For those thinking Trump would buy the Nets

[LostInBoston]

My Webpage

 

Bought by a Brooklyn developer. Perhaps he was talking about the Sox.... We can only hope...

[cwsox]

those hoping Trump buys the Sox are really foolish. (That is the nicest way I can phrase that, because the thought scares me so much. Sorry to any offended.)

 

The dude buying the Nets - moving them to Brooklyn.

 

Too bad New Jersey fans.

 

Since everything that Trump has is in NY - since his whole life is in NY - except for the stray casino or building - why would anyone not picture Trump moving the Sox to NY so he could go head to head with Streinbrenner in THEIR town.

 

They don't sing Chicago, Chicago, they sing New York, New York.

 

Trump has no loyalty here. Everything he cares about is in NY.

 

It didn't take the Nets 3 hours to be moved after they were bought.

 

Those who ignore reality will get it handed to them.

[Spiff]

The Nets are moving cause New Jersey sucks as a rule.

[cwsox]

The Nets are moving cause New Jersey sucks as a rule.

that may be a cool thing to say with all the guys, ha ha ha, lets rip on jersey, but it is not reality

 

how many millions of people live there and call it home

 

New Jersey was the home to a team that has had some real success in the recent past and has fans very devoted to its team

 

how many people would say Chicago sucks as a rule

 

insulting New Jersey doesn't change the facts

 

a change of ownership may bring nothing good

 

and people with massive new york real estate holdings who buy a sports franchise are buying it for their reasons, not yours, not mine, not ours, but for their own reasons

 

those who ignore reality will get it handed back to them

[Dick Allen]

Those who think that Trump would bump the payroll up to $100 million or so need to get a reality check. Trump is all about making money, as much money as possible. No way would he gamble that big. I really doubt he is negotiating buying the White Sox. If there is a real estate deal to be had around USCF, I'm quite sure JR has already pounced on it. He is extremely savvy , especially in that area.

[Spiff]

that may be a cool thing to say with all the guys, ha ha ha, lets rip on jersey, but it is not reality

 

how many millions of people live there and call it home

 

New Jersey was the home to a team that has had some real success in the recent past and has fans very devoted to its team

 

how many people would say Chicago sucks as a rule

 

insulting New Jersey doesn't change the facts

 

a change of ownership may bring nothing good

 

and people with massive new york real estate holdings who buy a sports franchise are buying it for their reasons, not yours, not mine, not ours, but for their own reasons

 

those who ignore reality will get it handed back to them

Oh yes, real devoted fans. That is why they are second to last in attendance with a first place team who has been to the NBA finals the past two years.

 

Bottom line is the Meadowlands arena is falling apart, nobody goes to the games, East Rutherford offers nothing outside of sports arenas. Have you been there? I have, it's nothing special. It was a no-brainer to move that team.

 

Just because they moved to New York doesn't mean the Sox would move there if they were bought. But I don't care either way, at least they'd be closer to me.

[cwsox]

But I don't care either way, at least they'd be closer to me.

so there it is...

[Spiff]

so there it is...

There what is? Honesty? Do you really think most of the people on this board who don't live in Chicago would be upset if the Sox suddenly moved into their backyard? I don't.

 

Hell, move em to Boston, build 'em a stadium, I'll go to so many Boston White Sox games, I'll be able to wach all their games, the media will talk about them all the time, it will be a dream come true. They can jump into the NL East, the Expos can move to Vegas and join the AL West, it will be splendid.

[cwsox]

There what is? Honesty?

Honesty? You say that is if your virtue was challenged. It isn't and wasn't.

 

What I ask is if all of your thinking about things begins and ends with what is convenient for you.

