kenny williams interview

[southsideirish]

You never asked me.....

 

Though Sirotka got hurt at the time, so Toronto didn't benefit either. However, I never thought bringing in Wells was the answer.

 

One player will never be the answer in my opinion. To say that he wouldn't have helped push us over the top I think would have been a lie. I think every fan of the Sox thought he was enough, if healthy, to put us into the playoffs.

[cwsox]

I think every fan of the Sox thought he was enough, if healthy, to put us into the playoffs.

I didn't.

 

I never cared for D Wells, couldn't stand him from when he was on the Tigers on, and I thought at the time that Sirotka could/would take his game up maybe a notch more and maybe even be a real ace and stopper for us.

 

As it turned out Siro never pitched again and the trade was something we actually got a little more out of then Toronto did, since we had D Wells for a few months and our young pitchers especially MB said they learned some good tuff from him.

 

It makes no difference what we thought then but ususally not every fan agrees on anything, in fact, never in my experience does every fan agree on any one thing. Which is good for soxtalk since if we all agreed all the time it would be boring as hell.

[greasywheels121]

One player will never be the answer in my opinion. To say that he wouldn't have helped push us over the top I think would have been a lie. I think every fan of the Sox thought he was enough, if healthy, to put us into the playoffs.

Well I'm definitely not every fan, Wells has a history of being outspoken and causing troubles inside the clubhouse. I didn't see one reason that he would not have done that here. And imagine that, he proved me right. He hopped on Frank, saying he was being a baby for not playing when he was hurt. And that injury just so happened to keep him out the remainder of the 2001 season. Since you're having trouble thinking Ozzie isn't doing anything wrong, what about David Wells in 2001?

[Rex Hudler]

Yes I know this has happened, however who has more payroll to work with? Danny Evans has done nothing to improve that team. Why would you have traded Grudz and Karros for Hundley? You say KW has done nothing to improve our team? What the hell has Evans done to improve that? WIth more payroll to use?

Shall we go over this AGAIN???

 

Grudz and Karros had both been in decline in LA, putting up non-starter like numbers on big salaries.

 

Evans traded two big salaries and took one big one in return. Evans had done consulting work with the Cubs after he left the Sox and knew Hundley from then. He knew Hundley had gone through some personal problems and had worked through them. By taking on Hundley, he was giving up two declining players with big salaries and taking a chance on someone he knew who had straightened his life out. If Hundley could help off the bench, then it was a win-win situation.

 

Joey Thurston was set to take over at 2B and everyone thought he was ready to play everyday in the Majors. There was no doubt that he could put up the same number Grudz had on much less money.

 

He then went out and got MCGriff to play 1B to replace Karros. Even though McGriff had slowed down in recent years, he hit more HR's the previous year than both Karros and Grudz COMBINED> He had 20 less RBI than both COMBINED. McGriff had NEVER been on the DL in his career, so he felt like he would get a guaranteed level of production from him.

 

So going into that trade, it made sense. You had someone to replace both Grudz and Karros and it was reasonable to believe the replacements would produce more. He picked up Hundley, giving the guy a second chance, hoping he could give him help off the bench.

 

There is no way that Evans could now that McGriff would spend time on the DL for the first time in his career. Thurston being a total bust was not even thought of because he had done everything necessary at that point to show he was ready.

 

The move backfired because of the above reasons and because Karros and Grudz found new life in Wrigley. Would Karros and Grudz have had such a good year if they were back in Dodger Stadium? No one knows, but it is doubtful.

 

It is easy to look at a trade in hindsight, but to truly evaluate why a trade was made, you have to look at the big picture and looking at that picture at the time the trade was made, it looked to be nowhere near the bad deal it turned out to be.

[Rex Hudler]

I believe he said the decisions on minor league teams are not up to him.

 

That's BS! Kenny is the GM. If the "real story" is bad enough that it would keep Wally from getting another job in baseball, then it is HIS JOB to eliminate the problem. He is the GM, who is ultimately the BOSS of Fontaine.

 

Perhaps he and Fontaine agreed not to offer Wally another contract. If that is the case, say it and don't throw the decision in Bob's lap.

 

You can justify whatever you want, but KW contradicted himself by making a stupid comment because he was mad at what he heard or read in yesterday's paper.

 

KW would be the type of witness a lawyer would salivate to cross-examine because he contradits himself all the damned time. Too bad the guys on the radio were more interested in tossing him softballs rather than holding him responsible for his answers.

[Rex Hudler]

On that #1 farm system issue, exactly who was traded away, from the farm, that has contributed to a major league team?

