Kenny Williams ...

[Guest JimH]

Take a look at the official site, specifically the article about "Sox looking to add players".

 

Seems to me Williams role is a bit more active than just being a GM in name only, as has been suggested by at least one insider.

 

I'm really not posting this to start stuff, but I must admit to finding it amusing that KW is front and center with all these transactions ... and especially his tweak at Frank Thomas (the returning phone calls comment).

 

Why would Williams have such a HUGE beef with Frank Thomas, and Ozzie Guillen have the idea to discuss Thomas at his press conference?

 

Is it that these two baseball men are totally clueless and are completely and 100% wrong about Frank Thomas?

 

May I suggest the clickable smiley

 

Yes, it is entirely possible both Guillen and KW are clueless when it comes to Frank.

 

Seems to me that Reinsdorf wanted Guillen to get the managers job though. If we believe all the insider stories from here and other web sites, KW wanted Gaston and JR thought Guillen would be better for whatever reason.

 

So JR is a big Frank Thomas fan, and Frank will supposedly retire a White Sox.

 

Guillen, who is also a JR man, apparantly has a beef with Frank.

 

KW, and who knows who his backer is, also has a beef with Frank.

 

Is it possible ... I mean just possible ... Frank is the problem?

 

And one (or more) insiders have a personal bias to protect Frank Thomas, due to a friendship?

 

Inquiring Minds Want To Know.

 

Just Asking.

[baggio202]

yes it is true...williams and ozzie are completely clueless....even the idiots on espn 1000 today said frank's teammates love him...that he is very generous with them and will always talk to whoever wants to talk to him...

 

i think it might be jealousy...williams wants to build this team with his players....probably wont be happy until all 25 players were acquired by him..as for ozzie..he and thomas ' relationship when they played were strained at best..i guess ozzie didnt forget...

 

ill ask you this about KW...is every player /coach that leaves this organization thats calling williams a whack job wrong???...i mean the list must be up to a full roster by now

[C.Rector]

Just wondering, but what departing coach or player has ever called KW a "whack job"?

[baggio202]

Just wondedring, but what departing coach or player has ever called KW a "whack job"?

von joshua tore KW a new one..

 

sean lowe , kip wells , james baldwin , jim parque (though i dont know if he counts since he was kinda wacky himself) , now wally backman , kieth foulke , royce clayton (like anyone cares)..i'm sure im missing some

 

whack job was just a generic use for players that shook their head leaving here because of how unprofessional this franchise is run..

[YASNY]

Durham. Sirotka ..... I'm sure there is more.

[BillSharp]

Durham also ripped Kenny with his "spies."

[winninguglyin83]

don't forget Paniagua.

 

He wasn't too happy when he left.

 

 

Rick White, Bobby Howry, Robbie Alomar, Armando Rios

[Steff]

Jim.. I'm not a big Frank fan at all.. My only issue with all of this is why it their tiff any of the public's business..?

 

IMO.. it's ignorant to air your dirty laundry in the press and in the real world the CEO would fire an empolyee who spoke out like that.

 

On the plus side... KW make himself look even more like an idiot - if that's possible.. - by admitting his players don't give a s*** about him and have no respect for him to even return his calls.

 

Karma....

[YASNY]

Jim.. I'm not a big Frank fan at all..  My only issue with all of this is why it their tiff any of the public's business..?

 

IMO.. it's ignorant to air your dirty laundry in the press and in the real world the CEO would fire an empolyee who spoke out like that.

 

On the plus side... KW make himself look even more like an idiot - if that's possible.. - by admitting his players don't give a s*** about him and have no respect for him to even return his calls.

 

Karma.... 

Touche'

[Guest JimH]

If Williams is just a figurehead, as has been suggested, then it must be someone else who's doing all those nasty things to the departing players/coaches, thereby causing them to rip the organization.

 

If KW is not a figurehead and is actually doing the GM job, then I'm as concerned as everyone else.

 

Let's step back a minute.

 

It's been said that Ozzie Guillen was Reinsdorf's pick. Not Williams' pick. And I agree Guillen should've handled things better at his press conference.

 

KW is Reinsdorf's hire too.

 

Out of all those guys listed as ripping the organization when they left, how many specifically ripped Williams?

 

I think Von Joshua did, and Parque. Sean Lowe was questioning how Manuel used him as well as his trip to the minors.

 

So, it seems to me all this venom from these departing players/coaches isn't solely directed at KW.