[southsider2k5]

that may be a cool thing to say with all the guys, ha ha ha, lets rip on jersey, but it is not reality

 

how many millions of people live there and call it home

 

New Jersey was the home to a team that has had some real success in the recent past and has fans very devoted to its team

 

how many people would say Chicago sucks as a rule

 

insulting New Jersey doesn't change the facts

 

a change of ownership may bring nothing good

 

and people with massive new york real estate holdings who buy a sports franchise are buying it for their reasons, not yours, not mine, not ours, but for their own reasons

 

those who ignore reality will get it handed back to them

Keep in mind Trump is muscling into the Chicago market now. They are building a skyscraper on the Sun Times site.

[Spiff]

Honesty?  You say that is if your virtue was challenged.  It isn't and wasn't.

 

What I ask is if all of your thinking about things begins and ends with what is convenient for you.

Alot of it does, yes. It's human nature. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves.

 

You say Trump would move the Sox to New York because he cares about New York, not Chicago. Now Trump seems to be a somewhat successful man, wouldn't you say he is thinking about what would be convenient to him? Is it that foreign a concept?

[cwsox]

Alot of it does, yes.  It's human nature.  Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves.

not true.

 

lot of people live thinking what is good for others.

 

Now, I know, holy Jesus, who would believe that, let alone teach it.

 

I might recommend Victor Frankel's book about the search for meaning in life, but, the hell with it, it is too inconvenient to me to do that

[Spiff]

not true.

 

lot of people live thinking what is good for others.

 

Now, I know, holy Jesus, who would believe that, let alone teach it.

 

I might recommend Victor Frankel's book about the search for meaning in life, but, the hell with it, it is too inconvenient to me to do that

I'm not saying everything I do is motivated by selfishness. I should have said alot of my thinking begins with me but rarely ends with me. I think about other people alot, and I'm not going to go naming examples, but even on this board, I've inconvenienced myself to help people.

 

It is like, when there is one slice of pizza left and I'm still hungry but I know other people might want it. Will I just take it? No. Will I ask anyone if they want it? Yes. Will I be upset if they don't take it? No. If that's being selfish, fine.

 

With the White Sox, I can't control what they do and where they go. I never get to see them on tv, and I've only been able to get to a few games at Comiskey. If they moved from Chicago, somewhere closer, I'm not gonna cry about it. Sure I'll feel bad about the people of Chicago losing their team. That said, I'd take advantage of the new-found opportunities. Not doing so would be foolish.

[cwsox]

It would devastate a lot of people.

 

More than just too bad for them.

 

I don't live in Chicago either.

 

They could put the team in Grand Rapids and it would be great for me but it wouldn't be the White Sox anymore.

 

A team is not just a corporation that can be moved there, moved here. whatever.

 

A team is an intregal part of the community where it is from.

 

The Sox are Chicago - the franchise in another city would not be the same Sox.

 

Teams are not movable pieces on a chessboard, they become the heart of where they are. And they are in the heart of the people who have lived their lives with them.

 

Boston has Sox, Cincinnati has Red Stockings, but neither team is the Sox we love. Put them elsewhere and they are not the team we love.

 

And f*** new found opportunties. Loyalty and faitfuhlness mean a lot more than being a prostitute for a few dollars more.

[Spiff]

You dare bring loyalty into a discussion about sports, that's blasphemous. We all know what loyalty is in sports, it is an illusion, a romantic idea that never has been and never will never be.

 

Teams move, that is the reality. Yes it devistates the people left behind. I never said it wouldn't. But ask greasywheels how he feels about the Baltimore Colts playing in Indianapolis. Ask a Dodger fan about Brooklyn. Ask a Ravens fan how long he cried about the Browns leaving Cleveland.

 

And the Ravens are an interesting example, because here they were toiling in Cleveland. They had never been to a Super Bowl, let alone won one. Their last NFL title had been before the Super Bowl even came about. Everyone was outraged when Modell moved them, but the reality was they couldn't compete in their situation. They were playing in a stadium that had become irrelevant, they couldn't generate the capital they needed. Modell did what was good for HIS TEAM. He moved them to Baltimore, into a new stadium. Within a few years they were Super Bowl champions.