 

Jim, when you trade away all of your depth in your farm system it causes you to rush guys sooner than necessary and has a negative effect on your system as a whole. You end up with guys in AAA that should be in AA, with guys in Chicago that aren't ready, etc.

 

You are correct in that not many of the guys that have been traded away have become MLB regulars, but chopping into the depth of your system will hurt it. It hurt it then and the trades made last July will hurt it now. The key is, if you are going to gut the depth of your system, you better get results. Unfortunately, KW has not had a lot of luck in that category.

[cwsox]

<clip> KW contradicted himself by making a stupid comment because he was mad at what he heard or read in yesterday's paper.

 

KW would be the type of witness a lawyer would salivate to cross-examine because he contradits himself all the damned time.  Too bad the guys on the radio were more interested in tossing him softballs rather than holding him responsible for his answers.

I really appreciate your persepctive.

 

That was what I was feeling in my gut but having you say it makes me feel more confident about what I was thinking.

 

thanks!

[southsideirish]

Shall we go over this AGAIN???

 

Grudz and Karros had both been in decline in LA, putting up non-starter like numbers on big salaries.

 

Evans traded two big salaries and took one big one in return. Evans had done consulting work with the Cubs after he left the Sox and knew Hundley from then. He knew Hundley had gone through some personal problems and had worked through them. By taking on Hundley, he was giving up two declining players with big salaries and taking a chance on someone he knew who had straightened his life out. If Hundley could help off the bench, then it was a win-win situation.

 

Joey Thurston was set to take over at 2B and everyone thought he was ready to play everyday in the Majors. There was no doubt that he could put up the same number Grudz had on much less money.

 

He then went out and got MCGriff to play 1B to replace Karros. Even though McGriff had slowed down in recent years, he hit more HR's the previous year than both Karros and Grudz COMBINED> He had 20 less RBI than both COMBINED. McGriff had NEVER been on the DL in his career, so he felt like he would get a guaranteed level of production from him.

 

So going into that trade, it made sense. You had someone to replace both Grudz and Karros and it was reasonable to believe the replacements would produce more. He picked up Hundley, giving the guy a second chance, hoping he could give him help off the bench.

 

There is no way that Evans could now that McGriff would spend time on the DL for the first time in his career. Thurston being a total bust was not even thought of because he had done everything necessary at that point to show he was ready.

 

The move backfired because of the above reasons and because Karros and Grudz found new life in Wrigley. Would Karros and Grudz have had such a good year if they were back in Dodger Stadium? No one knows, but it is doubtful.

 

It is easy to look at a trade in hindsight, but to truly evaluate why a trade was made, you have to look at the big picture and looking at that picture at the time the trade was made, it looked to be nowhere near the bad deal it turned out to be

 

So what you are basically saying is that the trade didnt work out. Which is what Kenny gets blamed for all the time. Sometimes the trade looks good to start with, but it just doesnt work out.

[southsideirish]

That's BS! Kenny is the GM. If the "real story" is bad enough that it would keep Wally from getting another job in baseball, then it is HIS JOB to eliminate the problem. He is the GM, who is ultimately the BOSS of Fontaine.

 

Perhaps he and Fontaine agreed not to offer Wally another contract. If that is the case, say it and don't throw the decision in Bob's lap.

 

I believe this is all speculation as I really doubt you know how this or any other baseball front office works. So I will take these statements with a grain of salt. I also don't see where Kenny contradicted himself if it was Fontaines call or Wilders call. He can know just about anything he wants about anyone. I don't believe all the minor league operations and decisions are based on what Kenny believes should happen. Does he have input? Yes I believe he does. Does he have the final say? No I believe that is Wilders job. I can't believe you would know anymore about this as I doubt you have ever had a job in a profession baseball team's front office.

[southsideirish]

Jim, when you trade away all of your depth in your farm system it causes you to rush guys sooner than necessary and has a negative effect on your system as a whole. You end up with guys in AAA that should be in AA, with guys in Chicago that aren't ready, etc.

 

I would love to see an example of this. If the guys are not ready to move up then they are not forced. You can always sign guys from other places as fillers. Sometimes players are also throw in a trade as minor league fillers. I would like to see this assumption or theory based on some sort of fact.

[Rex Hudler]

So what you are basically saying is that the trade didnt work out. Which is what Kenny gets blamed for all the time. Sometimes the trade looks good to start with, but it just doesnt work out.

 

Very True....... However in the case of Todd Ritchie, I don't think there is much argument that trade was based on solid logic.