 

Some of you guys who are crying about Williams horrible trades are the same guys who were bemoaning the loss of Mark Johnson.

 

All this mess, if in fact it's more than a made-up mess, cannot be laid at the feet of one person.

[Steff]

Jim.. agree. The entire ball of wax is messed over there. It's like a train wreck.. ya just can't turn away..

[Guest JimH]

Jim.. I'm not a big Frank fan at all..  My only issue with all of this is why it their tiff any of the public's business..?

 

IMO.. it's ignorant to air your dirty laundry in the press and in the real world the CEO would fire an empolyee who spoke out like that.

 

On the plus side... KW make himself look even more like an idiot - if that's possible.. - by admitting his players don't give a s*** about him and have no respect for him to even return his calls.

 

Karma.... 

I agree 100% this stuff should NOT come out in the press. It is much better to handle stuff like this in private.

 

It is kind of like you and me Steff, when we had our little tiff a few weeks ago, we took it offline and all is well. That was a lot better than doing it on the board, going back and forth for dozens of posts.

 

Not to compare the two situations, but it is not smart for KW or Guillen to go public, unless there is some specific, particular reason as to why, in their minds, it is worth the gamble.

 

Let me give you an example.

 

I was a HR manager at a place where it was a "good old boys" network, there were a couple of people who were on the payroll no matter how disruptive they were, how they would not buy into changing things for the better, etc. One of them was on my staff, a guy I "inherited" when I took the job. He was the mailroom supervisor. Everyone complained about him ... he was difficult to deal with, uncooperative, talked behind everyone's back, etc. and lazy to boot.

 

Every time I tried to work with this guy, i.e. point things out in his performance appraisal, etc. he would go crying to his "protector" (top ranking guy) and next thing you know, my bosses would call me in and the message was always "go easy on this guy".

 

And then I'd have all the employees screaming at me because the mailroom wasn't getting the job done.

 

So after three years of this crap, I finally started telling the employees to stop complaining to me. Go to my bosses and complain. Well, one of my bosses was the CEO, and he got tired of people knocking on his door, complaining about the mailroom guy.

 

Bottom line, we put the guy on a performance program, and 6 months later he was let go.

 

Moral of the story: The only way I could get something done to improve the organization was to, in effect, go "public". I didn't want to do it, it went against every instinct I had, but in my mind, it had to be done.

 

So ... not that Frank Thomas is a disgruntled employee and he's certainly more accomplished than a mailroom supervisor .

 

But there may be a LOGICAL REASON why Guillen and KW feel the need to go public with Frank. They may want him gone, and it is their opinion, they may be 100% right or 100% wrong. But they are baseball men, closer to the situation than any of us, and they may feel "going public" is the only way they can rectify or improve the situation.

 

Again, I do not agree with going public and we agree on this Steff. It rarely makes sense to do that.

 

I'm suggesting an alternative viewpoint which may explain why these two guys decided to take their issues into the court of public opinion.

 

One last thing ... I did not see or hear where Williams admitted his players don't give a s*** about him or respect him enough to even return phone calls. Wasn't his comment only in the context of Frank Thomas? I did not hear the interview so I don't know. I also understand you were a caller, did you get on, what did you say? (I'd been on the Stevenson for about 2 damn hours yesterday afternoon coming back from Bridgeport, couldn't "hold it" any longer!! )

[israel4ever]

don't forget Paniagua.

 

He wasn't too happy when he left.

 

 

Rick White, Bobby Howry, Robbie Alomar, Armando Rios

Did Ventura rip him, or was that still during the Scheuler era?

 

I do know he had some parting shots for the Sox too!

[Steff]

His comment was specifc to Frank... I was jumping the gun and opening it up. he didn't metion calling or getting calls from anyone else - although I did ask if he had called and talked to Maggs in light of trying to dump him...

 

My call was pretty much what I've said here... "Why is this any of our business? Why do you idiots ask these questions? Why don't we worry about our pitching.. 2B issue.. and what happens between the lines?" Oh.. I called Kenny classless, too

[winninguglyin83]

reading between the lines, it sure looks like the Sox are trying to make Frank so miserable that he will ask for a trade. It's been very obvious the last two years that they hoped he would opt out of his contract. He hasn't. So their only alternative seems to be to take shots at him publicly at every occasion, hoping he'll tell Arn Tellem to get him outta Chicago.

 

We'll see.

