LowerCaseRepublican Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 How is Israel responsible for the terrorism it faces? Hmmm...hunting kids for sport like in the Harper's article, the wall keeping people from their jobs and destroying the Palestinian economy, 85% of the retaliation killings are collateral damage innocents so it's easy to recruit saying "Your family had nothing to do with terrorism and they still killed your [insert family member here]" Living in occupied territories and building illegal settlements, killing innocents in a mosque and then revering the guy as a hero in naming a park after him and writing a popular book about his actions. When you take land that is not yours, put up a wall to keep out all Palestinians and build settlements in land that isn't yours, kill innocents if as collateral damage or hunt them for sport...how can you not expect there to be uprisings using whatever weapons they have. Israel has a very direct role in causing an upsurge in the terrorism it faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 1) Have you ever heard of someone being acquitted for murder by reason of self defense? It IS in the Constitution! 2) Do you think it's okay to kill in war? The laws of man apparently have trumped the laws of the Big G... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 3) Do you believe in the death penalty? Do I believe it exists? Yes. Do I support it? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 By the way, please don't try to belittle the job I do; I don't comment on the fact that you blow men for a living! It's a hobby, not a profession. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 It's a hobby, not a profession. Thank you. Not just a job. It's an Adventure. The problem is that it will lead ultimately to terrorism. Just one short step from blowing men to blowing men up, you know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 The laws of man apparently have trumped the laws of the Big G... If the U.S. constitution is a grander guiding holy text for you than the texts of your stated religion that is quite telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 If the U.S. constitution is a grander guiding holy text for you than the texts of your stated religion that is quite telling. Don't tell me, tell Izzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Don't tell me, tell Izzy. Sorry the quote thing used to quote multiple posts, I forgot that got changed a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I "resorted" to telling you about my educational background because other posters have repeatedly called me "f***ed in the head" and other similar things. I have forgotten more that most of the posters here will ever, or have ever known! That wasn't my point. You can be head of the class from Harvard (or name your best college/university) and still be "f'ed in the head". It's not your education, Einstein. It's the way you portray yourself. People have had far less education then you and I or others and they may be well versed in things that we're not. It's our experiences that define us, not our "education". And I respect those "less educated" all the same. To spew such hatred shows your ignorance and laziness for actually seeking the truth. Don't you owe it to yourself to open your eyes a little? Here. Let's hold hands and say "I (my people) can take a little blame here." Awwww, doesn't that feel better? It's the first step toward recovery, you know. Until you stop answering questions with questions, talking about how it's ok to kill (without regard) or be killed, and some other graceful statements you've made, you portray yourself as very "uneducated". And since you forgot more then we will all together ever know, I guess it really doesn't matter much, does it? To repeat a phrase, Shalom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 And with that.. I say it's time for this thread to be retired. Excellent post Kap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 A lot of what you say is true, and I commend you for writing it in such an eloquent fashion. I have the following comments, though. 1) Israel has NO responsibility to make "palis'" lives better. The Arabs that live in Israel have better lives, and live more comfortably and with more freedoms than 95+% of Arabs living in Arab countries. But, the "palis" are Arabs, thus, the Arab nations have the reponsibility to help their brethren. The problem here is, the rest of the Arab world sees the "palis" as worthless. (i.e. "Black Sunday" when Jordan slaughtered 10,000+ "palis", (you don't know about that though, but if Israel kills 1 Hamas militant, you and your liberal friends cry foul!)). 2) The word "occupation" is a misnomer, the correct term should be "Disputed Territories". Pre-1967, Egypt, Syria, etc., told the Arabs living in Israel, to get out, and when they destroy Israel, these Arabs would then have their own nation. But as you know, Israel kicked the Arabs' asses, and the pre-6day war Israeli Arabs were made "refugees". (TO THE VICTOR GOES THE SPOILS!!!) 3) Root causes of anti-Israel terrorism...children are "brain-washed" from Day 1 to hate the Jews. They are taught that the Jews are the Devil, and the cause of their impoverished conditions. Meanwhile, Arafat is worth BILLIONS! Money that was given to "Palestine" to improve the conditions of it's people. I can see how that is Israel's fault. 