BrandoFan Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 we did not sell our soul to the devil as the cubs have to have that Anti-team player on ther roster Hey, Cubs were only 5 easy outs away from World Series (where Prior, Wood and Co woulda whupped on overswinging Yankees) and are probably odd-on FAVORITES to win the Worls Series in 2004 as soon as they pick up either Maddux or Ivan, which they will. With Sosa we would have won in 2000 (Maggs plays LF and Carlos 1B, no Konerko) as well, which would have made 2001-2003's not only super-fun but also a LOT different in terms of attendance and National reputation. But hey, who needs all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Sorry, but when I read the Sosa bashing I think of Rodman. We hated him when he pushed Pippen into the post. Then he started grabbing MJ misses, we cheered him. We would all love Sammy if he was playing right for the Sox. We'd have the same count up to 500 s***, cheering him towards every record. Sosa-Sox jerseys would be everywhere. Sad but true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FUCKREINSDORF Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 I would rank Marte for Gurrier as one of the best of the last 20 years. I'll agree.Didn't think that one would turn out so good.Marte has been a pleasant surprise. He is the closer of the future.That could have been 2004 if not for Belly Crotch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Sorry, but when I read the Sosa bashing I think of Rodman. We hated him when he pushed Pippen into the post. Then he started grabbing MJ misses, we cheered him. We would all love Sammy if he was playing right for the Sox. We'd have the same count up to 500 s***, cheering him towards every record. Sosa-Sox jerseys would be everywhere. Sad but true. No, Tex, at least not for me. I remember when he frst came to us in the trade with Texas. He was lithe, fast, and what an arm. In the next two years we saw nothing. He did not grow as a player, imn fact he regressed on the field. He was overloaded with jewelry and an obvioous headcase and not coachable and a disruption. I rejoiced when we traded him away. We got what we wanted in 1993. Who knew he would turn in steroid boy but that he is a disruptiuve egomaniac, that we knew. And it isn't remotely guarenteed that had we had Sosa we would have won this or that. That is speculation. Our drafting would be different, our draft positions would have been different perhaps, and our trades would have been different and certainly factoring in personalities in the clubhouse, who knows if anything would have happened postive at all. Maybe we should presume that Herm would have kept Sam-me off the roids and so Sosa would have never hit over 10 home runs. And a sam-me less Cubs team might have had far greater sucess. All of these imagings on a cold winter today are expected. Nothing remotely can be guarenteed. The imaginings for the most part never take in all the possibilities, just selected ones. Without Sam-me we won in 1993, I will give uis 1994, and 2000, and we hung in until midSeptember in 2003. With Sam-me they won in 2003. So we are ahead of the game. Everyone moping because the cubs got 5 outs away - get over it. They didn't get there. Many of us knew they wouldn't there. They had a fluke year in a very weak division, weaker than ours. And for the literary minded, read or see Faust (isn't it currently at the Lyric?), or Mephistopholes, or Faustus, or Mephisto (available on video if not on dvd) or something, and check out what happens to the seller of one's soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Worst trades: any trade Veeck made in 59, the 60s, and 70s, since he consistently traded away our future to save a few bucks and he costs us many pennants. best trade: any made by Trader Laine in the 50s pre Veeck. really best trade - the little one that was made between the cubs and Sox that got Luke Appling to the south side when he headed north thinking he was going to the north side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 cwsox, for every fan like you, 10,000 will cheer. In time even more. I remember the early boos for Rodman, by the end of December only a couple. Sad but true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 cwsox, for every fan like you, 10,000 will cheer. In time even more. I remember the early boos for Rodman, by the end of December only a couple. Sad but true. you have no idea how much ridicule Bulls fans were getting by Pistons fans for adoring Rodman, But it is not a perfect analogy, in fact, far, far, far from it. Rodman came to the Bulls as a ring-bearer, two of them. He wasn't the hot dog steriod me-me-me player that sam-me is. He came to the Bulls as one of the 50 best players of all time and an extraordinary rebounder and very unselfish player. He had already won 2 NBA rings. So the analogy fails. The place where Rodman signing had some predictive merit was back in post season 1996, I was specualting with a Tribe fan about off season moves and it suddenly struck me Rodman was signed by Reinsdorf, the parallel would be Reinsdorf signing Belle. And somewhere you find Joh Hoch, graduate of K College, he will verify that I was the first to call that signing months before it happened. But the analogy of Sosa to Rodman fails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 and check out what happens to the seller of one's soul. Goethe had no way of knowing what would happen if Cubs win the World Series before