Spiff Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 In what what drunken stupor-induced twilight zone is Tom Brady better than Pay-Man I'd like to know? Comparing him to Montana, Elway, Farve, Unitas is a blasphemy of the worst kind. It's like saying Steve Yzerman or Joe Sakic are better than Mario Lemeiux or Jagr because they have more championships and playoff success.....Super Bowl my ass. Nonsense. TEAM EFFORT-- look it up.....But then again some people still think David Terrel is immensely talented so, you know....typical. Like Farve week before, Manning had a s***ty game (it didn't help that Marvin Harrison is SUCH a pussy-- just one good separation route in the 4th Q would have tied the game up), no doubt, but where were you when he was smashing Broncos and Chiefs, setting all kinds of records....while NE barely sqeezed by a FG? NE has arguably the best secondary of the last 20 years if not of all time. Add the weather factor to give NE a huge advantage before the game started....If Brady had to throw against Patriot secondary, he'd be 10 for 25, no TDs.....And if Manning was throwing in the dome or at least warm weather, he'd still toss a 3+ TDS.... I was gonna root for NE in the SB (I rooted for them against Colts cause Indy/Manning fans blow), but all this Brady arrogance changed my mind. Go Panthers. Meh. I was right here saying Manning was overrated, because those defenses were awful and any QB would have torn them apart. New England was playing a good team in Tennessee. Best secondary of the last 20 years, if not all-time? I'm big on the Pats, but I would hesitate before I made that claim. 2001 Ravens had Rod Woodson, Chris McAlister, Duane Starks and Carnell Lake. 1994 49ers had Deion, Merton Hanks, Tim McDonald and Eric Davis. There have been other comparable, if not better ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 I was right here saying Manning was overrated, because those defenses were awful and any QB would have torn them apart. New England was playing a good team in Tennessee. Best secondary of the last 20 years, if not all-time? I'm big on the Pats, but I would hesitate before I made that claim. 2001 Ravens had Rod Woodson, Chris McAlister, Duane Starks and Carnell Lake. 1994 49ers had Deion, Merton Hanks, Tim McDonald and Eric Davis. There have been other comparable, if not better ones. dont forget the 85 bears secondary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 In what what drunken stupor-induced twilight zone is Tom Brady better than Pay-Man I'd like to know? Comparing him to Montana, Elway, Farve, Unitas is a blasphemy of the worst kind. It's like saying Steve Yzerman or Joe Sakic are better than Mario Lemeiux or Jagr because they have more championships and playoff success.....Super Bowl my ass. Nonsense. TEAM EFFORT-- look it up.....But then again some people still think David Terrel is immensely talented so, you know....typical. Like Farve week before, Manning had a s***ty game (it didn't help that Marvin Harrison is SUCH a pussy-- just one good separation route in the 4th Q would have tied the game up), no doubt, but where were you when he was smashing Broncos and Chiefs, setting all kinds of records....while NE barely sqeezed by a FG? NE has arguably the best secondary of the last 20 years if not of all time. Add the weather factor to give NE a huge advantage before the game started....If Brady had to throw against Patriot secondary, he'd be 10 for 25, no TDs.....And if Manning was throwing in the dome or at least warm weather, he'd still toss a 3+ TDS.... I was gonna root for NE in the SB (I rooted for them against Colts cause Indy/Manning fans blow), but all this Brady arrogance changed my mind. Go Panthers. Meh. im taking brady over manning everytime....you cant argue with winning...that's what he does... i got a feeling manning might be traveling the dan marino highway..getting to the playoffs year after year but never quite getting it done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 dont forget the 85 bears secondary That crossed my mind, but I couldn't remember who was in it and I was going on memory. I figured it was up there but I didn't want to name it if I wasn't sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 im taking brady over manning everytime....you cant argue with winning I sure can and I do: Jose Lima and Rick Helling both won 20 games once and Patrick Roy is the all-time winnigest goalie despite the fact he can't hold a candle to either Hasek or Brodeaur. Etc, etc, etc. Manning has a