[southsideirish]

Well I'm definitely not every fan, Wells has a history of being outspoken and causing troubles inside the clubhouse. I didn't see one reason that he would not have done that here. And imagine that, he proved me right. He hopped on Frank, saying he was being a baby for not playing when he was hurt. And that injury just so happened to keep him out the remainder of the 2001 season. Since you're having trouble thinking Ozzie isn't doing anything wrong, what about David Wells in 2001?

 

I agree with you. I never said it was a good trade. It also didn't hurt us during that season. In fact Buehrle credits Wells for showing him some things and how to pitch. I would not say it was a bad trade either. I think Wells opening up his mouth divided the clubhouse, but with all the injuries we had that season it really didn't seem to matter. I don't see the comparison to what Ozzie said to what Wells said. Wells basically called Thomas a sissy when he didnt even know the extent of the injury. Oz has never done anything that stupid.

[southsideirish]

Very True....... However in the case of Todd Ritchie, I don't think there is much argument that trade was based on solid logic.

 

Oh please. The Todd Ritchie trade has no way of being defended. The only thing I can think of is that Kenny was desperate and needed a starter. He lost that one big time.

[Rex Hudler]

I believe this is all speculation as I really doubt you know how this or any other baseball front office works. So I will take these statements with a grain of salt. I also don't see where Kenny contradicted himself if it was Fontaines call or Wilders call. He can know just about anything he wants about anyone. I don't believe all the minor league operations and decisions are based on what Kenny believes should happen. Does he have input? Yes I believe he does. Does he have the final say? No I believe that is Wilders job. I can't believe you would know anymore about this as I doubt you have ever had a job in a profession baseball team's front office.

 

I know a lot more than you think I know..... LOL

 

I will try to explain this to you one more time in the simplest terms.

 

I am your boss. You and I have talked and we both have information about another employee that is bad enough to keep that person from getting another job in our industry. Obviously it would be bad enough than that we know we cannot keep him.

 

If I say to you, knowing the above information, that is it your call to keep him or let him go, then I am seriously neglecting my job.

 

So after the employee is let go, I tell everyone that it was not my call to get rid of him. But then admit I have such damaging information that if I choose to let it out, would keep him from getting another job.

 

How does that make me look? I knew about this supposed information, yet I let someone who works under me have the decision to possibly keep him on board? I would look like the biggest idiot of a boss in the world.

 

Unless I am that big of an idiot, then that story must be wrong. Either I told you to get rid of the guy or there is not such drastically damaging information. Either way, I contradict myself or color myself as an idiot if I make the above comments to the media.

[southsideirish]

I know a lot more than you think I know..... LOL

 

I will try to explain this to you one more time in the simplest terms.

 

I am your boss. You and I have talked and we both have information about another employee that is bad enough to keep that person from getting another job in our industry. Obviously it would be bad enough than that we know we cannot keep him.

 

If I say to you, knowing the above information, that is it your call to keep him or let him go, then I am seriously neglecting my job.

 

So after the employee is let go, I tell everyone that it was not my call to get rid of him. But then admit I have such damaging information that if I choose to let it out, would keep him from getting another job.

 

How does that make me look? I knew about this supposed information, yet I let someone who works under me have the decision to possibly keep him on board? I would look like the biggest idiot of a boss in the world.

 

Unless I am that big of an idiot, then that story must be wrong. Either I told you to get rid of the guy or there is not such drastically damaging information. Either way, I contradict myself or color myself as an idiot if I make the above comments to the media.

 

First of all let me say this. I am not doubting your knowledge on anything, but I do think a lot is speculation.

 

Ok, now again, as I said, I think Kenny does have influence and input. I don't believe it is his decision to make. It was Fontaine's or Wilder's decision to make. He is not lying there. Now when he says he has this information then I am sure he shared it with Fontaine and Wilder. It was then up to them to make a decision on what to do. They made that decision. Would you keep someone on that did what he suupposedly did? I think not.

 

I think if it got to the point where Wilder or Fontaine wanted to keep him on as manger then Kenny would have a decision to make. I don't believe it ever got that far. The final decision was made by Wilder and Fontaine. Would they not have been doing their job if they didnt make that decision? I don't know, depends on your opinion on what trully happened.

 

Would Kenny not have been doing his job by witholding that information? I believe so. You need to help each other out in an organization.

