israel4ever Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 I don't believe Apu was the one who labeled Sharon a war criminal. According to the informative link CW posted, Belgium (among others) has already done that. You have to admit that with a past like Sharon has, electing him Prime Minister is not going to be seen by the world as evidence that there is an Israeli commitment to peace or justice. I believe in the seeking of reparations for past war crime offenses. I do not fault the families of Holocaust victims one bit for seeking some degree of justice through reparations. (I also believe American Indians have the same rights, but that's just me). Apu has clearly stated his disdain for Arafat, as we all have. He has done an admirable job in pointing out the catch 22 by which Arafat and the PA have their hands effectively cut off while at the same time it is demanded of them that they stop the suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks. The point through all of this is that many participants in this discussion feel that no side can clearly claim to hold the moral high ground since no side has tried to take the moral high road to get there. Violence begets violence, hate begets hate, evil begets evil. Evil means cannot be ethically justified as a way to an end even if the end is just or desired. It is indeed tragic that an apparently workable cease-fire was within reach just a few years ago. While it would be nice if all Palestinian fringe groups could have been forced to heed the call to disarm it is not realistic. Israel had a right to react but should have taken great pains to indicate that it understood that the despicable acts of fringe groups did not speak to the majority of Palestinian's sentiment or even the desire of the PA to try to adhere to the peace process. Too quickly, the moment that should have been seized on had slipped away, and that is the fault of both sides. I have never seen historical Zionists as entirely bad. Consider Eliza Greenblatt, Woody Guthrie's Father-in-law, who like Woody, was passionate about social justice, anti-fascism and union organizing. I like this story, that has nothing to do with the current debate. It talks about (non-Jew) Woody's little known Jewish music and called him am "Underground Railroad for Jewish boys" like Bobby Zimmerman and all. It also mentions Woody's philosphy on religion, which pretty much sums up how I feel on the issue: “Woody loved [all] spirituality,” she says. “He felt all religions sprang from the same well.” For me, I venture as far as saying that even if there is no Divine Agent, it does not invalidate the need and worth of the belief systems of the world at seeing the common denominator in all of it, our own humanity and human frailty. I agree that it is odd and unfortunate that 4ever can with a straight face sign off with 'Shalom' after admitting that he is looking forward to a ring-side seat when it hits the fan. I do not share his faith but I have a more legitimate claim on the word and the sprit of that word than he does (I'm also sure I have a way better Klezmer music collection than he does... so there! I'll be putting on some Klezmer All Stars on the Rio while I gut the grass today I think). And so... Shalom (really!) Peace, Love and Do What You Will 1) Countries like Belgium, France, Germany, etc., are as anti-Israel as Apu is. Their opinions are not worth s***! These countries have had a recors of voting against Israel EVERY time a resolution came before them, while at the same time ignoring violence/terrorism against Jews in their own countries! 2) Say what you will about Sharon, but at least, he was democratically elected, UNLIKE the leaders in the other Arab countries. Israelis elected Sharon by overwhelming numbers because they were (are) sick of being victims of "Palestinian" aggression/terrorism. That's why, if Sharon leaves and/or is forced out of office, you'll see Netanyahu elected. 3) Remember, the 200 peace accors/agreement was shot down by ARAFAT, NOT ISRAEL! Israel conceded EVERY demand of the "Palestinians", but that still wasn't enough. If every Jew in Israel had promised to commit suicide, then Arafat would've agreed to the accord. THERE CANNOT BE PEACE WITH THE "PALESTINIANS" WHILE ARAFAT IS STILL ALIVE...HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ASSASSINATED A LONG TIME AGO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 THERE CANNOT BE PEACE WITH THE "PALESTINIANS" WHILE ARAFAT IS STILL ALIVE...HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ASSASSINATED A LONG TIME AGO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 It's true, before you joined the debate, many posters on this board were indeed starving for factual education and moral guidance. Others just needed a male role model and a shoulder to cry on. Hell, I've always wanted to learn the finer points of Stealthian ninjametry from a real-life Grand Imperial Douchebag, but never felt I could share this burning need with anyone; your gentle, enlightening touch has been liberating. Thank you. Do you speak Ivri't? I am college and law school educated/degrees, and I still don't know what you're talking about! No, I don't speak Hebrew, I haven't since I was Bar Mitzvahed in 74. I am, however, looking to take some Hebrew classes soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Do you disagree with this, Texsox? Arafat has shown through his actions/inactions/words that he is NOT interested in peace with Israel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 I disagree with assasinations, which also happens to be the law in the US. The government that you work for. Now that I answered your question will you get around to answering mine? Is Israel to blame for any of this? Have they done anything wrong and what is it? If you had to assign the blame would it be 100% Palestine or are you capable of admitting that Israel is to blame for some of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Interesting, do they publish a team roster? And what has Israel done wrong in all this? Dude...every news outlet, including the liberal media, of which you obviously favor, links Al Aqsa directly to Arafat. Don't be so naive. Another previous poster said "Aggression breeds aggression!". If the "palis" would stop attacking Israel, Israel would not COUNTER-attack! To answer your last question further, Israel should have taken Arafat out a long time ago! It would have saved a lot of innocent lives, on both sides!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Dude...every news outlet, including the liberal media, of which you obviously favor, links Al Aqsa directly to Arafat. Don't be so naive. Another previous poster said "Aggression breeds aggression!". If the "palis" would stop attacking Israel, Israel would not COUNTER-attack! To answer your last question further, Israel should have taken Arafat out a long time ago! It would have saved a lot of innocent lives, on both sides!!! ROTFLMAO Israel4ever, you are totally incapable of admitting that Israel has made mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 I disagree with assasinations, which also happens to be the law in the US. The government that you work for. Now that I answered your question will you get around to answering mine? Is Israel to blame for any of this? Have they done anything wrong and what is it? If you had to assign the blame would it be 100% Palestine or are you capable of admitting that Israel is to blame for some of this? I honestly feel that Israel is 99.5% in the right re. the dispute with the "Palestinians". This stems from the fact that the "palis" have no legitimate claim to ANY part of Israel...NONE! Not politically, historically and/or biblically...NONE! They have been trying to steal the land and eliminate Israel since before 1967, but, "To the Victor go the spoils". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 ROTFLMAO Israel4ever, you are totally incapable of admitting that Israel has made mistakes. And you are totally incapable of laying the blame where it belongs! Squarely on the heads of Arafat and "pali-leadership"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 And just for the record, based on my friendships over the years, I have always been sympathetic to Israel. I have never met anyone who is more extreme in this than you. I have friends who sent their kids to Israel after college to live for a couple years to finish their educations. They have contributed to several organizations to help the Israel situation. They can talk about mistakes they believe the Israel government has made. If everyone in Israel are as unified as you why are their elections? Why doesn't the leader have 100% of the vote? Could it be even people within Israel have some sense to understand that no man is perfect and that these imperfect men run countries. You have done in more to make me sympathetic to both sides than anything Israel has done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 And just for the record, based on my friendships over the years, I have always been sympathetic to Israel. I have never met anyone who is more extreme in this than you. I have friends who sent their kids to Israel after college to live for a couple years to finish their educations. They have contributed to several organizations to help the Israel situation. They can talk about mistakes they believe the Israel government has made. If everyone in Israel are as unified as you why are their elections? Why doesn't the leader have 100% of the vote? Could it be even people within Israel have some sense to understand that no man is perfect and that these imperfect men run countries. You have done in more to make me sympathetic to both sides than anything Israel has done. You were ripping me on this thread since Day 1! I didn't change your mind at all, you had/displayed anti-Israel sentiment since the beginning of this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 You have done in more to make me sympathetic to both sides than anything Israel has done. Great statement Tex. I actually supported Israel throughout all of this until I saw the hate and hypocracy that have been spouted on here but not a self-proclaimed jew, but a self proclaimed zionist. If this is what their movement is about, it shines a whole new light on what happens over there in my eyes. I haven't seen any love or care for the plight of their fellow man despite what the Torah tells them to believe. To me that saids that they have highjacked the Jewish religion in order to exterminate an entire race of people. And the continued advocation of murders and