higher career completion %, more yards per completiion, high QB ratings and every conceivable peripheral stat than Brady....Sooner or later he gets some good D behind him and rattles off a few consecutive Super Bowls/MVP awards to shut all the doubters up-- I've it happen a million times in every sport--"winners" like Brady become "losers" when the support is not there....Don't get me wrong, Brady will still be in the top 5 QBs in the league, but Manning has more pure talent plain and simple, and in the long run the Big Talent will manifest itself.. And even Manning doesn't win a single SB, who cares? Is Dan Marino not much better than that asshat McMahnon because he has no ring? Common, this is not tennis where your fate is in your hands and your only-- this is a TEAM sport, ya dig? And yes NE secondary IS arguably better than either '94 49ners OR the 85 Bears-- they are more vicious hitters and better prepared strategically even if they rotated in and out a few different people since the 2002 squad won it. Regardless, the point was Brady could have just as easily sucked if he had to go up against it, and I feel unti drier conditions Manning would have STILL picked Patriots apart like he did during the REGULAR season....Ya dig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I sure can and I do: Jose Lima and Rick Helling both won 20 games once and Patrick Roy is the all-time winnigest goalie despite the fact he can't hold a candle to either Hasek or Brodeaur. Etc, etc, etc. Manning has a higher career completion %, more yards per completiion, high QB ratings and every conceivable peripheral stat than Brady....Sooner or later he gets some good D behind him and rattles off a few consecutive Super Bowls/MVP awards to shut all the doubters up-- I've it happen a million times in every sport--"winners" like Brady become "losers" when the support is not there....Don't get me wrong, Brady will still be in the top 5 QBs in the league, but Manning has more pure talent plain and simple, and in the long run the Big Talent will manifest itself.. And even Manning doesn't win a single SB, who cares? Is Dan Marino not much better than that asshat McMahnon because he has no ring? Common, this is not tennis where your fate is in your hands and your only-- this is a TEAM sport, ya dig? And yes NE secondary IS arguably better than either '94 49ners OR the 85 Bears-- they are more vicious hitters and better prepared strategically even if they rotated in and out a few different people since the 2002 squad won it. Regardless, the point was Brady could have just as easily sucked if he had to go up against it, and I feel unti drier conditions Manning would have STILL picked Patriots apart like he did during the REGULAR season....Ya dig? IF Manning had a defense. And Brady could be better IF he was throwing to Marvin Harrison and handing off to Edgerrin James. IFs don't matter, results do. Roy doesn't hold a candle to Brodeur? HA. You say Brady's greatness is a product of his team. Look at Brodeur with the Devils. Trap trap trap, get one goal and sit back on defense. You could put Steve Shields on the Devils and they'd win the Cup. Brodeur has never even won the Vezina, Roy won it 3 times. This year Brodeur is 7th in GAA and 15th in save pct, real spectacular numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 IF Manning had a defense. And Brady could be better IF he was throwing to Marvin Harrison and handing off to Edgerrin James. IFs don't matter, results do. Roy doesn't hold a candle to Brodeur? HA. You say Brady's greatness is a product of his team. Look at Brodeur with the Devils. Trap trap trap, get one goal and sit back on defense. You could put Steve Shields on the Devils and they'd win the Cup. Brodeur has never even won the Vezina, Roy won it 3 times. This year Brodeur is 7th in GAA and 15th in save pct, real spectacular numbers. By your logic, Troy Aikman is literally 3 times the QB Dan Marino is..........I guess time will show which one of us is right. And the reason there IS an "IF game" that is played by so many fans and experts is because, um, REALITY is consists of many factors and variables, and your ignoring them doesn't make them go away.....Tom Brady IS a good QB, but Peyton Manning is a VERY good QB and will become a great one when it's all said and done. Broadeur has a HIGHER save % and a MUCH lower career GAA. So that's that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 By your logic, Troy Aikman is literally 3 times the QB Dan Marino is..........I guess time