[baggio202]

Why would you have traded Grudz and Karros for Hundley?

that was probably evans best move for the dodgers (outside of perez and jordan for that thug sheffield) the dodgers saved 5 million dollars in payroll..evans then used that 5 milion to bring in fred mcgriff...it was strickly a payroll move..he said so at the time and also said they had no plans for hundley to replace loduca...hundley was a multi million dollar back up because evans was trying to clean up the previous GM's screw ups...

 

lok at it this way for the cubs...they took on an extra 5 million in payroll in that trade..if they didnt do that they have an extra 5 million to throw at maddux right now...you can analyze that trade to death but look at it for what it was for the dodgers..a salary dump

[baggio202]

I agree with you. I never said it was a good trade. It also didn't hurt us during that season. In fact Buehrle credits Wells for showing him some things and how to pitch. I would not say it was a bad trade either. I think Wells opening up his mouth divided the clubhouse, but with all the injuries we had that season it really didn't seem to matter. I don't see the comparison to what Ozzie said to what Wells said. Wells basically called Thomas a sissy when he didnt even know the extent of the injury. Oz has never done anything that stupid.

it didnt hurt us???.....you are talking about the ritchie trade , right???...not only did it hurt us it killed us???...each year this guy has made a move that sunk this team

 

2001 wells for sirotka...first ..the logic of the trade made no sense....we needed one more top pitcher to put us over the top...that was the thinking at the time..so trading your ace (siro) for another teams ace (wells) still leaves you needed one more top pitcher to put you over the top...if you look at the stats from '00, even though wells won 20 games , youll find wells fell of the table the 2nd half..winning onlyu 5 games with an era of 5 after the all star break....while siro pitched his ass off all year...not to mention the bad publicity that williams brought the club after he admitted he sent damaged to toronto in the form of the minor leaguers and then reversed that part of the trade...also makes me think he siro was hurt...siro said he told the sox his arm was hurting on that trip to japan...williams said siro said he told him he was fine..one of them was lieing...after watching williams for three years now who do you think was lying???...

 

also in 2001..clayton for myette...this looks like no harm done...i like the trade at the time williams made it...i thought it would bring some versatility..although it came out after the trade that another GM (i believe it was walt jockety for st louis) told williams whatever you do dont take clayton..he's a horrible teammate...plus clayton was making 4.5 million...so we took on 4.5 million and texas took on nothing in myette...now like i said att i didnt think it was a bad move...changed my mind the day clayton , hitting 115 , came to bat with the sox trailing 2-0 against that all time great pitcher nolan ryan glynn from texas , with the bases loaded and one out...glynn , hit two guys and walked a third to load the bases , clayton , again hitting 115 , swings at the first pitch and grounds into an inning ending DP...after the game when questioned about that at bat , clayton gives the first of his it baseball not batball speeches...then we find out that clayton is also porking frank ex wife...and clayton remains with the team for another year and a half before he is released...and THAT was KW huge mistake in this trade...his ego wouldnt let him retify a mistake he made..and the team suffered..

 

the baldwin trade...and i dont even care about berry/barry i care about this...KW said when he made that trade at the end of july we no longer needed baldwin because he was "just a bridge" to the next wave of young pitchers and they have "arrived"....fast forward to the ritchie trade...in baseball time only 2 months past (august - sept) and then in the off season we trade 3 pitchers for ritchie and williams said we gave up alot but we had to have a veteran pitcher because we were void of leadership and the young pitchers wernt developing....i guess the next wave fell off the bridge in all of 2 months...it really shows kenny just goes on a wing and a prayer and cant even keep a plan together for 2 months..

 

foulke for koch..it was argued here numerous times that anyone who studied koch stats knew he might be the most overrated closer in baseball..his numbers compared to other top closers ,including foulke , were horrible...fans from both toronto and oakland were saying youre gonna need to stock up on tums and rolaids with this guy...art howe overused him in sept getting oakland to the playoffs and everyone but KW knew it....everyone in baseball also knew that manuel misused foulke and that foulke had a fantastic 2nd half last year and was primed for a comeback...things that a majority of fans on this and every other white sox board stated before the season started..fans could see it...kw couldnt..know we still have koch albatross around our neck..btw...why did KW feel the need to sign koch long term w/o him throwing one pitch for us???..he could have minimized damage buy just letting him go to arbitration...that compounded the mistake of the trade..

 

there are more moves he made that wernt smart (long term contracts to corner position players like konerko - lee)..not as bad as these 4 but im too tired to keep typing..but thats my case for not liking williams..i think its a good one and i think it shows that if you could go back in time and reverse his moves we probably would have gotten to the playoffs atleast once..so basically if we went rudderless the last three years w/o a GM the team would have been better off..

