kapkomet Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I am not a "practicing Jew" per se, I go to synagogue 2 times a year, I don't keep kosher, and I don't live my life to the letter of Judaic Law. I make NO apologies for this. I am a "practicing Zionist" though, for this I make NO apologies as well. All I was saying from day 1 of this (now annoying) thread is that in the conflict between Israel and the "Palestinians", Israel is in the right; "Palestine" has NO right to any of the land of Israel, never has, and G-d willing never will! END OF STORY! THIS explains everything!!! Thanks for all that, we need to say no more on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Responses to responses: If Israel has "refugees" living on Israeli controlled land, it either needs to take care of these people, who are forced to rely state support for their survival or expel them, but to let them continue to live in the manner in which they are forced to live is unacceptable. One could make the argument that it would politically unfeasible to expel the 3 million or so people that are not Israeli on the occupied lands. Doing so would probably mean the end of US aid, because although it stands behind Israel, it also needs the rest of the mideast to satisfy its energy needs. Opportunistic OPEC members in the gulf region would probably leverage its oil availability to the United States on its decision over such a matter. Not because these states actually care about the Palestinians but because this chip would be a tipping point to allow the state to gain more influence within that region. This leaves Israel with one viable political option. Take care of the people living within its borders, occupied or otherwise. Jordan may have persecuted Palestinians in the past - but Jordan has also relinquished claim for these lands and called for a Palestinian state to be established. Israel continues to allow an intolerable life for Palestinians. If life is better for Arab Jews, although they face systemic discrimination from within the Israeli state and are generally considered to be the least enfranchised Israelis, why isn't there the ability for Palestinians to become Israeli citizens? This argument doesn't address the fundamental issue here. Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza live in a difficult environment that the Israelis have the best ability to improve. 2. The "disputed territories" stopped being disputed territories in the 1980s when Jordan gave up its claims on those lands and said that they properly belong to the Palestinians. Since the Palestinians actually live on these lands, this no longer makes them "disputed." Further, since these lands, outside of settlements sponosored by the government that are inhabited exclusively by Israel are not considered part of Israel, this would make them an occupied territory, or at least a colony. Another term loaded with negative connotations. 3. This is a chicken/egg argument. People have brains and can think for themselves. I was told in Catholic School that Luther's Reformation was a mistake. I disagreed. I was told in Catholic School that I should wait until marriage before I have sex. I didn't. I was told that gay people were evil. I disagreed, then I even realized I was gay! Wow! Independent thoughts! If people's lives markedly improve and the cause of this improvement is obviously Israeli, mindsets WILL change. Not all mindsets, but they will change rather quickly. A good case study would be that of Russia. Shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union, the communists made a comeback and helped further destroy the economy there. After Yeltsin's equally corrupt political party made a comeback, and the economy started to improve, the fortunes of the communists declined. If people are fat and happier, they are less likely to bomb and be angry. At least at people other than themselves. Will this solve 100% of the terror problem? Of course not, but it will make it more difficult for radical islamists and terrorists to recruit their activists. 4. I wish I was a fry cook! They get paid better. I'm not one to discuss my education, but I too a have a degree (I didn't the "degreed", the second d cost extra) in French, I also studied for a while in a Masters program for Political Science, but I'm not gonna get in a pissing match about someone's education - especially from a school so poor that they give out "degreeds" rather than degrees. I bet the cover of the "diplomad" was probably in "pleatherd" too. "Palis" should be reliant on theor own "leadership" to take care of them. Why should Israel take care of a race of people who are hell-bent on destroying Israel?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I am not a "practicing Jew" per se, I go to synagogue 2 times a year, I don't keep kosher, and I don't live my life to the letter of Judaic Law. I make NO apologies for this. I am a "practicing Zionist" though, for this I make NO apologies as well. All I was saying from day 1 of this (now annoying) thread is that in the conflict between Israel and the "Palestinians", Israel is in the right; "Palestine" has NO right to any of the land of Israel, never has, and G-d willing never will! END OF STORY! No kidding, not a practicing Jew? I am so shocked. I guess the hate, advocacy of murder, and other assorted racism should have been a bigger clue. Really there is no point to talking or listening to you further, because all that means is you are a racist with an axe to grind using the Torah to further your own hatred amoungst others. Heil Sharon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 "Palestine" has NO right to any of the land of Israel, never has, and G-d willing never will! So, if you disregard the scripture in regards to how to treat people (ie basic respect and love for others), why should you listen to the scripture when it says that you lay claim to that land? Is some of the Jewish scripture more valid and more divinely inspired than before? Because if the Jewish claim to the land that is Isreal does not come from the Scripture WHERE does it come from? It is, of course, the Holy Land to 3 major world religions, so the historical and religous claim could technically be made for all three of them to share that land... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Hmmm...hunting kids for sport like in the Harper's article, the wall keeping people from their jobs and destroying the Palestinian economy, 85% of the retaliation killings are collateral damage innocents so it's easy to recruit saying "Your family had nothing to do with terrorism and they still killed your [insert family member here]" Living in occupied territories and building illegal settlements, killing innocents in a mosque and then revering the guy as a hero in naming a park after him and writing a popular book about his actions. When you take land that is not yours, put up a wall to keep out all Palestinians and build settlements in land that isn't yours, kill innocents if as collateral damage or hunt them for sport...how can you not expect there to be uprisings using whatever weapons they have. Israel has a very direct role in causing an upsurge in the terrorism it faces. Apu...is the "Harpers Article" the ONLY thing you've read? Israel belongs to the Jewish people, ALWAYS has, ALWAYS will! I don't understand where you get this "Israel stole the land" bulls***, but it is bulls***! You cannot back up this premise with ANY credible source(s)! It is impossible!!! You are without question, the most anti-semetic, anti-Israel, anti-Jewish "person" that I have ever encountered. Therefore, I will not address you any longer...you are an uneducated racist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Israel belongs to the Jewish people, ALWAYS has, ALWAYS will! Actually it belonged to the Romans for a while, then the Muslims, then the Christians, really, it's been a hotbed of activity for thousands of years!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 which is worse? an "uneducated racist" who doesn't know any better, or an "educated racist", such as yourself, who should know better, and want to seek out the truth. Look in the mirror bub, you're everything you dish out. hmmmmf. law school "degreed". My ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Israel belongs to the Jewish people, ALWAYS has, ALWAYS will! He has the deed that God signed thousands of years ago. If I4E was Indian, he would be arguing we should be giving Manhatten back to the Indians. I must profess right here and right now that I've always been a huge I4E fan. In third grade, when he won the "Is Too ~ Is Not" Playground Championships I knew he was destined for greatness. Later, when he won the "I know you are, but what am I?" World Championship with a record setting 17 day 2,482,893 repeat performance; I realized no one could ever match his blind devotion to one ideal. Truly someone who should be remembered along with the other Real Men of Genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 which is worse? an "uneducated racist" who doesn't know any better, or an "educated racist", such as yourself, who should know better, and want to seek out the truth. Look in the mirror bub, you're everything you dish out. hmmmmf. law school "degreed". My ass. IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law, douchebag! It is worse to be an uneducated racist, because, uneduated people (like you and Apu) are more likely to spread ignorance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Actually it belonged to the Romans for a while, then the Muslims, then the Christians, really, it's been a hotbed of activity for thousands of years!!!! Jews have been there longest AND most continually (LONGEST UNINTERRUPTED PRESENCE BY FAR!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Jews have been there longest AND most continually (LONGEST UNINTERRUPTED PRESENCE BY FAR!!!) Actually that would probably be the polytheists. BRING THEM BACK!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 THIS explains everything!!! Thanks for all that, we need to say no more on this topic. That's right, run away and hide under your white sheets! Hope to see you at aSox game some day...you'll be easy to recognize, sitting there with your swastika armband on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Can someone please tell me what value does this thread have any longer.. ? If all that's left is ignorant posting back and forth I vote to lock and file it. It's clear some can't play nicely with others.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 No kidding, not a practicing Jew? I am so shocked. I guess the hate, advocacy of murder, and other assorted racism should have been a bigger clue. Really there is no point to talking or listening to you further, because all that means is you are a racist with an axe to grind using the Torah to further your own hatred amoungst others. Heil Sharon. See you at the ballpark too, trailer-trash. I assume you'll be sitting in the upper deck, burning a cross and wearing your white sheets (with women's underwear underneath!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Jews have been there longest AND most continually (LONGEST UNINTERRUPTED PRESENCE BY FAR!!!) But seriously, answer my question about the Scriptures from the previous page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Agreed. It's one thing to disagree, it's another to sling such slanderous insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Agreed. It's one thing to disagree, it's another to sling such slanderous insults. And I'm sorry but the latest round is a tad bit over the top for me. Someone needs to be given a time out... Or perhaps we'll see a few more regulars taking a self imposed one.