 

If you're looking for a bright side, remember this: In 2000, Frank was in another b****y mood, had the major blowup with Manuel in spring training and spilled all the dirty laundry in a Sports Illustrated cover story. That season showed clubhouse B.S. can be overcome.

[israel4ever]

KW is a puppet, no more, no less. Reinsdorf has his hand up KW's ass and tells him what to say/do.

 

That is a JR trait; that's why, except for Scott Skiles, he has never hired a manager or coach who had managerial or coaching experience on a major league level. (That's why everyone should have known that Cito Gaston was never gonna get the Sox job!). Same goes for his GMs too!

 

JR needs total control.

 

Steve Rosenbloom made a very interesting comment this morning on The Score, re. why JR should sell the Sox. Rosenbloom compared JR to a poker player trying to play high stakes poker with $20 in his pocket. You need to either get more money, or find a low stake game!

[winninguglyin83]

Ventura went out blasting, in his low key, diplomatic way, Bevington and Schueler.

[YASNY]

Ventura went out blasting, in his low key, diplomatic way,  Bevington and Schueler.

Robin Ventura is a great example. And upon his return to USCF with the Yankees, the Sox fans let Robin know exactly how they felt about things. But, were the Sox "listening"? The fact we are having this discussion answers that question.

[quickman]

I agree 100% this stuff should NOT come out in the press.  It is much better to handle stuff like this in private.

 

It is kind of like you and me Steff, when we had our little tiff a few weeks ago, we took it offline and all is well.  That was a lot better than doing it on the board, going back and forth for dozens of posts.

 

Not to compare the two situations, but it is not smart for KW or Guillen to go public, unless there is some specific, particular reason as to why, in their minds, it is worth the gamble.

 

Let me give you an example.

 

I was a HR manager at a place where it was a "good old boys" network, there were a couple of people who were on the payroll no matter how disruptive they were, how they would not buy into changing things for the better, etc.  One of them was on my staff, a guy I "inherited" when I took the job.  He was the mailroom supervisor.  Everyone complained about him ... he was difficult to deal with, uncooperative, talked behind everyone's back, etc. and lazy to boot.

 

Every time I tried to work with this guy, i.e. point things out in his performance appraisal, etc. he would go crying to his "protector" (top ranking guy) and next thing you know, my bosses would call me in and the message was always "go easy on this guy".

 

And then I'd have all the employees screaming at me because the mailroom wasn't getting the job done.

 

So after three years of this crap, I finally started telling the employees to stop complaining to me.  Go to my bosses and complain.  Well, one of my bosses was the CEO, and he got tired of people knocking on his door, complaining about the mailroom guy.

 

Bottom line, we put the guy on a performance program, and 6 months later he was let go.

 

Moral of the story:  The only way I could get something done to improve the organization was to, in effect, go "public".  I didn't want to do it, it went against every instinct I had, but in my mind, it had to be done.

 

So ... not that Frank Thomas is a disgruntled employee and he's certainly more accomplished than a mailroom supervisor  .

 

But there may be a LOGICAL REASON why Guillen and KW feel the need to go public with Frank.  They may want him gone, and it is their opinion, they may be 100% right or 100% wrong.  But they are baseball men, closer to the situation than any of us, and they may feel "going public" is the only way they can rectify or improve the situation.

 

Again, I do not agree with going public and we agree on this Steff.  It rarely makes sense to do that.

 

I'm suggesting an alternative viewpoint which may explain why these two guys decided to take their issues into the court of public opinion.

 

One last thing ... I did not see or hear where Williams admitted his players don't give a s*** about him or respect him enough to even return phone calls.  Wasn't his comment only in the context of Frank Thomas?  I did not hear the interview so I don't know.  I also understand you were a caller, did you get on, what did you say?  (I'd been on the Stevenson for about 2 damn hours yesterday afternoon coming back from Bridgeport, couldn't "hold it" any longer!!  )

Jim,

 

I think the place is run poorly. JR doesn't handle the media well so why should expect others to do the same. Here is the rub, Ownership needs to do just that...own. I don't like my families or childrens issues aired out in public, why should they. Since ownership does a poor job at marketing, and dealing with the press they have no idea to to handle there own people. I think Ozzie will make it 10 times worse. This guy is a big mouth but once again professionalism with this team is second.