[baggio202]

I know a lot more than you think I know.....  LOL

 

I will try to explain this to you one more time in the simplest terms. 

 

I am your boss.  You and I have talked and we both have information about another employee that is bad enough to keep that person from getting another job in our industry.  Obviously it would be bad enough than that we know we cannot keep him.

 

If I say to you, knowing the above information, that is it your call to keep him or let him go, then I am seriously neglecting my job. 

 

So after the employee is let go, I tell everyone that it was not my call to get rid of him.  But then admit I have such damaging information that if I choose to let it out, would keep him from getting another job.

 

How does that make me look?  I knew about this supposed information, yet I let someone who works under me have the decision to possibly keep him on board?  I would look like the biggest idiot of a boss in the world. 

 

Unless I am that big of an idiot, then that story must be wrong.  Either I told you to get rid of the guy or there is not such drastically damaging information.  Either way, I contradict myself or color myself as an idiot if I make the above comments to the media.

how does that one look???...weak..very weak...a leader makes those decisions then stands by them...you dont pass the buck

[Guest JimH]

it didnt hurt us???.....you are talking about the ritchie trade , right???...not only did it hurt us it killed us???...each year this guy has made a move that sunk this team

 

2001 wells for sirotka...first ..the logic of the trade made no sense....we needed one more top pitcher to put us over the top...that was the thinking at the time..so trading your ace (siro) for another teams ace (wells) still leaves you needed one more top pitcher to put you over the top...if you look at the stats from '00, even though wells won 20 games ,  youll find wells fell of the table the 2nd half..winning onlyu 5 games with an era of 5 after the all star break....while siro pitched his ass off all year...not to mention the bad publicity that williams brought the club after he admitted he sent damaged to toronto in the form of the minor leaguers and then reversed that part of the trade...also makes me think he siro was hurt...siro said he told the sox his arm was hurting on that trip to japan...williams said siro said he told him he was fine..one of them was lieing...after watching williams for three years now who do you think was lying???...

 

also in 2001..clayton for myette...this looks like no harm done...i like the trade at the time williams made it...i thought it would bring some versatility..although it came out after the trade that another GM (i believe it was walt jockety for st louis) told williams whatever you do dont take clayton..he's a horrible teammate...plus clayton was making 4.5 million...so we took on 4.5 million and texas took on nothing in myette...now like i said att i didnt think it was a bad move...changed my mind the day clayton , hitting 115 , came to bat with the sox trailing 2-0 against that all time great pitcher nolan ryan glynn from texas , with the bases loaded and one out...glynn , hit two guys and walked a third to load the bases , clayton , again hitting 115 , swings at the first pitch and grounds into an inning ending DP...after the game when questioned about that at bat , clayton gives the first of his it baseball not batball speeches...then we find out that clayton is also porking frank ex wife...and clayton remains with the team for another year and a half before he is released...and THAT was KW huge mistake in this trade...his ego wouldnt let him retify a mistake he made..and the team suffered..

 

the baldwin trade...and i dont even care about berry/barry i care about this...KW said when he made that trade at the end of july we no longer needed baldwin because he was "just a bridge" to the next wave of young pitchers and they have "arrived"....fast forward to the ritchie trade...in baseball time only 2 months past (august - sept) and then in the off season we trade 3 pitchers for ritchie and williams said we gave up alot but we had to have a veteran pitcher because we were void of leadership and the young pitchers wernt developing....i guess the next wave fell off the bridge in all of 2 months...it really shows kenny just goes on a wing and a prayer and cant even keep a plan together for 2 months..

 

foulke for koch..it was argued here numerous times that anyone who studied koch stats knew he might be the most overrated closer in baseball..his numbers compared to other top closers ,including foulke , were horrible...fans from both toronto and oakland were saying youre gonna need to stock up on tums and rolaids with this guy...art howe overused him in sept getting oakland to the playoffs and everyone but KW knew it....everyone in baseball also knew that manuel misused foulke and that foulke had a fantastic 2nd half last year and was primed for a comeback...things that a majority of fans  on this and every other white sox board stated before the season started..fans could see it...kw couldnt..know we still have koch albatross around our neck..btw...why did KW feel the need to sign koch long term w/o him throwing one pitch for us???..he could have minimized damage buy just letting him go to arbitration...that compounded the mistake of the trade..