other dehumanizings of an entire race of people (hmm kinda like the Nazi's huh?) just adds to my new found view point. Congrats I4L you have singlehandedly turned me against Zionism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Also, I said above that Sabra and Shatila were unfortunate mistakes made by Israel, so don't say that I say that Israel has been 100% perfect...I never said that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Great statement Tex. I actually supported Israel throughout all of this until I saw the hate and hypocracy that have been spouted on here but not a self-proclaimed jew, but a self proclaimed zionist. If this is what their movement is about, it shines a whole new light on what happens over there in my eyes. I haven't seen any love or care for the plight of their fellow man despite what the Torah tells them to believe. To me that saids that they have highjacked the Jewish religion in order to exterminate an entire race of people. And the continued advocation of murders and other dehumanizings of an entire race of people (hmm kinda like the Nazi's huh?) just adds to my new found view point. Congrats I4L you have singlehandedly turned me against Zionism. Once again I have to quote a previous poster (Nuke Cleveland?), "Aggression begets aggression". The "palis" are and always have been the aggressors in this conflict, even prior to the 6-day war! You too have been anti-Israel since day 1 of this thread...don't blame me for your anti-Israel attitude...you came into this with them!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 As far as the Nazi comparison (which I deeply resent!), the only group in this dispute that has EVER promoted genocide, was the "Palestinians"! That's a fact, and I can provide SEVERAL quotes by "Palestinian" religious/political leaders to prove it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Dude...every news outlet, including the liberal media, of which you obviously favor, links Al Aqsa directly to Arafat. Don't be so naive. Another previous poster said "Aggression breeds aggression!". If the "palis" would stop attacking Israel, Israel would not COUNTER-attack! To answer your last question further, Israel should have taken Arafat out a long time ago! It would have saved a lot of innocent lives, on both sides!!! 1) If these news sources are so plentiful, then you wouldn't mind showing us some of these sources that link Arafat and Al Aqsa's. Oh yes, from a respected newspaper as well, please. 2) Actually many people here are not "Jew haters" or "Anti-Semites" as you would have many of us believe. I think a lot of people see your lack of argumentation skills and refusal to show facts proving your case as a means that your Zionist case isn't that strong. Who knew that just about all Sox fans here are Jew Haters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 3, 2004 Author Share Posted January 3, 2004 Sharon is, as Brando put it "a blood soaked butcher". Now I realize that the above characterization is perhaps too generic, too vague and as such might have contributed to Israel's confusion and resentment. No, what Sharon is, is a blood-soaked Kosher butcher with a cow fetish. Duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Once again I have to quote a previous poster (Nuke Cleveland?), "Aggression begets aggression". The "palis" are and always have been the aggressors in this conflict, even prior to the 6-day war! You too have been anti-Israel since day 1 of this thread...don't blame me for your anti-Israel attitude...you came into this with them!!! Nope not anti-Israel, just anti-you. You have been the only one preaching hate on this whole thread. Aggresion only begets aggression for mankind, not in God's eyes. An eye for an eye was Hamurabi's code, not God's. To quote from the bible to justify your murderous government, but then ignore that very same bible when it comes to how to treat your fellow man, just goes to show what kind of hypocrate you are. Many, many times I have made biblical references and you have ignored them all. And that is because you are so full of murderous hate, that you will use anything to justify it. God does not want you to kill in his name. That is pretty clear in the bible. There is no asterick in Exodus when God told Moses thou shalt not kill. He also doesn't want you to advocate murder in his name. When you stand at the feet of God in judgement, he will turn his face away from you. It seems to me you have been to deep into your hateful texts and not deep enough in your Torah. Repent your evil ways, and may God have mercy on your soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 3, 2004 Author Share Posted January 3, 2004 Evil means cannot be ethically justified as a way to an end even if the end is just or desired. Someone must not be familiar with McVelli's Guide to Galaxy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 You were ripping me on this thread since Day 1! I didn't change your mind at all, you had/displayed anti-Israel sentiment since the beginning of this thread! Show me the post. I have stated all along that I believe both sides are to blame. Israel has made mistakes as has Palestine. Through you're eyes anyone and everyone who makes that statement is anti Israel. My first post was to be careful. My second was