 

The White Sox situation isn't as dire as the Browns' was. They don't, however, win their own city. They can't compete with the Cubs. They don't draw like they could in a city where they were number one. Obviously, moving them to New York or Boston (I was half-serious about that anyway, it would never happen) wouldn't change that. But when you look at this team, the path they have followed for the last 80 or so years, and the path they are going down, it is not exactly the model of success.

 

The Sox moving might not be the worst thing for the TEAM. You say they shouldn't move because they wouldn't be the same team, because you love this team and any other version wouldn't be the same. Whose interests are you thinking of, yours or theirs?

[cwsox]

You dare bring loyalty into a discussion about sports, that's blasphemous.

That is so full of s*** that to be honest I didn't even read the rest of your post.

 

The Sox are not an intellectual, theororetical proposition to the vast majority of fans.

 

The Sox are not something that do not really exist.

 

Friends go to games together.

 

Families go to games together.

 

The memories that are at the corner of 35th and Shields - have you ever been there - are not something that is irrelevant, movable, transient.

 

Loyalty - loyalty to what is a vital center of the life of thosuands of people - is far more important than the ponderings of someone who has no emotional investment and would play games with peoples lives as if they have no meaning.

 

Life may have no loyalty to you. I have pity for you. But it is too easy and too flippant to be so blase about something that has deep meaning for so many people.

 

Loyalty and faithfulness count. Where people go with the families and friends for their important times together, that is loyalty and faithfulness. That is what counts.

[Spiff]

Yes I've been there. I loved it, but I'd love it alot more if it were closer to me.

 

This is not The View, my friend. Let's not get all emotional.

 

The bottom line is obviously loyalty exists in the fan-team relationship. But loyalty alone is not enough to override all in sports. Sports, both professional and collegiate, are governed by the dollar. If you think loyalty matters to an owner, if you think any given team president will hesitate for ONE SECOND if they have an opportunity to move a team to a better situation because it may upset people, you are ignoring reality.

 

And like you said yourself, those who ignore reality will get it handed back to them.

[cwsox]

Yes I've been there.  I loved it, but I'd love it alot more if it were closer to me.

 

This is not The View, my friend. Let's not get all emotional.

 

The bottom line is obviously loyalty exists in the fan-team relationship.  But loyalty alone is not enough to override all in sports.  Sports, both professional and collegiate, are governed by the dollar.  If you think loyalty matters to an owner, if you think any given team president will hesitate for ONE SECOND if they have an opportunity to move a team to a better situation because it may upset people, you are ignoring reality.

 

And like you said yourself, those who ignore reality will get it handed back to them.

if it were closer to you, it wouldn't be the Chicago White Sox.

 

Such cynicism in someone your age is sad.

 

There has been loyalty in sports and in the Sox despite your decimation of history.

 

But to take the emotion out of it, how about I am going to really hope that FSU loss every game to Miami and Florida from now until forever until your admit that there is a place for loyalty and emotion in sports.

 

Funny you were the guy who thought it was so great when th FSU players were jumping up and down on the Florida Gator thing on the field and you thought that was a fine expression of a great moment of sports and it got you going. What makes that game great? Why don't you become a Miami fan? You value success over everything else and they kick FSUs ass all the time - what is loyalty to you? Why aren't you switching to Miami and show me what happens when you have a chance for "a better situation"?

[Spiff]

So cynicism at your age, like telling your young grandson early on that santa claus doesn't exist is alright? What is the difference between Santa Claus and an owner caring about the fans? They are both illusions.

 

Next, go ahead and root for Miami and Florida, I don't give a s***. You are obviously missing my point.

 

Did i not just concede that loyalty exists in the fan-team relationship? OBVIOUSLY fans are loyal. Obviously there is loyalty from the fans to their teams, or there would be no sports, but it does not work (or rarely works) both ways.

 

But then you go and make some random analogy that doesn't even work, I don't know. I don't care. It's so not worth getting into this.