 

there are  more moves he made that wernt smart (long term contracts to corner position players like konerko - lee)..not as bad as these 4 but im too tired to keep typing..but thats my case for not liking williams..i think its a good one and i think it shows that if you could go back in time and reverse his moves we probably would have gotten to the playoffs atleast once..so basically if we went rudderless the last three years w/o a GM the team would have been better off..

Some of your points are well taken, but you only present one side of the story on a lot of them.

 

Wells-Sirotka: He wanted a more proven guy, a guy he could feel confident giving the ball to in Game 1 of a playoff series. Comparing Wells to Sirotka from that standpoint, Wells wins hands down. Easily. Williams talked about that aspect of the deal at length. The commissioner of baseball looked long and hard at the deal re: Sirotka being injured. He said the Sox did not have to compensate the Jays, the Sox reversed part of the trade anyway. Isn't it good personnel management to trade a guy you might think is heading for a physical breakdown and get some value in return? As it turned out, both guys broke down, Sirotka for good.

 

The Baldwin trade is the same scenario. The Sox felt Baldwin was breaking down. I mean, what's a GM gonna say in public? "Well, we traded JB 'cause we think he's breaking down physically. Too bad for the Dodgers for taking him." If he woulda said that, he would've been crucified. Baldwin is basically finished at this point. Again, the other side of the coin on this trade is, they tried to get something for a guy who was breaking down.

 

Their pro scouting is a problem. They got this Onan Masaoka guy for Baldwin and he was a zero. Clayton, I agree, what the hell was with that. He may have been good defensively, but for chrissakes, check around on the guy's character issues.

That was a boneheaded move. If you recall, Williams did sit down with Clayton after the first season and basically told him, hey, you've got to be a better teammate. I don't think there was anybody lining up to take Royce Clayton at that point. That was a bad move in retrospect, he tried to "fix" something (defensive play at SS) and he created another problem which was bigger (chemistry).

 

Foulke-Koch: You were the guy upset about losing Mark Johnson, if I recall correctly. In addition, yes, Foulke pitched better in the 2nd half of 2002, in no-pressure situations though. Foulke wasn't happy with Manuel or Williams. I highly doubt the Sox would've resigned Foulke, even if he had his Oakland year (excellent) here in Chicago. They tried to get another closer for him, and did. This story is not over yet. We'll see how Foulke does in Boston, and if Koch rebounds. The White Sox would not have paid Foulke the money Boston did. I am not a fan of Koch but Foulke had run his course here.

 

Konerko and Lee: The Sox are damned if they do and damned if they don't with this situation. If they don't lock these guys up, fans scream and say "why are we so cheap, why do we lose all our players?". If they do lock them up and the guy has a bad year, it's "they were stupid to pay this guy all that money." So what happens if Buerhle's arm falls off this year? Does KW get smacked upside the head for paying Mark B. all that money? I don't think it'd be fair. Like I said, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

Todd Ritchie: Doesn't Ron Schueler get any blame here? Or is this all on KW? Schueler must've had his Jamie Navarro Glasses on when he recommended Todd Ritchie.

 

Look, I'm not saying KW is a great GM, he has made mistakes and there are definitely things wrong down there. I think that some Sox fans like to point out only the things that support their "KW Sucks" argument, though, and not the 360 view.

[baggio202]

Some of your points are well taken, but you only present one side of the story on a lot of them.

 

Wells-Sirotka:  He wanted a more proven guy, a guy he could feel confident giving the ball to in Game 1 of a playoff series.  Comparing Wells to Sirotka from that standpoint, Wells wins hands down.  Easily.  Williams talked about that aspect of the deal at length.  The commissioner of baseball looked long and hard at the deal re: Sirotka being injured.  He said the Sox did not have to compensate the Jays, the Sox reversed part of the trade anyway.  Isn't it good personnel management to trade a guy you might think is heading for a physical breakdown and get some value in return?  As it turned out, both guys broke down, Sirotka for good.

 

The Baldwin trade is the same scenario.  The Sox felt Baldwin was breaking down.  I mean, what's a GM gonna say in public?  "Well, we traded JB 'cause we think he's breaking down physically.  Too bad for the Dodgers for taking him."  If he woulda said that, he would've been crucified.  Baldwin is basically finished at this point.  Again, the other side of the coin on this trade is, they tried to get something for a guy who was breaking down. 

 

Their pro scouting is a problem.  They got this Onan Masaoka guy for Baldwin and he was a zero.  Clayton, I agree, what the hell was with that.  He may have been good defensively, but for chrissakes, check around on the guy's character issues.