[BrandoFan]

Steve Rosenbloom made a very interesting comment this morning on The Score, re. why JR should sell the Sox. Rosenbloom compared JR to a poker player trying to play high stakes poker with $20 in his pocket. You need to either get more money, or find a low stake game!

 

I don't know much about this Rosemblum fella (other than he is a Jew and that's all I need to know) but this a very poor analogy for a couple of reasons not the least of which is the FACT that for Reindorf, in light of all the contractual nuances and balance sheet-related issues that have been debated over and over on this board, Sox are a low risk, fairly high reward set-up:

 

1. if the team loses and the fans don't come, his losses are within reason if not totally neglegible. The current situation is a comfy tax shelter if anything else.

 

2. if the team wins, fans come out in droves; concessions, merch sales go up; rolling value of his media deal/franchise/real estate increases; AND he gets from 2 to 11 playoff home games of pure MONEY gravy-- I am sure he would have no qualms about setting up a hugely profitable SCALPING service not unlike what the Cubs did.

 

So even from the business standpoint, poker parallel is ill-applicable IMO.

 

3. Reindorf is a bonafied baseball fan-geek. Sox hold a big sentimental value. Unless he is losing his ass or gets an awesome offer, he will not sell, content with "playing poker" with "$20 in his pocket" until he dies.

[whitesox61382]

yes it is true...williams and ozzie are completely clueless....even the idiots on espn 1000 today said frank's teammates love him...that he is very generous with them and will always talk to whoever wants to talk to him...

 

i think it might be jealousy...williams wants to build this team with his players....probably wont be happy until all 25 players were acquired by him..as for ozzie..he and thomas ' relationship when they played were strained at best..i guess ozzie didnt forget...

 

ill ask you this about KW...is every player /coach that leaves this organization thats calling williams a whack job wrong???...i mean the list must be up to a full roster by now

Baggio, its clear that you try and find ANYTHING you can to blame on KW. He could trade a bag of balls for Puljos and Prior, and you would still find something to complain about. You bias/negative rhetoric doesn't allow you to make accurate judgements on his ability/moves. I am curious as to what drives you so far to hold such a grudge against him? Nothing personal, but if you blame the fall from 2000 solely on KW, than you have no understanding of baseball. Even the casual fan could see that team was a fluke(just look at the starting staff and what they have done since: Sirotka, Eldred, Baldwin, Parque, Garland), and all the luck in the world couldn't have kept them from coming back to reality. He has made some bad trades and some good ones, but I only see one trade that I would call terrible(Ritchie for Wells, Fogg, Lowe). He isn't going to be mistaken for one of the best GM's in the game, but he isn't as bad as you make him out to be. As someone who grew up watching Scheuler do nothing, and allow this organization to be nothing better then mediocre, its nice to finally have a GM that isn't affraid to take chances and attempt to improve this team. As fans we don't even know half of the story between Thomas and Cora/KW, so placing blame on either side at this point shows nothing but bias towards one of the other side. Maybe it shouldn't have been made public, but I am sure someone would have leaked it sooner or later.

 

PS Baggio, please show some class and be smart enough not to ask KW to resign in the question part of Soxfest. That is a completely gutless and classless act on your behalf. You can question some of his moves and decisions, but grow up and don't allow your gudge to make you do something stupid. If you really want KW to resign, than do it privately through a letter. Please don't give Sox fans a bad name, and show some class.

[baggio202]

Baggio, its clear that you try and find ANYTHING you can to blame on KW. He could trade a bag of balls for Puljos and Prior, and you would still find something to complain about. You bias/negative rhetoric doesn't allow you to make accurate judgements on his ability/moves. I am curious as to what drives you so far to hold such a grudge against him? Nothing personal, but if you blame the fall from 2000 solely on KW, than you have no understanding of baseball. Even the casual fan could see that team was a fluke(just look at the starting staff and what they have done since: Sirotka, Eldred, Baldwin, Parque, Garland), and all the luck in the world couldn't have kept them from coming back to reality. He has made some bad trades and some good ones, but I only see one trade that I would call terrible(Ritchie for Wells, Fogg, Lowe). He isn't going to be mistaken for one of the best GM's in the game, but he isn't as bad as you make him out to be. As someone who grew up watching Scheuler do nothing, and allow this organization to be nothing better then mediocre, its nice to finally have a GM that isn't affraid to take chances and attempt to improve this team. As fans we don't even know half of the story between Thomas and Cora/KW, so placing blame on either side at this point shows nothing but bias towards one of the other side. Maybe it shouldn't have been made public, but I am sure someone would have leaked it sooner or later.