[Chisoxfn]

Vince, I gotta say, I doubt most owners give a rats behidn about the fans. The only thing they really care about are the fans coming to the stadium and giving them the money, because it is a business to them.

 

Now there are exceptions, but with so few teams being family run or owned by a family anymore (The O'Malley's were so great for the Dodgers) it means that you have a lot more corporations around and corporations have a bottom line and if they aren't reaching that bottom line in a city, then they will do what they can to move to greener pastures.

 

That will kill some fans and they will switch allegiances, other fans will stick with that team, but its what happens now in sports because corporations are getting more and more involved in the ownership aspect. Didn't JR threaten to move in order to get New Comiskey built?? I'm fuzzy on that era cause I was pretty young, but if in fact he did that, I see that as him thinking for himself.

 

There is nothing wrong with someone thinking for themselves, sometimes you got to think about yourself. I always think about others, but there are times and situations where you got to think about yourself.

 

As far as fans go, they are definately incredibly loyal to their teams. Look at everyone that posts here, I'd say 99% of us are complete diehard fans that would never change allegiances. Hell, we've all put up with the Sox this long, now were stuck with them and will continue to hope that one day they will turn things around and win the series.

 

Afterall, without hope what is the point of being a fan and when they finally win, all that losing and crap we've all put up with over the years of watching the Sox will make it even sweeter.

[cwsox]

But then you go and make some random analogy that doesn't even work, I don't know.  I don't care.  It's so not worth getting into this.

"Random analogy" is your way of saying you have nothing to say when you want it both ways?

 

Reality is that there is no Santa Claus. Are you advocating teaching children to believe in fantasy? I believe in teaching them reality. And reality includes consistency.

 

There have many times when owners have shown incredible loyalty to their communities. And many times not. Jas mentions O'Malley, I believe - I doubt anyone in Brooklyn would call him loyal. I wouldn't, not all. But to really study baseball history - sports history - human history - is to discover that people are incredibly complex and have a variety of motives.

 

JR has been so often accused of overly being loyal - to Krause, to Frank, to Selig, to whomever he has been charged with being overly loyal to at any moment. He has never shown any signs of disloyalty to the Sox fans or Chicago, in fact, the opposite. He can be faulted or second guessed for many things but lack of loyalty? What makes that whole issue incredibl;y amusing is the number of posts we have from people who think (1) JR should spend money and (2) no one should go to games until he does. The totally mutally exclusiveness of those positons escapes some. Others say (1) get rid of Frank because he has declined and anyone who says keep Frank out of loyalty is not smart and (2) JR is not loyal to us or (2a) Frank is not loyal to us or (2b) something else.

 

Whatever JRs faults, loyalty is not something he has lacked.

 

However, Trump is a man who has made a career out of lack of loyalty. White guys with big hair who act like they are the big s***s in the world and buy what they want (Trump, Cuban, etc) always get a certain fan club - maybe people want to be like them. Fine. But a Trump will show no loyalty whatsoever to Chicago fans - but as you stated, you don't care. Right now there are thousands of Net fans who are crushed their team is being taken from them - where this all began - and you mocked New Jersey. Fine. You care nothing for New Jersey nor for Chicago baseball tradition. If the Sox are a movable commodity to you - well, they are, you said so. By my way of thinking, you are the one with no loyalty - it seems to me that were you to be an owner, you'd sell out anywhere to get a better deal.

 

Here is another random analogy. You fall in love with a woman. You marry her. She cheats on you and leaves you for another man because she gets a better offer. Who could blame her? You are merely New Jersey to her, you are Chicago, and what was that to her when her Trump came along? Or would you feel betrayed, that love and your commitment to her should have counted for something? Is there something greater in the balance of life than money? Is there something more important than making the best deal at any moment?

 

As you stated, you don't care about the Sox staying in Chicago. You feel nothing for the fans in NJ who lost their team and all teams are, are movable financial commodities to you except your FSU team and if one speaks of them that is a "random analogy." Oh well.