That was a boneheaded move.  If you recall, Williams did sit down with Clayton after the first season and basically told him, hey, you've got to be a better teammate.  I don't think there was anybody lining up to take Royce Clayton at that point.  That was a bad move in retrospect, he tried to "fix" something (defensive play at SS) and he created another problem which was bigger (chemistry).

 

Foulke-Koch:  You were the guy upset about losing Mark Johnson, if I recall correctly.  In addition, yes, Foulke pitched better in the 2nd half of 2002, in no-pressure situations though.  Foulke wasn't happy with Manuel or Williams.  I highly doubt the Sox would've resigned Foulke, even if he had his Oakland year (excellent) here in Chicago.  They tried to get another closer for him, and did.  This story is not over yet.  We'll see how Foulke does in Boston, and if Koch rebounds.  The White Sox would not have paid Foulke the money Boston did.  I am not a fan of Koch but Foulke had run his course here.

 

Konerko and Lee:  The Sox are damned if they do and damned if they don't with this situation.  If they don't lock these guys up, fans scream and say "why are we so cheap, why do we lose all our players?".  If they do lock them up and the guy has a bad year, it's "they were stupid to pay this guy all that money."  So what happens if Buerhle's arm falls off this year?  Does KW get smacked upside the head for paying Mark B. all that money?  I don't think it'd be fair.  Like I said, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

Todd Ritchie:  Doesn't Ron Schueler get any blame here?  Or is this all on KW?  Schueler must've had his Jamie Navarro Glasses on when he recommended Todd Ritchie.

 

Look, I'm not saying KW is a great GM, he has made mistakes and there are definitely things wrong down there.  I think that some Sox fans like to point out only the things that support their "KW Sucks" argument, though, and not the 360 view.

siro - wells...shouldnt kenny have taken into account wells disasterous 2nd of '00..especially considering his age???...i really feel kenny knew siro was hurt...

 

baldwin had won his last 4 starts prior to that trade..so how did we know he was breaking down??...he threw the ball better in that stretch then any other time in the season...to me it looked like he was coming back...he pitched well in LA but didnt get run support...started out good the next year in seattle before faling off the table...if your right in what you say and KW did know baldwin was done he still shouldnt have called him "just a bridge"..he should have thanked him for years of service..said ill never forget the guts it took for him to pitch the playoff game last year on a bum shoulder and i hope he succeeds with LA...he didnt have to rip him like that

 

 

agreed on the scouts...we ahve to have weakest scouting in baseball , or damn close..dont know where the blame lies on that

 

i said earlier i applauded kenny when he made the clayton trade...but i just would have rectified that mistake a year or so earlier...every GM makes mistakes..KW cant seem to fix his...

 

i was upset at losing johnson...at the time we had only olivo and mark as our catchers and had to go back and sign 13 time knee surgery recipient sandy alomar back...johnson is a functional catcher...he was solid defensively and could bunt and hit behind runners...he just hit like crap..but most catchers do...he's a solid back up and functional starter...if we had to make the koch -foulke trade it should have been koch and a major league position player (maybe their 2nd baseman) for foulke (and whatever you to do with prospects)...

 

konerko and lee...im of the firm believe that on a budget you pay for up the middle players and not corner players..to be fair thats why i added lee...id have been right on konerko and wrong on lee....but you have to have some kind of strategy and eventhough i would have missed on lee and he would be hitting the ball hard for someone else i would have had an extra 13 or 14 million to rectify that mistake...kenny cant fix his mistake on konerko because he cant find a taker and he doesnt have payroll to buy a replacement...

 

on schu..yeah he shoulder some blame if he pushed ritchie...did you know if schu was for trading 3 pitchers for ritchie???...that wasnt schu's style when he was iirc...

 

if we had the scrubs payroll kenny could be sucessful..hell i could be sucessful if i was allowed to throw money at all my mistakes...but we dont have that luxary...and from where is sit kenny just doesnt learn from his mistakes...

 

how much longer would you go with KW if we dont show improvement???

[Guest JimH]

This year is Williams make-or-break year in my opinion. If this team underachieves again, he should go.

 

I don't see how you discredit him for not knowing Wells had physical problems, i.e. ready to break down but he gets no credit for dumping Sirotka. That's a little unfair in my book.

 

Baldwin was hurt at some point in 2000. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure he was breaking down. He had results with the Sox just before he was traded but that doesn't mean he was throwing well ... he wasn't. His velo and location was way down and off.