 

PS Baggio, please show some class and be smart enough not to ask KW to resign in the question part of Soxfest. That is a completely gutless and classless act on your behalf. You can question some of his moves and decisions, but grow up and don't allow your gudge to make you do something stupid. If you really want KW to resign, than do it privately through a letter. Please don't give Sox fans a bad name, and show some class.

i blame him because he is the one running the show...i realize working for reinsdorf aint easy but we all know reinsdorf will die owning this team so argueing about whether he should sell the team doesnt matter because he will never sell...he turned 300 million or something like that last year if reports were right and forbes rates the sox net worth at about 250 million..but when those discussions come up..yes reinsdorf is ultimately to blame i would hope he sells to an owner thats committed to keeping the sox here and to winning...

 

when williams first came here i was all for giving him a chance...i understand in '01 there were injuries but that team started playing good ball and when williams threw in the towel the sox were about as close to the indians as they were all season...i think they were somewhere around 8 games out when we traded baldwin...sounds like a lot..but st louis was 8 games at the trade deadline too...they made a move , got woody williams who went like 9-0 in august and sept and they made the playoffs ( as for last year - if you go back and read my post more than once i said i supported any move KW made to help improve that team - regaurdless of what prospects it cost us)...that could have been us..

 

everytime i hear him he is either lying, changing his tune or direction..whatever you want to call it...

 

you talk about the '00 team being a fluke because we lost 4 starting pitchers..well thats what trades and the farm system is for..to replace those guys...you think other teams rotation have stayed the same the past 4 years???

 

here's oakland's staff from '00

heredia 15-11

hudson 20-6

appier 15-11

mulder 9-10

oliveras 4-8

zito 7-4 pitched a few games at the end of the season..from mid august on

 

so they kept 2 starters and we kept one..they added zito and we added buehrle so thats a wash...

 

plus they lost their best player in giambi , we didnt lose maggs or frank to match that loss...only 3 everyday starters remain...and they turned over the entire bullpen (unless mecir is still there but he had an era approching 6 last year)..

 

compare losses to the twins...surely you dont think they possess more talent then the sox did both in '00 and now..

 

their rotation...radke ,mays , milton , redmond in '00 (no real 5th starter..no one got even 100 innings)

in '03 - loshe , radke , rogers,mays ,reed

 

radke and mays remained..and mays has been a liability to them 9except when he pitches against us) last year he had 8 wins and a 6.30 era..has been injured most of the time...

 

bullpen..hawkins and gaurdado were on both teams..in this day of free agents that pretty good..

 

starting line up...4 guys remain koskie guzman jones and hunter..

 

my point..every team deals with injuries and roster turnover over a 4 year period...KW has proved, atleast to me he cant handle the job

 

and how is being classless if i ask him to resign???...im not going up there yelling and screaming for him to quit...ill lay my case out calmly and then say its this sox fans opinion that the team has steadily declined over your tenure and i feel its best if this team again underachieves that at the end of the season you should consider resignation..

 

is that really being classless???

[whitesox61382]

i blame him because he is the one running the show...i realize working for reinsdorf aint easy but we all know reinsdorf will die owning this team so argueing about whether he should sell the team doesnt matter because he will never sell...he turned 300 million or something like that last year if reports were right and forbes rates the sox net worth at about 250 million..but when those discussions come up..yes reinsdorf is ultimately to blame i would hope he sells to an owner thats committed to keeping the sox here and to winning...

 

when williams first came here i was all for giving him a chance...i understand in '01 there were injuries but that team started playing good ball and when williams threw in the towel the sox were about as close to the indians as they were all season...i think they were somewhere around  8 games out when we traded baldwin...sounds like a lot..but st louis was 8 games at the trade deadline too...they made a move , got woody williams who went like 9-0 in august and sept and they made the playoffs ( as for last year - if you go back and read my post more than once i said i supported any move KW made to help improve that team - regaurdless of what prospects it cost us)...that could have been us..

 

everytime i hear him he is either lying, changing his tune or direction..whatever you want to call it...

 

you talk about the '00 team being a fluke because we lost 4 starting pitchers..well thats what trades and the farm system is for..to replace those guys...you think other teams rotation have stayed the same the past 4 years???