[Spiff]

If I am New Jersey to her then I wasn't trying, and I suck. Therefore, it is understandable for her to want out.

 

It was a random analogy because 1) it involved fan interest and not owner interest, and 2) I never said I would do anything. You assume because I throw an idea out there (moving the Sox) that I would automatically do it. And because I explore the shameful of idea of moving them, all of a sudden I don't care about Chicago baseball history. That's fine, think what you want.

 

Am I the crazy one here? I Know Jason has made some good points. I want to hear from other people on this, especially those who live outside of Chicago. Am I the only dispicable hellion here who wouldn't mind if the Sox mo-mo-mo-OH I CAN'T EVEN SAY IT WITHOUT CRYING.

[danman31]

The Nets are a bad analogy because they are like the Marlins of the NBA. The fans don't show, but the team is good. Of course the Marlins need a stadium, but that's not the point. Cw, you have to take it less personally. And for the love of God stop saying everything you say as if you are Mr. Know It All and you are always right.

[cwsox]

Am I the crazy one here? I Know Jason has made some good points. I want to hear from other people on this, especially those who live outside of Chicago.  Am I the only dispicable hellion here who wouldn't mind if the Sox mo-mo-mo-OH I CAN'T EVEN SAY IT WITHOUT CRYING.

What I really miss from you Spiff is the conection of heart and mind. If this mythical love left you because you were New Jersey to her, I doubt you would be so blase. And is life only a matter of zero based gains and losses?

 

With all respect for you - which I have, our conversation has been extended and searching and exploring and free and frank - I suggest that whether it means anything to you whether the Sox move or not, a sense of compassion for those 16-1.9 million who go every year to whom going to see their team is a part of their life more so than it is yours, that compassion for how they would feel would be commendable.

 

Jas has made some good points. So perhaps have you and so perhaps have I. I ask again: is there more important things in life than the balance sheet?

 

I am turning in. While we have been having this conversation, I have been workling on a sermon for a community service for Sunday afternoon that I am preaching. The largest plant in our community - employs 2700 in a town of 8000 - that has been here since the 19th century just announced they are being shut down by their foreign corporate owners because if they move they can save $81 million a year but if they stay and accept the incentive offers from the city and state they would only save $76 million a year. So 2700 people will lose their jobs in a rural area where they are no other jobs in one of the highest unemployment states in the country so a Swedish corporation, Electrolux, can make an additional $5 million a year. Are there more important things than a balance sheet?

 

But trust me, the Electrolux issue has nothing to do with my deep passion for not seeing the Sox move. I have lived through moving scares too many times - that is an issue for me. The Sox belong in Chicago at Comiskey/USCF. I have seen them at Comerica, Tiger Stadium, Wrigley, Miller - can see them lots of places but home is at 35th and Shields and I do indeed hope I die with them still resident there - so I can have 60% of my ashes deposted there (the other 40%, the Big House).

 

Good talking to you, Spiff. Take care, and good night.

[cwsox]

The Nets are a bad analogy because they are like the Marlins of the NBA. The fans don't show, but the team is good. Of course the Marlins need a stadium, but that's not the point. Cw, you have to take it less personally. And for the love of God stop saying everything you say as if you are Mr. Know It All and you are always right.

Danman, I remember you taking shots at me for a long time. Ain't no thing. Spiff and I have been exchanging views at length and that shows a mutual respect for each other to keep talking and listening which perhaps you don't understand - no invective, no insults, no f*** yous, just the frank exchange of opinions where we disagree. Were I to think I am always right, I would not be on a message board. I have been in dialogue with Spiff to learn from him. I think Spiff writes well and with passion, too. The board should be more like that. You want to take shots at my writing style or me personally? Go to it.

 

And indeed, I do know a great deal. So do many others here. Many know things that I do not know. I know a few things others do not know. That is what makes a community. To say more would be to return your insults in kind so I won't. Have a pleasant evening.