4) I am college/law school degreed, and have an above average IQ...you are probably a fry cook or something similar, with a GED. If anyone is "f***ed in the head".... Responses to responses: If Israel has "refugees" living on Israeli controlled land, it either needs to take care of these people, who are forced to rely state support for their survival or expel them, but to let them continue to live in the manner in which they are forced to live is unacceptable. One could make the argument that it would politically unfeasible to expel the 3 million or so people that are not Israeli on the occupied lands. Doing so would probably mean the end of US aid, because although it stands behind Israel, it also needs the rest of the mideast to satisfy its energy needs. Opportunistic OPEC members in the gulf region would probably leverage its oil availability to the United States on its decision over such a matter. Not because these states actually care about the Palestinians but because this chip would be a tipping point to allow the state to gain more influence within that region. This leaves Israel with one viable political option. Take care of the people living within its borders, occupied or otherwise. Jordan may have persecuted Palestinians in the past - but Jordan has also relinquished claim for these lands and called for a Palestinian state to be established. Israel continues to allow an intolerable life for Palestinians. If life is better for Arab Jews, although they face systemic discrimination from within the Israeli state and are generally considered to be the least enfranchised Israelis, why isn't there the ability for Palestinians to become Israeli citizens? This argument doesn't address the fundamental issue here. Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza live in a difficult environment that the Israelis have the best ability to improve. 2. The "disputed territories" stopped being disputed territories in the 1980s when Jordan gave up its claims on those lands and said that they properly belong to the Palestinians. Since the Palestinians actually live on these lands, this no longer makes them "disputed." Further, since these lands, outside of settlements sponosored by the government that are inhabited exclusively by Israel are not considered part of Israel, this would make them an occupied territory, or at least a colony. Another term loaded with negative connotations. 3. This is a chicken/egg argument. People have brains and can think for themselves. I was told in Catholic School that Luther's Reformation was a mistake. I disagreed. I was told in Catholic School that I should wait until marriage before I have sex. I didn't. I was told that gay people were evil. I disagreed, then I even realized I was gay! Wow! Independent thoughts! If people's lives markedly improve and the cause of this improvement is obviously Israeli, mindsets WILL change. Not all mindsets, but they will change rather quickly. A good case study would be that of Russia. Shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union, the communists made a comeback and helped further destroy the economy there. After Yeltsin's equally corrupt political party made a comeback, and the economy started to improve, the fortunes of the communists declined. If people are fat and happier, they are less likely to bomb and be angry. At least at people other than themselves. Will this solve 100% of the terror problem? Of course not, but it will make it more difficult for radical islamists and terrorists to recruit their activists. 4. I wish I was a fry cook! They get paid better. I'm not one to discuss my education, but I too a have a degree (I didn't the "degreed", the second d cost extra) in French, I also studied for a while in a Masters program for Political Science, but I'm not gonna get in a pissing match about someone's education - especially from a school so poor that they give out "degreeds" rather than degrees. I bet the cover of the "diplomad" was probably in "pleatherd" too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Not just a job. It's an Adventure. The problem is that it will lead ultimately to terrorism. Just one short step from blowing men to blowing men up, you know... Well... then I better put my safety harness on. Oh wait, its just a leather one. Anchors away, sailor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Well... then I better put my safety harness on. Oh wait, its just a leather one. Anchors away, sailor! LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 - especially from a school so poor that they give out "degreeds" rather than degrees. I bet the cover of the "diplomad" was probably in "pleatherd" too. I'm with Steff. It would seem that this horse has had the poop kicked out of it and then some. However I will say that this has definitely been an eye-opening "debate". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I'm with Steff. It would seem that this horse has had the poop kicked out of it and then some. However I will say that this has definitely been an eye-opening "debate". Are you kidding me? This one could pass the hot chick thread for total posts by the time this is all said and done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Master Buehrle Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 The following people haven't chimed in yet: Yahntzee Let's go. Assuming that was me, I'm sorry for not replying at any time, I was on vacation with no technology. I would talk about it now, but everythings been threshed over and over in this thread already, but I'm just assuming it, since it is 45 pages long. I also don't want to read every page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 What do you get when you cross Isreal vs. Palestine and the Hot Chicks Thread (besides a hell of a lot of posts)? Oh nevermind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Isreal4Ever, I was trying quite hard not to do this. But, since we're talking religion here, let's talk religion. And let's focus in on the Holiness Code of Levitcus 17-26. As, I'm sure you as a Jew know, as God's chosen one's the Jews were told to incoporate their Holiness into their daily lives by their actions and every single aspect of their lives and that is how people would know that they were God's people. Correct me if