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Agreed. It's one thing to disagree, it's another to sling such slanderous insults. Or we could just ban the one with the insults...Really, he's gone a too far many times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Or we could just ban the one with the insults...Really, he's gone a too far many times... I agree 110%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 He has the deed that God signed thousands of years ago. If I4E was Indian, he would be arguing we should be giving Manhatten back to the Indians. I must profess right here and right now that I've always been a huge I4E fan. In third grade, when he won the "Is To ~ Is Not" Playground Championships I knew he was destined for greatness. Later, when he won the "I know you are, but what am I?" World Championship with a record setting 17 day 2,482,893 repeat performance; I realized no one could ever match his blind devotion to one ideal. Truly someone who should be remembered along with the other Real Men of Genius Read the Bible, sport. The part where G-d "sold" Israel to Abraham (a Jew!). I am admittedly not religious, but I do know this! Again, your Indian analogy is ass-backwards; if the "Palestinians" had been there first and had their land stolen from them, your analogy would make a shred of sense. However, the Jews were in Israel first, and have had the longest uninterrupted presence of ANY people, and the "palis" have been trying to steal the land from Israel. According to your way of "thinking", Israel should just roll over and die, so that the "poor "palestinians"" can have the land..."NEVER AGAIN"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Read the Bible, sport. The part where G-d "sold" Israel to Abraham (a Jew!). But--this is a weak argument on 2 counts... 1.) Muhammad is also a descendent of Abraham, so he could lay claim to the land too. And in the Islamic faith the tricky Lord promised the same land to them too. 2.) To the 2 billion (or however many Christians there are) Jesus came along--and God told them that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covanent. Thus, making the deal he made with Abraham null and void--if you want to think of it that way. So, if you're just going by What the Lord said, well, that's tricky because according to the World Religious traditions, the Almighty either tells many people Many things, or expects us to all get along. Hm, my money's on the second. But, well, that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Isreal4Ever, I was trying quite hard not to do this. But, since we're talking religion here, let's talk religion. And let's focus in on the Holiness Code of Levitcus 17-26. As, I'm sure you as a Jew know, as God's chosen one's the Jews were told to incoporate their Holiness into their daily lives by their actions and every single aspect of their lives and that is how people would know that they were God's people. Correct me if I have miscued my theology here--it's been a little over a year since I've studied Judiasm, so help me out here. Leviticus 19 is where God outlines the code of conduct (the so-called Holiness Code) with which would set apart the Jews by their conduct from the rest of the world. So, I was hoping you could justify your statements about justifiable killing using your religion. Please note that I have taken the liberty of looking up the verses for you, I hope the link works. Otherwise you have go to crosswalk.com and look it up. I recomed the New Revised Version. If you are going to argue this from a faith and religious standpoint, then please read this. Thanks. http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBibl...nrs&language=en I never said I justify killing, UNLESS IT'S IN SELF DEFENSE AND/OR IN TIMES OF WAR!!! Unfortunately, both of these apply re. the "palestinians", who have declared a "jihad" (Holy war) against Israel, Jews (and America). Israel has EVERY right to defend herself! I can't quote Scripture, and don't feel that the Torah applies, what is applicable is Israel's Right to Exist! BTW, I'm all for ending this thread, too! Most of the posters have no knowledge and/or have read nothing re. the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 But--this is a weak argument on 2 counts... 1.) Muhammad is also a descendent of Abraham, so he could lay claim to the land too. And in the Islamic faith the tricky Lord promised the same land to them too. 2.) To the 2 billion (or however many Christians there are) Jesus came along--and God told them that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covanent. Thus, making the deal he made with Abraham null and void--if you want to think of it that way. So, if you're just going by What the Lord said, well, that's tricky because according to the World Religious traditions, the Almighty either tells many people Many things, or expects us to all get along. Hm, my money's on the second. But, well, that's just me. But, since Judaism predates Islam and Christianity.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Agreed. It's one thing to disagree, it's another to sling such slanderous insults. I guess you weren't around when various posters called me racist, Nazi, f***ed in the head, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 "Palis" should be reliant on theor own "leadership" to take care of them. Why should Israel take care of a race of people who are hell-bent on destroying Israel?! The answer is simple. Israel controls the land, and as such controls the economy and movement of the people on this land. Therefore, as an occupying power - they are responsible for the welfare of the Palestinian. No American government official would dare say that they are NOT responsible for the lives of Iraqis affected by our occupation. We take an active role in improving their lives. It's something that the Americans have had a history of doing. See Germany, Japan, France in the 1950s. Even the Phillipines (although our efforts were hampered by World War II) and a corrupt leadership friendly to the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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