a reminder to both sides that you can't wake up someone who is pretending to be asleep. Here is my third post In reading all these posts I have a thought. Most of the people here are reasonably safe and warm in their homes thousands of miles away. We do not have first hand knowledge and experience of life in the middle east. Yet we have these strong emotions. Imagine what life is like for the people who are actually living this every day? Those people who have known the fallen? Imagine the small bit of geography this is being fought over. People here are getting pissed, typing faster, breathing quicker, blood pressure rising and all they want to do is convince someone they don't really know that they are right. Imagine of your home depended on it? I find it amzing that people could be 100% for either side in this. I have been disgusted by behaviors on both sides. For much of the world, these issues are real for a couple reasons. Oil and the threat of nukes getting tossed. If there were no natural resources this would not be such a big issue. If the world's religions didn't have sacred lands there it would not be so closely debated. I think it's great that we care enough to try and convince someone you only know as a log in screen name that you are correct. Because I am digusted with behavior on both sides I am anti Israel? f*** you. You don't know me. I challenge you to put up of shut up regarding any alledged anti-Israel feelings. You will not find one person I know to agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 3, 2004 Author Share Posted January 3, 2004 Through you're eyes anyone and everyone who makes that statement is anti Israel. If it walks like an antiSemite and it talks like an antiSemite.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 If it walks like an antiSemite and it talks like an antiSemite.... So unless I say Israel is PERFECT I'm an anti-Semite? f*** that. Because I believe Israel is at least 25% to blame for the problems, I'm anti-semite? Everyone over there has made mistakes. The weapons systems aren't perfect. The people aren't perfect. Anyone who thinks in all that mess anyone could remain perfect is kidding themselves. You think both sides don't think of revenge? Both sides aren't as dug in? I don't think everything the US has done is perfect, does that make me anti-American? By your definition all of my Jewish friends are anti-semites. They can see where Israel has made mistakes. So I'm anti-Arab, Anti-semite, anti-american, anti-canadian, anti- my children, anti- my parents, anti- everything because I have never found something to be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 3, 2004 Author Share Posted January 3, 2004 Because I believe Israel is at least 25% to blame for the problems Do you not agree with the Blame Breakdown: 40% Palestine, 20% Israel, 40% Other** ** - Islamic countries, Arab countries, USSR, Europe (especially Britain), UN security counsel, power cabals like FRC, independent wealthniks, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Do you not agree with the I think that is pretty close. There is no way to be precise. The key element in your equation is there are powers around the world with big interests in how this shapes up. Don't underestimate the world communties involvement in all this. Bigger countries than these two have a hand in it. Perhaps left to their own, this could have been worked out a long time ago. I looked at your numbes again, include the US and everyone else in the other. The US has made some mistakes in all this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Damn. It took 41 pages but finally, I'm bored with this. Here's what I learned. A lot of people are just plain out f***ed in the head. Especially some people who work in Homeland Security. Here's the deal: Israel has to be the "bigger man" here. You can argue about moral superiority until you're blue in the face but it doesn't create peaceful change or improve the situation. The problem is that Israel and Palestine both lack leaders who can get BEYOND the obvious intense emotion of the situation and look at what has to happen to effect the change that both sides say they want. My uneducated eyes tell me that only Israel has the resources to improve life for the Palestinian common people who (if they do indeed advocate violence against Israelis) may then change their mindset about what and who Israelis are if they finally see a side of kindness from the people who occupy the land they live on. The average Palestinian has few rights and resources with which to improve their lives. When Israel further exerts its occupational authority on the Palestinians, their quality of life falls. The time has come for Israel to exert its occupational authority to the Palestinians in a more positive way. Only then will the embers feeding the flames of terrorism begin to choke off the stream of terror. The IDF has every right to do what is necessary and morally correct to stem the immediate threat of terror. But what Israel and the US miss the boat on, is that both states fail to address the root causes of terror. We try to manage, not eliminate, in the name of elimination. And that leads to failed policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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