the Sox do.....The kind of produciton he gave in 2000 and 2001, with Thomas and Maggs and Lee and Valentin protecting him, we score 1000 runs and storm through the playoffs all the way to the World Series. And I detest Shamy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 If the Sox still had Sosa, Magglio probably never would have gotten an opportunity to play. Schueler left him unprotected in the Rule 5 as it was, thank God nobody claimed him. If Sosa wasn't traded, and was still with the Sox, Magglio would have either been released or would have been a throw in in a trade to satisfy Schueler's annual quest for a catcher. The more you look at it, the worse Schueler's performance as GM becomes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Goethe had no way of knowing but Gounod and Bioto did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted January 3, 2004 Author Share Posted January 3, 2004 If the Sox still had Sosa, Magglio probably never would have gotten an opportunity to play. Schueler left him unprotected in the Rule 5 as it was, thank God nobody claimed him. If Sosa wasn't traded, and was still with the Sox, Magglio would have either been released or would have been a throw in in a trade to satisfy Schueler's annual quest for a catcher. The more you look at it, the worse Schueler's performance as GM becomes. Schueler didn't protect Maggs for the Expansion Draft. Let's not forget the Sox were Lucky with Maggs cause Houston almost had him signed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 you have no idea how much ridicule Bulls fans were getting by Pistons fans for adoring Rodman, But it is not a perfect analogy, in fact, far, far, far from it. Rodman came to the Bulls as a ring-bearer, two of them. He wasn't the hot dog steriod me-me-me player that sam-me is. He came to the Bulls as one of the 50 best players of all time and an extraordinary rebounder and very unselfish player. He had already won 2 NBA rings. So the analogy fails. The place where Rodman signing had some predictive merit was back in post season 1996, I was specualting with a Tribe fan about off season moves and it suddenly struck me Rodman was signed by Reinsdorf, the parallel would be Reinsdorf signing Belle. And somewhere you find Joh Hoch, graduate of K College, he will verify that I was the first to call that signing months before it happened. But the analogy of Sosa to Rodman fails. I pointed to Rodman as someone we hated from the rooftops. Between Lame-beer, Thomas, and Rodman, I'm not certain which one we hated more. And we came to cheer him. If Chicago fans can overcome that hatred to cheer a guy they certainly would cheer Sosa. Doesn't fans going from hate to love prove my point more than going from neutral to love? Chicago loves a winner. If Sosa was leading the Sox to a championship instead of the Cubs, many Sox fans would be lined up to cheer. Face it the totality of Sox fans (not just those rabid enought to be here) and the totality of Cub fans aren't that different. Most are from Chicago. cwsox, not everyone is as principled as you. If I had my choice of a Sosa led WS Title or letting the Cubs win one, I'd take the Sosa title every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 but you assume Sosa would have led us to a title and I tell you that he wouldn't Herm would have kept him off roids. we would have lost Mags as explained by another poster. I explained other factors. all we would have ended up as is as a 2nd place finisher or lower with a guy who withiout roids would never hit over 20. If we got Sosa back mid season as we got Klu in 59 to help put us over the top for the pennent, that would be a whole different scenario. (With the reminder we losyt that series). I am saying had we kpet sosa, with no roids,. he would have done nothing for us and if I am wrong, stiull to many ifs and maybe and roster moves that would ahve happeneded and those that wouldn;t thatin no way remotely indicate we would have any world series titles withj sosa, just as the cubs have won none with him. And look at all the teams that won without him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 I'm not supposing any of that. My original post is we would cheer him. If I understood you correctly, you think we would not. That the rank and file Sox fans would be booing him unlike the Cub fans who cheered. I'm saying we would cheer. We're* no different than any other franchise. If he was hitting 40-50 home runs on the south side, making that little hop, blowing kisses, we would be buying it hook, line, and sinker. Even if it was on the way to a second place finish. For proof I pointed out Rodman. We cheered him with every rebound. This was a guy we hated at one point. We never hated Sosa. *Again, I say we as all Sox fans not just the ones rabid enough to be here. The other 300,000 who attend a couple games a year, maybe own a cap they got on free hat day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 if you are only argung that we would have cheered him - and yu are not arging that we would have win many titles - I think he would have entered Royce status - his Sox numbers were nothing if he had developed without steriods but yet developed, maybe he would ahve reacged Ray Durham status and we would have cheered him some Sox fans have never really responsed to hot dogs, that is not what a Sox player is the revolving circus from Peptione to the college of coaches to Beck to Sosa has always been anorth side thing. the south side has always gone for players. look at what Belle did - and he was never embraced, he was rejected. Belle was no Sosa but the hit dog act would wear thin on the south side, I think, to me, as I say it, personal opinion, may be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 but Gounod and Bioto did! I knew you would do it as soon as I pressed 'add reply'...BASTARDO!