcher like Colon, even if just for one season, showed commitment on KW's part to help bring a winner to the Windy City. No prospects (except Lantigua) were mortgaged for this trade. And another thing, if Cashman's sole intent was to keep Colon out of Boston, so be it. In the end, Cashman & the Yankees will be sorry when they have to face the Sox in the ALCS, & watch as Colon stomps all over them. And finally, if Pudge Rodriguez is still available, take him. Again, like Colon, if just for one year, you'll solidfy the entire diamond, & all question marks just might be answered. as killa said and which i agree with, i am giving kw credit. however i am i don't think he is the second coming of the best gm out there. he did a good job what more do you want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 why dont we just hold kenny to the standards he set for himself the day he got the job...he said if the sox dont win a world series under his watch then he will consider himself a failure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 why dont we just hold kenny to the standards he set for himself the day he got the job...he said if the sox dont win a world series under his watch then he will consider himself a failure so until til how are we to judge him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Guys, after thinking about this for two days, I seriously don't think that we are giving KW enough credit here. We have all said that he really wasn't the mastermind behind the whole deal, or wasn't the entire thing, which I agree with. But most of say that this was mainly because George wanted the Red Sox to lose the race on Colon. If that was the case, than why would KW Osuna and Lantigua(while receiving $2 million in cash) for El Duque, and then trade El Duque, Biddle, Liefer and $4million in case(a 50-50 split by the Sox and Yanks) for Colon and Nunez? Do you think Cashman said "OK Kenny, I'll give you El Duque and $2 mill in cash for Osuna and then I'll call up Omar and ask if you can give him El Duque, Rocky and Jeff, along with $4 million in cash for Bartolo and Jorge", or that Omar did the exact same? I don't think so. I do actually think KW was the mastermind behind the entire deal, and he did exactly what everyone wanted him to do....acquire a very good starting pitcher while taking advantage of the weak....as cruel as it sounds, that is basically what we wanted him to do, and he did it. I think KW orchestrated two very good trades in this entire package....this shows that KW isn't as stupid as well all take him to be....either that, or he's got someone controlling him. He may be a dumbass...he may not be. I guess I'll have to wait and see. I may actually be starting to like him. We'll find out if the clubhouse spies are still going on and if he's still going to be calling the shots....and if he is calling the shots at all the home games and none of the roadies, he must be doing something right, because we are a better home team than we are a road team. I think he may actually be trying to bring us a winner in Chicago....as hard as it is for some people to believe. ok i know your just doing this to piss me off ..so ill spare you the kw sucks details.. believe as you wish.... by far kw is no mastermind... and by far, if cashman hadnt stuck his two cents in on this one we would not even be close to having colon here with us..............dont believe me?.... ask any of the players their feelings (the things they heard and have been discussing amoungst eachother this off season)..... when you all go to soxfest........and see while kw is basking in his glory with this whole colon mess, he set aside once again, dealing with mark buehrle..... is he intentionally trying to piss him off or what.... as for that so called deal he was offered.. guess what... he was offered the same.. note i said SAME amount of money he made last season with about 10,000 added in incentives..... some incentive to do better this year huh? i say f*** kw and all his dealings... i cant wait till mid season and boston comes along with an offer that kw wont be able to resist and colon goes east............would be the perfect ending to this whole thing.... either that or colon who is so way over due for injury will end up on the freakin dl shortly after the season starts and riding pine will be his new position.............hey kw is two for two thus far.. wells, ritchie..... i hope for his sake the third time is a charm but with his luck it wont be...... mho........dont like it dont read it.......... :fyou kw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 why dont we just hold kenny to the standards he set for himself the day he got the job...he said if the sox dont win a world series under his watch then he will consider himself a failure so until til how are we to judge him? on the teams record???...its dropped off every year since he took over...we can make all the excuses we want about injuries and such but other teams over come them...minnesota overcame injuries to their top 3 starters last year...right now he is a failure..100%..the team has not responded under him at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 why dont we just hold kenny to the standards he set for himself the day he got the job...he said if the sox dont win a world series under his watch then he will consider himself a failure so until til how are we to judge him? on the teams record???...its dropped off every year since he took over...we can make all the excuses we want about injuries and such but other teams over come them...minnesota overcame injuries to their top 3 starters last year...right now he is a failure..100%..the team has not responded under him at all... i rather judge him on who he gets, the trades he makes and the failures and mistakes he makes. his success has been limited but by far the diaz and colon trades are his best. does that make up for his mistakes. no but it counts against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 i judge him on how he handles this team.. the promises he makes and then reniggs on, and the blunders he makes along the way .......hes made a few crappy deals and the ones we are still waiting on to flurish...well lets just say its been long enough.. time for them to put up or get out its been long enough.......sick of waiting.......so far kw's track record has been nothing but one f*** up after another....and we have colon now but whos to say that this one wont f*** up as well.... you all act like he parted the red sea or something......geez havent you learned anything in the past few years yet??????? judge kw on his f***ups cause thats all hes been thus far.......one aquisition doesnt make up for the many that went sour........