will show which one of us is right. And the reason there IS an "IF game" that is played by so many fans and experts is because, um, REALITY is consists of many factors and variables, and your ignoring them doesn't make them go away.....Tom Brady IS a good QB, but Peyton Manning is a VERY good QB and will become a great one when it's all said and done. Broadeur has a HIGHER save % and a MUCH lower career GAA. So that's that. Uh, no that's not it. Roy played in the 80's when there was a lot more scoring. Brodeur has played his whole career in the nineties behind that New Jersey defensive wall. Roy is the best goalie of all-time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 In what what drunken stupor-induced twilight zone is Tom Brady better than Pay-Man I'd like to know? Comparing him to Montana, Elway, Farve, Unitas is a blasphemy of the worst kind. It's like saying Steve Yzerman or Joe Sakic are better than Mario Lemeiux or Jagr because they have more championships and playoff success.....Super Bowl my ass. Nonsense. TEAM EFFORT-- look it up.....But then again some people still think David Terrel is immensely talented so, you know....typical. Like Farve week before, Manning had a s***ty game (it didn't help that Marvin Harrison is SUCH a pussy-- just one good separation route in the 4th Q would have tied the game up), no doubt, but where were you when he was smashing Broncos and Chiefs, setting all kinds of records....while NE barely sqeezed by a FG? NE has arguably the best secondary of the last 20 years if not of all time. Add the weather factor to give NE a huge advantage before the game started....If Brady had to throw against Patriot secondary, he'd be 10 for 25, no TDs.....And if Manning was throwing in the dome or at least warm weather, he'd still toss a 3+ TDS.... I was gonna root for NE in the SB (I rooted for them against Colts cause Indy/Manning fans blow), but all this Brady arrogance changed my mind. Go Panthers. Meh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Uh, no that's not it. Roy played in the 80's when there was a lot more scoring. Brodeur has played his whole career in the nineties behind that New Jersey defensive wall. Roy is the best goalie of all-time. Whoa Spiff, that's a big IF wrapped in an IF with an IFFY center.... There might indeed have been more offense (which is why Mario dominating mid-90s is more impressive than Gretzky dominating early 80s), but how does that change the amount of shots and saves the goalies had to deal with? Are you saying players in the 80's were shooting harder/more accurately? Any expert will tell you that Bradeur is easily as good as Roy pound for pound. He is Roger Clemens to Roy's Nolan Ryan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Whoa Spiff, that's a big IF wrapped in an IF with an IFFY center.... There might indeed have been more offense (which is why Mario dominating mid-90s is more impressive than Gretzky dominating early 80s), but how does that change the amount of shots and saves the goalies had to deal with? Are you saying players in the 80's were shooting harder/more accurately? Any expert will tell you that Bradeur is easily as good as Roy pound for pound. He is Roger Clemens to Roy's Nolan Ryan. It is a known fact that the 80's had more scoring. Goalies had less padding, there wasn't as much trapping, grabbing and holding. Look at the goal numbers that led the league every year. 1980-1981 Mike Bossy 68 1981-1982 Wayne Gretzky 92 1982-1983 Wayne Gretzky 71 1983-1984 Wayne Gretzky 87 1984-1985 Wayne Gretzky 73 1985-1986 Jari Kurri 68 1986-1987 Wayne Gretzky 62 1987-1988 Mario Lemieux 70 1988-1989 Mario Lemieux 85 1989-1990 Brett Hull 72 1990-1991 Brett Hull 86 1991-1992 Brett Hull 70 1992-1993 (T) Teemu Selanne 76 1992-1993 (T) Alexander Mogiliny 76 1993-1994 Pavel Bure 60 1994-1995 Peter Bondra 34 (Lockout-shortened year) 1995-1996 Mario Lemieux 69 1996-1997 Keith Tkachuk 52 1997-1998 Peter Bondra 52 & Teemu Selanne 52 1998-1999 Teemu Selanne 47 1999-2000 Pavel Bure 58 2000-2001 Pavel Bure 59 Notice anything? Where it used to take 70-80 goals to lead the league, now it only takes about 50-60. Brodeur started playing in '93-'94. Roy started in '85-'86. Obvioiusly it was more difficult being a goalie back then when there were more goals being scored, so his numbers (which are still comparable to Brodeur's) are going to be inflated because of the era. If you are not aware of the goal fluctuation that occurred in the eighties and the subsequent dip in scoring of the nineties, or at least