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 For proof I pointed out Rodman. We cheered him with every rebound. This was a guy we hated at one point. We never hated Sosa In terms of production, given the limited impact a player can make on a baseball team no matter how good and that s***ty line-up protection (read: he got nothing to hit) he had on the Cubs, Sosa's 1998-2001 numbers place much closer to Jordan than to Rodman. Sosa in RF. Maggs in LF. Carlos at 1B....Hurt....that's the ticket. And Herm would have keep him off the roids? You buy into the myth that no one on the Sox is on the juice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 I guess I never really expressed myself clearly. Here's the scenario I'm thinking. It's 2003 and Sammy's career is exactly like it is except it was in a Sox uniform. The steroid suspicions, the home run chase, the corked bat, everything happened in a Sox uniform. It's the final weekend of the season. The Sox are battling for a playoff spot. It's in the late innings and Sammy comes to the plate. I contend Sox fans are cheering every step from the on deck circle to the batters box. We've rationalized he made a mistake and served his suspension. Now I am also certain that a lot of sox fans on this board would not be 100% happy but we wouldn't be booing. Remember there are probably 1,000 Sox fans rabid enough to be discussing Uribe for hours. The other 500,000 occassional fans would be doing the Sammy hop in Sox black. Would Sox fans have embraced him as much as Cub fans? I hope not. I know the hardcore won't. As I believe someone else pointed out, we would have more casual fans who do come out to see him. Since they would be wearing Sox hats and coming to games, we would have to consider them Sox fans. cw, sorry if I was confusing in all this. I hope this is clearer. I don't think trading Sammy for any of our All-Stars would have made a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 It's the final weekend of the season. The Sox are battling for a playoff spot. It's in the late innings and Sammy comes to the plate. I contend Sox fans are cheering every step from the on deck circle to the batters box. We've rationalized he made a mistake and served his suspension Of course. I should have added in Palestine vs Israel thread that there is NO Magical Sox Fan either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 I do agree with cwsox on a big thing. Sox fans in particular and Chicago fans have a low tolerance for hot dogs. We've been blessed with some great gentleman athletes with strong character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 I do agree with cwsox on a big thing. Sox fans in particular and Chicago fans have a low tolerance for hot dogs. We've been blessed with some great gentleman athletes with strong character. Maybe you're right. Chicago = best f***ing city in the universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 I don't blame the Veeck regime for any bad trades. Veeck truly had no money, unlike Dork who has some cash. I love Veeck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 I don't blame the Veeck regime for any bad trades. Veeck truly had no money, unlike Dork who has some cash. I love Veeck. I'll bet you weren;t old enough to have lived through either his two regimes. Veeck gutted us by trading future for old and cheap to meet payroll and cover his other expenses. Fans who lived through it - as has been posted on ths thread with secifics - don't recall his trades with any fondness at all. If Veeck got you to buy into the image of him as baseball showman, he'd smile and take your money. But as Esau did in the Bible,. he was constanting trading away our birthright for a bowl of porridge. We could have been a real power in the 60s rather than also rans which ran out of players, and again in the Veeck 70s-80s era we traded away our potential to compete leaving us bereft of good players and a sink into mediocrity. In many ways Veeck is a hero of mine. My dog once chewed an autographed book by him. But he is no Saint Sox or Saiunst Baseball and his celebrity highlights the fun side of Veeck and obscures how he destroyed several teams - to the point where he gutted the Browns and then sold them to Baltimore, the destruction of out futue in Veeck Sox I and where in Veeck SoxII he would have sold us to Denver had he not been stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmookie Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 a bad tade not the worst trade was that todd ritchie deal he gave us nothing and u want to fill out the rotation KIP WELLS AND JOSH FOGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even though they aren't great they still would be solid #4 and #5 guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubsSuck1 Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 But as Esau did in the Bible,. he was constanting trading away our birthright for a bowl of porridge. Oh, what an anology. veeck to the bible. That takes some skill, my man, rock on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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