 

As for Mark Johnson, there's not much to be said about that. You liked him, I didn't. He was serviceable but 30 major league teams decided he wasn't worth a major league contract this winter, and there is a tremendous lack of catching depth in major league baseball. So I think that in and of itself speaks for Mark's ability. He was a good teammate and all, but in my book no loss. I'll take a creaky Sandy Alomar Jr. any day.

 

No question they gave up too much for Todd Ritchie, it was a disaster no matter how anyone slices it. Kip Wells is a good, solid middle of the rotation starter, more than Ritchie will ever be again. Just giving up Wells has proven to be too much. But Fogg and Lowe ... to me, not a big deal. Fogg has been figured out, Lowe has broken down. I liked Sean Lowe a lot, but it's the same story, he was traded at the right time in terms of his durability.

 

As a Sox fan, who cares if Sirotka was injured when they traded him? The Sox could say the same thing about David Wells. I don't agree with a lot of what the commissioner says but when he said it was "buyer beware" and exonerated the White Sox, that's good enough for me. That's no reason (for me anyway) to hold a grudge against the Sox GM.

 

As for Schueler, his style was not giving up ANY prospects. People in this town, and most Sox fans, were screaming at him to add some veteran arms in the midst of 2000. He came up with Ken Hill. My point being, there are plusses and minuses to every GM style. We have not won a world championship since 1917 so I personally don't have a problem with a GM "going for it". This past year, I think they gave up too much for Carl Everett but I did not have a problem with the Robbie Alomar deal. The only prospect in that deal was Ring, and the Sox have decent depth at left handed relievers.

 

In short, I don't much care if a GM praises a guy to the hilt on the way out of town. Yes, it's nice if he does. How do I know, or you know, or most of us know what is done behind the scenes. We don't. They may have given him some lovely parting gifts.

 

I really think too many fans fall in love with individual players and as soon as that particular player gets traded, the guy who trades him is a bad guy. I don't buy that. I am for whoever plays for the Sox, and I have no interest in anyone who doesn't. When they wear the Sox uniform, I want them to do well.

 

Finally, who is responsible for these contracts, i.e. Konerko, Lee, etc.? That's all Williams?? I doubt it. Reinsdorf is a big part of it I'd venture to say.

[southsideirish]

it didnt hurt us???.....you are talking about the ritchie trade , right???...not only did it hurt us it killed us???...each year this guy has made a move that sunk this team

 

No Bagio I am not. I was talking about the Wells trade. Move on.

[southsideirish]

baldwin had won his last 4 starts prior to that trade..so how did we know he was breaking down??

 

baggio, I remember when the trade happened. It was reported all over the place that he was a broken down pitcher and he lost a lot of velocity. I believe everyone but the dodgers knew this guy was broken down.

[BrandoFan]

how much longer would you go with KW if we dont show improvement???

 

I can forgive Kenny for 2001 because:

 

1) Tribe had a better team

2) Half of the key players from 2000 were either on DL or with nagging injuries.

3) GM learning pains.

 

2002 and especially 2003 were UNFORGIVABLE and should have been MORE than enough to get him FIRED.

 

(I don't even want to THINK what will happen should we fail this year and Cubs go deep into playoffs....)

 

 

And before anyone points to the Great Unpredictablity of Baseball and Life when talking about Kenny's season killing trades, aquisitions and signings (Ritchie, Koch, White, Konerko, Klayton, Baines, Durham for Adkins, Ramirez, Pantygua, Show, Rios, Daubach, Jimenez waiver fiasco, etc).....Hey, guess what fellas, that's why HE is up there earning the chex and getting the chix and NOT us blue-collar grunts-- to make TOUGH close-call decisions and be RIGHT.

 

Just like a big-time corporate stock trader entrusted with millions of dollars, he's gotta show SOMETHING that makes us go "Oh, he is good!" on consistent basis. Especially considering that with Sox payroll, ONE big mistake and you can kiss the season good-bye.

 

Nobody said it was easy or fair. A's GM did it. Angels GM did it. Marlins GM did it. Twins GM did it. Expos GM kinda did it (with healthier Guerrero, in ALC, they are a 1st place team). Royals GM is doing it.

 

Not having enough luck is NO excuse. Not in big-time sports, not in the markets, not anywhere.

 

The fact that KW was not gone by June 2003 is yet ANOTHER testament to the mind-numbing ineptitude that has enveloped this franchise.

[baggio202]

baggio, I remember when the trade happened. It was reported all over the place that he was a broken down pitcher and he lost a lot of velocity. I believe everyone but the dodgers knew this guy was broken down.

well , if thats true, explain why williams had a 2 year 7 million dollar deal on the table for JB all season up til the trade??