won't concede it once you are aware of it, then there's no point in having this discussion. Brodeur is a good goalie, but no way is he better than Roy. Show me where an "expert" said he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 It is a known fact that the 80's had more scoring. Goalies had less padding, there wasn't as much trapping, grabbing and holding. Look at the goal numbers that led the league every year. Notice anything? Where it used to take 70-80 goals to lead the league, now it only takes about 50-60. Brodeur started playing in '93-'94. Roy started in '85-'86. Obvioiusly it was more difficult being a goalie back then when there were more goals being scored, so his numbers (which are still comparable to Brodeur's) are going to be inflated because of the era. If you are not aware of the goal fluctuation that occurred in the eighties and the subsequent dip in scoring of the nineties, or at least won't concede it once you are aware of it, then there's no point in having this discussion. Brodeur is a good goalie, but no way is he better than Roy. Show me where an "expert" said he was. Excuses, excuses, excuses.....where have I heard that before? When I make them for Manning, it doesn't count, but when you do for Roy, it should? Actually I may have underrated Roy the way you and other have Manning.....but the fact remains that ever since Broadeur played his first full season in 95-96 season and up until today (covering 8 seasons), he's EASILY matched what Roy put up in terms of save % in that span and still kicked his ass in GAA and I am not even going to go into shut-outs cux Roy was never too big on them......Yeah, but NJ defense....yeah but Avalanche offense....yeah but Roy was 30.....yeah but Broadeur was 22..... And are you telling me that you've never encountered a single scouting report where it states that Broadeur is the most talented goalie this side of Hasek who doesn't get enough credit for NJ success or some such superlative? Where have you been in the last decade? Not that I needed anybody to tell me anything since I've been playing and watching hockey since I was about 5yo-- don't forget WHERE I am from.....lololololol Calling him "good"? CuJo is "good", Khabi is 'good"......Martin Bradeur is gonna go down as one of the all-time greats if he puts up another 5-6+ seasons like that. And 80's? I already said something about that in the Mario vs Gretzky debate.......Trapping is all good and dandy, but you also leave put the fact that forwards today are bigger and faster and stronger and BETTER because of the foreigner influx than they were before early 90's......So who is to say that Roy didn't "pad" his stats in the softer 80's?.....See two can play the excuse game. Bottomline: Manning is a better, more talented QB than Brady and some day you will see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 More talented? Probably. Better? No. They are not mutually exclusive. Todd Maronivich was talented, where did that get him? Brady is better, he gets it done when Manning doesn't. Whatever quality that is, he has more of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Guys shoot 5-10 harder NOW, then they did in 80's, based on the new 1 piece stick, so you bring up a very good point. Steroids and supplements and more sophisticated training that weren't available 20-25 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 More talented? Probably. Better? No. They are not mutually exclusive. Todd Maronivich was talented, where did that get him? Brady is better, he gets it done when Manning doesn't. Whatever quality that is, he has more of it. That's the best point I have seen made on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Whatever quality that is, he has more of it. And that difference-making quality is called "being a good QB and fortunate enough to play for the New England Patriots". Look, if we were talking about Rich Gannon or Brad Johnson or even Kurt Warner, there'd be no arguement cuz Brady is better.....But this is Payton f***in; Manning we're talking about. Show some respect. With him, NE would be undefeated instaed of mere 14-2 and would smoke Titans and Colts D something bad. Brady is better than Manning in a way Jeter is better than Garciappara.....he isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Nope. There's no way to know what the Pats would be like if they had Manning as a quarterback. The rest of the team always believes in Brady, would they always believe in Manning? Would Manning make as few mistakes as Brady, or