 

here's oakland's staff from '00

heredia 15-11

hudson 20-6

appier 15-11

mulder 9-10

oliveras 4-8

zito 7-4  pitched a few games at the end of the season..from mid august on

 

so they kept 2 starters and we kept one..they added zito and we added buehrle so thats a wash...

 

plus they lost their best player in giambi , we didnt lose maggs or frank to match that loss...only 3 everyday starters remain...and they turned over the entire bullpen (unless mecir is still there but he had an era approching 6 last year)..

 

compare losses to the twins...surely you dont think they possess more talent then the sox did both in '00 and now..

 

their rotation...radke ,mays , milton , redmond in '00 (no real 5th starter..no one got even 100 innings)

in '03 - loshe , radke , rogers,mays ,reed

 

radke and mays remained..and mays has been a liability to them 9except when he pitches against us) last year he had 8 wins and a 6.30 era..has been injured most of the time...

 

bullpen..hawkins and gaurdado were on both teams..in this day of free agents that pretty good..

 

starting line up...4 guys remain koskie guzman jones and hunter..

 

my point..every team deals with injuries and roster turnover over a 4 year period...KW has proved, atleast to me he cant handle the job

 

and how is being classless if i ask him to resign???...im not going up there yelling and screaming for him to quit...ill lay my case out calmly and then say its this sox fans opinion that the team has steadily declined over your tenure and i feel its best if this team again underachieves that at the end of the season you should consider resignation..

 

is that really being classless???

If you want to place blame then you have to start at the top with JR(which you point out). When you have limited financial flexibility there is only so much you can do. Just because JR continues to not spend a lot(partially the fans fault) and will probably continue to do so, doesn't make it right to make someone else a scapegoat for his problems(KW), which it appears you are doing.

 

The only way to consistantly contend(with a limited payroll) is to have a productive minor league system, and unfortunately the Sox have been unsucessful in that department over the past 3-4 years. I guess you can put some of that blame on KW since he plays an important role in the draft(and was formerly the head of development), but you can only place so much blame on him for prospects struggling. When he moved from the head of minor league development to GM the Sox had the #1 minor league system in the majors. Unfortunately the prospects didn't fullfil their potential. Should KW be blamed for that?

 

You are kidding yourself if you think Baldwin would have made a difference. The Tribe had a more talented team, while the Sox were stuck with injuries and players that overachieved in 2000 coming back to reality.

 

You missed my point about the 2000 team. You understand that it was a fluke, but you miss my point explaining why? I pointed to the starting 5 to show how drasticly they overachieved, and told you to look at what they have done since. Here are the stats of the starting staff in 2000 and what they have done since:

 

2000

Sirotka 15-10 3.79 ERA 197 IP

Parque 13-6 4.28 ERA 187 IP

Eldred 10-2 4.58 ERA 112 IP

Baldwin 14-7 4.65 ERA 178 IP

KWells 6-9 6.02 ERA 98.2 IP

Garland 4-8 6.46 ERA 69 IP

 

Since

Sirotka - (Hasn't pitched in the majors since)

Parque - 2-8 9.68 ERA 70.2 IP (Been up and down from the majors to the minors)

Eldred - 7-5 4.54 ERA 73.1 IP (Pitched 6 IP in 2001 and none in 2002)

Baldwin - 17-22 4.84 ERA 340 IP (Pitched a grand total of 15 IP last year)

KWells - 32-34 3.78 ERA 529 IP (Developed into a solid young pitcher)

Garland - 30-32 4.34 ERA 501.1 IP(Has been a solid bottom of the rotation starter)

 

I point out these stats for 2 reasons.

1) To show how they overachieved in 2000.

2) To show how little each have done since.

 

What should have KW done after the 2000 season. He kept most of the pitchers and they struggled or got hurt. He knew that they overachieved and tried to add a bonefide ace in DWells, but he also got hurt. If he tried to trade a couple of the overachieving pitchers/players, than everyone in baseball would have questioned those moves(breaking about a team that won 95 games). These stats show that the 2000 season was a fluke and that there was very little that KW could have done. It wasn't only the starting pitcher, but the a couple of bullpen pitchers and offensive players also overachieved. KW got himself into a no win situation, in which fans could place blame on him for something he couldn't control(a drasticly overachieving team in 2000 that returned to reality in 2001).

