Mathew Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Love the guy or hate the guy 2 things that should not be b****ed about. 1. Alomar not resigning is not KW's fault, he turned down a better offer to play for 'Zona move on. (I don't know the rules on resigning a guy to a pay cut either but that may have played into it also.) 2. I remember when Maggs signed and I can't remember people being upset, this 25% s*** and overpaid crap needs to be considered in context, people are b****ing that 10 million is the most we can pay for him well.... Magglio Ordonez OF CHW Signed Jul 2001 - 3 years/$29.5M 2002: $6.5M 2003: $9.0M 2004: $14.0M We got a deal in 02' we pay more in 04' that's how baseball works and it was less then 10 mill per, totalled for 3 years. His hands are tied with us being over budget (which he doesn't set) and he seems to have been trying to make trades so although he deserves plenty of criticism for other past errors, some I've read is very undue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 as long as youre not defending the billy botch trade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 KW gets a bad rap around here but he would do a lot more if he was controlling the purse strings. If Sox fans should be pissed at anyone they should be pissed at Uncle Jerry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 KW gets a bad rap around here but he would do a lot more if he was controlling the purse strings. If Sox fans should be pissed at anyone they should be pissed at Uncle Jerry. KW gets a bad rap around here but he would do a lot more if he was controlling the purse strings. Sure, like giving us a payroll like Baltimore, the Dodgers or the Rangers and still having nothing to show for it! I'll give KW the benefit of the doubt on Magglio, because 3 years ago when his contract was signed, no one reasonably would predict that the market would change as much as it has. The Sox still had a strong nucleus and expected to compete at a higher level the next few years and also, they were in the middle of a year where the payroll was $65 million. KW had no way of knowing that the payroll 3 years later would be only $58 million. I think KW's offer for Colon was probably more than fair. The Angels just stepped up and paid more. Based on the landscape I see today, I think the Angels took a big risk, a bigger one than I would have taken. I don't blame everything on KW like some, but I don't think he is a good GM either. I do think it is his fault that Alomar did not sign. Ribbie DID NOT sign a better deal with Arizona. He took less with them. He did not re-sign with the Sox because something happened in the negotiation. Whether it was KW changing his offer, being sneaky behind Alomar's agent's back or what, no one really knows. But when a guy publicly expresses a desire to come back and when it is widely reported the Sox were going to (or did in some fashion) offer him much more than he eventually got something stinks. I can smell the stench all the way here in Birmingham on that one. KW has been known to rub people the wrong way before. He certainly isn't known as a big people person. People have to understand that when it comes to negotiating and signing free agents. I firmly believe his personality/approach turn people off. Sometimes it is about the money and sometimes it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 i think you can stick up for KW all you want but the fact of the matter is that he hasn't done 1 thing to make this team better for 2004. come'on Kenny get creative. make a deal.. make this team better. I don't care if it means trading Jon Rauch. Kris Honel, Neal Cotts or Joe Borchard. LETS WIN NOW.. NOT LATER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Watch out, Mathew. Talking sense and logic about KW is liable to get you lynched. And if KW traded Cotts, Borchard, or Honel, he'd be hauled off to the insane asylum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 here's my thought regarding those prospects. they wont be valuable members of the team until 2005 or later. By that time Maggs, Thomas, Loaiza and others will be gone. so you are just replacing one All-Star with a potential future All-Star.. basically a net zero gain. now if you trade one or more of those guys and get some studs in the organization you have a better chance of winning a playoff series now and getting some fans back in the seats in '04 and '05.. thus increasing attendance and payroll for the future. I would think that the team would be better off in this scenario rather than having a bunch of prospects to fill the roles of departing players a year or two down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 the fact that JR is a tight ass is all the more reason why kenny should resign...we need a GM that knows what the hell he is doing...kenny would be fine on a team where the owner was willing to throw money away to fix his mistakes but that doesnt happen here...if he makes a mistake we pay for it...usually for years on end.. billy beane..dont you want a real challenge??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 the fact that JR is a tight ass is all the more reason why kenny should resign...we need a GM that knows what the hell he is doing...kenny would be fine on a team where the owner was willing to throw money away to fix his mistakes but that doesnt happen here...if he makes a mistake we pay for it...usually for years on end.. billy beane..dont you want a real challenge??? Billy Beane has won as many playoff series as KW. The fact he gets there has more to do with 3 great starting pitchers, now maybe 4 than anything else. Jermaine Dye was a complete waste of valuable money and he just got rid of his only catcher. I am not completly sold on Billy Beane being that great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Billy Beane has won as many playoff series as KW. The fact he gets there has more to do with 3 great starting pitchers, now maybe 4 than anything else. Jermaine Dye was a complete waste of valuable money and he just got rid of his only catcher. I am not completly sold on Billy Beane being that great. i guess the foulke for botch trade made up for dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac9001 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 i guess the foulke for botch trade made up for dye Don't forget he gave up Neal Cotts in the deal. They had Foulke for one season, we'll have Cotts for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Don't forget he gave up Neal Cotts in the deal. They had Foulke for one season, we'll have Cotts for a while. Thank you Mac. Oakland sits there with nothing from that trade, save a draft choice or two for Foulke (I think). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Thank you Mac. Oakland sits there with nothing from that trade, save a draft choice or two for Foulke (I think). And a playoff appearance last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Don't forget he gave up Neal Cotts in the deal. They had Foulke for one season, we'll have Cotts for a while. and cotts has done exactly what???...it could very well be we have seen the last of neil cotts..he could very easily go the route of corwin malone...how many raved about him 2 years ago???..myself included..foulke's an all star..cotts is an unproven prospect.. besides..whatever billy beane did with kieth foulke after last year if he didnt make that trade and he kept botch as his closer i doubt oakland would have finished above 500..they went back to the playoffs because of foulke...ill bet oakland , whoever they use as their closer , he will be better than botch..wouldnt it be a b**** if it ended up being joe valntine ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 and cotts has done exactly what???...it could very well be we have seen the last of neil cotts..he could very easily go the route of corwin malone...how many raved about him 2 years ago???..myself included..foulke's an all star..cotts is an unproven prospect.. besides..whatever billy beane did with kieth foulke after last year if he didnt make that trade and he kept botch as his closer i doubt oakland would have finished above 500..they went back to the playoffs because of foulke...ill bet oakland , whoever they use as their closer , he will be better than botch..wouldnt it be a b**** if it ended up being joe valntine ... Joe Valentine is no longer part of the A's organization. They traded him to the Reds last year. He'll be at AAA Louisville this year, where I'll get to see what he's made of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Joe Valentine is no longer part of the A's organization. They traded him to the Reds last year. He'll be at AAA Louisville this year, where I'll get to see what he's made of. well i guess it wont be a b**** then thanks for the info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Just in case you were wondering or hadn't read this, Arthur Rhodes is going to close for the A's next year. I doubt he can live up to his predecessors: Isringhausen, Koch and Foulke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Just in case you were wondering or hadn't read this, Arthur Rhodes is going to close for the A's next year. I doubt he can live up to his predecessors: Isringhausen, Koch and Foulke. i didnt read that..will be intersting...i beliebe balt tried him as a closer at one time and he failed..the rap on rhodes has been although he has one of the best arms in baseball he doesnt handle the big time pressure situations well...have to see if he has matured over the years.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac9001 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 and cotts has done exactly what???...it could very well be we have seen the last of neil cotts..he could very easily go the route of corwin malone...how many raved about him 2 years ago???..myself included..foulke's an all star..cotts is an unproven prospect.. besides..whatever billy beane did with kieth foulke after last year if he didnt make that trade and he kept botch as his closer i doubt oakland would have finished above 500..they went back to the playoffs because of foulke...ill bet oakland , whoever they use as their closer , he will be better than botch..wouldnt it be a b**** if it ended up being joe valntine ... The point i was making is that Cotts could still shift the trade heavily in our favor. I'm not a big Cotts fan, but the potential is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Billy Beane has won as many playoff series as KW. Billy doesn't give a s*** about winning the World Series. The playoffs, according to him, are just lucky. It's his job to get them there by acquiring players, whether it be via trade or via free agency or via his minor league system. If his team wins the World Series, more credit to him....he doesn't care about that. Billy Beane has gotten the A's to the playoffs 4 straight years, and his team has won 100+ games 3 years in a row. How many teams has KW been the GM of that have won 90 games? And just as a throw in, KW has had MORE money then Beane. Beane's average payroll has probably been about $40-$45 mill, not our $50-$55 mill....that's an extra $5-15 mill that has been spent, and that is quite a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hex Rudler Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 The only thing wrong with Kenny bashing is that it's too easy. I don't care that he gave Maggs $14 MM for 2004. He deserves it. But $8MM to PK and $6MM to Koch is insane. Then, all of those baaaaaaad deals. He has cost us two playoff years and he gave away too many quality prospects for next to zip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 The only thing wrong with Kenny bashing is that it's too easy. I don't care that he gave Maggs $14 MM for 2004. He deserves it. But $8MM to PK and $6MM to Koch is insane. Then, all of those baaaaaaad deals. He has cost us two playoff years and he gave away too many quality prospects for next to zip. He could have had Foulke back for less than that 6 mil and he let him go. BAD deal. Foulke was money last year while Koch was, well, MIA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 He could have had Foulke back for less than that 6 mil and he let him go. BAD deal. Foulke was money last year while Koch was, well, MIA. But we got Cotts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 He could have had Foulke back for less than that 6 mil and he let him go. BAD deal. Foulke was money last year while Koch was, well, MIA. Yet, in 2002, Koch was better than Foulke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierSox Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Koch was the rolaids relief man of the year in 2002. Didnt look like a bad trade then. Im counting on Koch coming back this year and regaining his form from 2 yrs. ago and Cotts could push this deal in the sox favor if he pans out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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