I have miscued my theology here--it's been a little over a year since I've studied Judiasm, so help me out here. Leviticus 19 is where God outlines the code of conduct (the so-called Holiness Code) with which would set apart the Jews by their conduct from the rest of the world. So, I was hoping you could justify your statements about justifiable killing using your religion. Please note that I have taken the liberty of looking up the verses for you, I hope the link works. Otherwise you have go to crosswalk.com and look it up. I recomed the New Revised Version. If you are going to argue this from a faith and religious standpoint, then please read this. Thanks. http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBibl...nrs&language=en Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Isreal4Ever, I was trying quite hard not to do this. But, since we're talking religion here, let's talk religion. And let's focus in on the Holiness Code of Levitcus 17-26. As, I'm sure you as a Jew know, as God's chosen one's the Jews were told to incoporate their Holiness into their daily lives by their actions and every single aspect of their lives and that is how people would know that they were God's people. Correct me if I have miscued my theology here--it's been a little over a year since I've studied Judiasm, so help me out here. Leviticus 19 is where God outlines the code of conduct (the so-called Holiness Code) with which would set apart the Jews by their conduct from the rest of the world. So, I was hoping you could justify your statements about justifiable killing using your religion. Please note that I have taken the liberty of looking up the verses for you, I hope the link works. Otherwise you have go to crosswalk.com and look it up. I recomed the New Revised Version. If you are going to argue this from a faith and religious standpoint, then please read this. Thanks. http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBibl...nrs&language=en Don't hold your breath for an answer. I have repeatedly asked I4L to justify himself with somekind of proof, and everytime I have he runs away scared. He can't talk about murdering people, but he can't talk about his religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Would anyone mind posting a summary of each day's events? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Don't hold your breath for an answer. I have repeatedly asked I4L to justify himself with somekind of proof, and everytime I have he runs away scared. He can't talk about murdering people, but he can't talk about his religion. I'm not holding my breath--I enjoy life a little to much for that. But I wanted to nail down for him exactly where in the Torah where the Lord's commandments for the Jews were--this way it's easily accessible for him and he really has no excuse for not reading Holiness Code of his people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Would anyone mind posting a summary of each day's events? Yeah a nightly commentary or sumthin on this thread would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I'm not holding my breath--I enjoy life a little to much for that. But I wanted to nail down for him exactly where in the Torah where the Lord's commandments for the Jews were--this way it's easily accessible for him and he really has no excuse for not reading Holiness Code of his people. You could hold his eyes open and read it to him, but all he will hear is what he wants to hear. He wants something to justify Zionism and the elimination of anyone who stands in its way. And if it doesn't say it, he will ignore it, just like he has every single biblical/Torah reference that I have made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Would anyone mind posting a summary of each day's events? Day 1: isreal4life spouted preposterously one sided opinions on the Isreali-Palastinian situation. Several people tried to point out the closemindedness of his posts. These people were then called Jew-haters and racists. Day 2: See Day 1. Day 3: See Day 2. etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Isreal4Ever, I was trying quite hard not to do this. But, since we're talking religion here, let's talk religion. And let's focus in on the Holiness Code of Levitcus 17-26. As, I'm sure you as a Jew know, as God's chosen one's the Jews were told to incoporate their Holiness into their daily lives by their actions and every single aspect of their lives and that is how people would know that they were God's people. Correct me if I have miscued my theology here--it's been a little over a year since I've studied Judiasm, so help me out here. Leviticus 19 is where God outlines the code of conduct (the so-called Holiness Code) with which would set apart the Jews by their conduct from the rest of the world. So, I was hoping you could justify your statements about justifiable killing using your religion. Please note that I have taken the liberty of looking up the verses for you, I hope the link works. Otherwise you have go to crosswalk.com and look it up. I recomed the New Revised Version. If you are going to argue this from a faith and religious standpoint, then please read this. Thanks. http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBibl...nrs&language=en I am not a "practicing Jew" per se, I go to synagogue 2 times a year, I don't keep kosher, and I don't live my life to the letter of Judaic Law. I make NO apologies for this. I am a "practicing Zionist" though, for this I make NO apologies as well. All I was saying from day 1 of this (now annoying) thread is that in the conflict between Israel and the "Palestinians", Israel is in the right; "Palestine" has NO right to any of the land of Israel, never has, and G-d willing never will! END OF STORY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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