instead go for the spectacular play and put the defense in bad positions all the time? Would Manning put up good numbers in the cold of Foxboro, with guys like Antwain Smith and Troy Brown instead of James and Harrison? You think you could just plug in Manning and everything would be the same, but I don't think so. You think the team suits the quarterback, but maybe the quarterback suits the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 . The rest of the team always believes in Brady, would they always believe in Manning? Are you saying that Pats players wouldn't try as hard for Manning? That they would defy the coach more? That they would care less about their own stats and abouyt increasing their market value and by extension their ability to feed their families better.....if Peyton was the QB? Or that the styles wouldn't mesh? What? All I know is that there would be less pressure on Manning to throw 3+ TDS every game, he wouldn't try to go for a "spectacular" play on every other down and the fielding position that his D would afford him would be, well, much better. Again, time will judge which one of us is right. IMO Mannig is a better player and NE would be better with him than Colts with Brady. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Brady = 1/2 way to Montana after 3 seasons as starter- and undefeated in playoff appearances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Brady = 1/2 way to Montana after 3 seasons as starter- and undefeated in playoff appearances .....so are NE special team grunts....undefeated. You point? Ah yes, that a good QB is in fact a great QB. I can play that game, too: I say Kurt Warner is Johnny Unitas. And Troy Aikman, of course, is Abraham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 .....so are NE special team grunts....undefeated. You point? Ah yes, that a good QB is in fact a great QB. I can play that game, too: I say Kurt Warner is Johnny Unitas. And Troy Aikman, of course, is Abraham. watching the game when delhomme comopleted the pass to the 15 with 1:45 left and used a time out immediately i said "HUGE MISTAKE"...they should haveran 40 seconfs off the clock before calling that time out..because even if they score now they will leave brady just enought time to beat them.. they did and he did.. you just knew brady was gonna lead the pats down the field and win that game...it was a given.. you only get that feeling when you are watching greatness..tom brady , well on his way to joe montana status Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 doesnt hurt when the opposing kicker gives you the ball on the 40 and their secondary doesnt feel like covering anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 .....so are NE special team grunts....undefeated. You point? this year's special teams pklayers, yes, but this claim goes for 6 consecutive palyoff appearances, not 3. So it would apply to Vinitieri and Ty Law but we are talking qbs here. That is the point. Manning will always be blocked by someone from michigan. Manning lost the Hesiman to Woodson. Manning will never be the best as long as Tom Brady is playing. That is "best" as defined by "winning the Super Bowl." See baggio's post above. There was no doubt that Brady was going tot ake them down the field. Didn't matgter the Panther's kicker helped them out because (1) that is part of the game and (2) the pats gave that back on the offensive pass interferance call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 their secondary doesnt feel like covering anyone true. They laid down and stopped playing. They said, hell, we have a minute to go and tied, lets f*** this up and not cover anyone and lose. Right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 watching the game when delhomme comopleted the pass to the 15 with 1:45 left and used a time out immediately i said "HUGE MISTAKE"...they should haveran 40 seconfs off the clock before calling that time out..because even if they score now they will leave brady just enought time to beat them.. they did and he did.. you just knew brady was gonna lead the pats down the field and win that game...it was a given.. you only get that feeling when you are watching greatness..tom brady , well on his way to joe montana status You and I think a like. I knew when the Panthers left New England a minute and then some on the clock that it was over. Kasay kicking it out of bounds just helped speed the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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