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 ok i know your just doing this to piss me off ..so ill spare you the kw sucks details.. believe as you wish.... by far kw is no mastermind... and by far, if cashman hadnt stuck his two cents in on this one we would not even be close to having colon here with us..............dont believe me?.... ask any of the players their feelings (the things they heard and have been discussing amoungst eachother this off season)..... when you all go to soxfest........and see while kw is basking in his glory with this whole colon mess, he set aside once again, dealing with mark buehrle..... is he intentionally trying to piss him off or what.... as for that so called deal he was offered.. guess what... he was offered the same.. note i said SAME amount of money he made last season with about 10,000 added in incentives..... some incentive to do better this year huh? i say f*** kw and all his dealings... i cant wait till mid season and boston comes along with an offer that kw wont be able to resist and colon goes east............would be the perfect ending to this whole thing.... either that or colon who is so way over due for injury will end up on the freakin dl shortly after the season starts and riding pine will be his new position.............hey kw is two for two thus far.. wells, ritchie..... i hope for his sake the third time is a charm but with his luck it wont be...... mho........dont like it dont read it.......... :fyou kw HSC...I'm not trying to piss you off at all. I accept your opinion and wouldn't do anything of the sort. It's just that this move actually does have all the makings of a KW deal. He traded a reliever and a prospect for a player, which isn't as much of a move like he would make, but him dealing a prospect is. The next part is what really triggers it. He trades 2 starters, along with a throw-in, along with cash for a starter and a minor prospect....how many times have we seen the main part of the deal being a 2-for-1 with a throw-in to go along with everythin? I've seen us trade away Foulke, MJ and Valentine(along with cash) for Koch and two minor leaguers, I've seen us traded away Wells, Lowe and Fogg for Ritchie(and a minor leaguer), and I've now seen us trade away El Duque, Biddle and Liefer, as well as cash, for Colon(and a minor leaguer)....notice how in two of the deals he gave cash and in two of the deals he got one minor leaguer? No one is saying that Colon will be healthy all year...but assuming he is(and he's shown no signs of any type of injury in the past let alone been on the except for one time very early in his career), I think we can expect a very good season out of him - at the very least, 15 wins, but if he pitches anywhere near where he can pitch, probably 20 or more. And the trade will be a winner. Also, I am sure that KW won't trade Colon at mid-season unless we are way, way out of the race by then, and I assume he'll want to get two of Boston's better prospects along. If we are 10 games out at the deadline, I don't think KW will be dealing Colon....I think we will have to be 15 or more, and Minnesota would probably have to have about 75 wins by then atleast...something tells me that Minny won't be 75-33 at that time, because we should have atleast 60 wins...if not, I say we should fire both Williams AND Manuel, because being 60-48 should not be a question at all....it should be very, very easy to accomplish with this team. This team has a ton of talent, probably one of the more talented teams in the league. But we will have to have some very bad managment to be any worse than an 87 win team....and that's 12 games over .500. We should win ATLEAST 90, or this year will be a failure, IMO. In retrospect, what I'm basically saying is is the fact that the Colon trade had all the makings of a KW trade, and that he actually wants to win. Remember that 'surprise team' the media speculated about? Considering that Bartolo is going to be a member White Sox, I'd say we were the surprise team. And if we don't have a winner, than we should either fire both Williams and Manuel, or we should rebuild. Tell me which one you'd rather do...and I think you'll probably agree with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjmarte Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Well I've decided to evaluate each trade or signing on their own merits. The Colon deal was good, the Ritchie trade last year sucked. I'm going to judge KW on the success of this team. He can't control how the players play but he is ultimately responsible for each person on this team including the coaches. He has made some moves (Colon, not signing Ritchie) I like this year. If the team gets better this year then he gets a buy till next year. Then he better improve the team some more. If the team doesn't get better this year then run his ass out of town on a rail. I'm reserving any judgement on his overall performance until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Well I've decided to evaluate each trade or signing on their own merits. The Colon deal was good, the Ritchie trade last year sucked. I'm going to judge KW on the success of this team. He can't control how the players play but he is ultimately responsible for each person on this team including the coaches. He has made some moves (Colon, not signing Ritchie) I like this year. If the team gets better this year then he gets a buy till next year. Then he better improve the team some more. If the team doesn't get better this year then run his ass out of town on a rail. I'm reserving any judgement on his overall performance until then. the performance as you said is not kw fault, however when you are responsible for acquiring players whose performance does not equal the performance level of the person you are trading, then its kw fault for lack of judgement or ability to perform his job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Well I've decided to evaluate each trade or signing on their own merits. The Colon deal was good, the Ritchie trade last year sucked. I'm going to judge KW on the success of this team. He can't control how the players play but he is ultimately responsible for each person on this team including the coaches. He has made some moves (Colon, not signing Ritchie) I like this year. If the team gets better this year then he gets a buy till next year. Then he better improve the team some more. If the team doesn't get better this year then run his ass out of town on a rail. I'm reserving any judgement on his overall performance until then. the performance as you said is not kw fault, however when you are responsible for acquiring players whose performance does not equal the performance level of the person you are trading, then its kw fault for lack of judgement or ability to perform his job. to back up what LDF said...if we didnt hold a GM responsible for the play of the players he traded for..then hawk harrelson would still be our GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Well I've decided to evaluate each trade or signing on their own merits. The Colon deal was good, the Ritchie trade last year sucked. I'm going to judge KW on the success of this team. He can't control how the players play but he is ultimately responsible for each person on this team including the coaches. He has made some moves (Colon, not signing Ritchie) I like this year. If the team gets better this year then he gets a buy till next year. Then he better improve the team some more. If the team doesn't get better this year then run his ass out of town on a rail. I'm reserving any judgement on his overall performance until then. the performance as you said is not kw fault, however when you are responsible for acquiring players whose performance does not equal the performance level of the person you are trading, then its kw fault for lack of judgement or ability to perform his job. to back up what LDF said...if we didnt hold a GM responsible for the play of the players he traded for..then hawk harrelson would still be our GM the real question or statement should be, "we are giving him tooooo much credit" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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