 

Please say that it is in YOUR OPINION and don't clump all Sox fans into one catogory. There are some of us that are smart enough to realize that this underachieving isn't solely his fault and that the so-called "decline" isn't his doing. At some point you also have to place some blame on the players that are underachieving on the field, which KW has no control over. Its KW job to put the talent on the roster, which he has done a good job of considering that the Sox have been favored to win the division every year since he took over(one of the reasons I don't put much of the blame on him). Personally, I don't care how polite you are, asking someone to resign in front of a bunch of people at an event that is suppose to start off the season on a positive note(and pretending that you speak on behalf of all Sox fans) is a classless act.

 

PS. I am curious, what would you have done after the 2000 season and the seasons that followed afterwards if you were in KW shoes? Its one thing to place blame on someone, but its entirely different thing to understand how to better the situation.

 

Sorry for the length.

[CWSGuy406]

Steff, I'd like to say that your call was the only one I really payed attention to. Hell, half of the callers on that little 30 minute segment were Cubs fans "weighing in", and I hate that.

 

People were calling it a "great interview" with Kenny Williams that was done by Mac, Jurko, and Harry. I totally disagree. They should have asked him about why there wasn't a better effort to go after a fourth starter. They should have asked what merritted giving Schoenwise (sp?) a 1.75 million dollar contract. They should have asked him, if he knew, why the payroll was set at such a low number. They did ask him about 2B, and he wouldn't budge on Harris; he feels Harris is gonna be good, like it or not.

[baggio202]

If you want to place blame then you have to start at the top with JR(which you point out). When you have limited financial flexibility there is only so much you can do. Just because JR continues to not spend a lot(partially the fans fault) and will probably continue to do so, doesn't make it right to make someone else a scapegoat for his problems(KW), which it appears you are doing.

 

The only way to consistantly contend(with a limited payroll) is to have a productive minor league system, and unfortunately the Sox have been unsucessful in that department over the past 3-4 years. I guess you can put some of that blame on KW since he plays an important role in the draft(and was formerly the head of development), but you can only place so much blame on him for prospects struggling. When he moved from the head of minor league development to GM the Sox had the #1 minor league system in the majors. Unfortunately the prospects didn't fullfil their potential. Should KW be blamed for that?

 

You are kidding yourself if you think Baldwin would have made a difference. The Tribe had a more talented team, while the Sox were stuck with injuries and players that overachieved in 2000 coming back to reality.

 

You missed my point about the 2000 team. You understand that it was a fluke, but you miss my point explaining why? I pointed to the starting 5 to show how drasticly they overachieved, and told you to look at what they have done since. Here are the stats of the starting staff in 2000 and what they have done since:

 

2000

Sirotka 15-10 3.79 ERA 197 IP

Parque 13-6 4.28 ERA 187 IP

Eldred 10-2 4.58 ERA 112 IP

Baldwin 14-7 4.65 ERA 178 IP

KWells 6-9 6.02 ERA 98.2 IP

Garland 4-8 6.46 ERA 69 IP

 

Since

Sirotka - (Hasn't pitched in the majors since)

Parque - 2-8 9.68 ERA 70.2 IP (Been up and down from the majors to the minors)

Eldred - 7-5 4.54 ERA 73.1 IP (Pitched 6 IP in 2001 and none in 2002)

Baldwin - 17-22 4.84 ERA 340 IP (Pitched a grand total of 15 IP last year)

KWells - 32-34 3.78 ERA 529 IP (Developed into a solid young pitcher)

Garland - 30-32 4.34 ERA 501.1 IP(Has been a solid bottom of the rotation starter)

 

I point out these stats for 2 reasons.

1) To show how they overachieved in 2000.

2) To show how little each have done since.

 

What should have KW done after the 2000 season. He kept most of the pitchers and they struggled or got hurt. He knew that they overachieved and tried to add a bonefide ace in DWells, but he also got hurt. If he tried to trade a couple of the overachieving pitchers/players, than everyone in baseball would have questioned those moves(breaking about a team that won 95 games). These stats show that the 2000 season was a fluke and that there was very little that KW could have done. It wasn't only the starting pitcher, but the a couple of bullpen pitchers and offensive players also overachieved. KW got himself into a no win situation, in which fans could place blame on him for something he couldn't control(a drasticly overachieving team in 2000 that returned to reality in 2001).

 

Please say that it is in YOUR OPINION and don't clump all Sox fans into one catogory. There are some of us that are smart enough to realize that this underachieving isn't solely his fault and that the so-called "decline" isn't his doing. At some point you also have to place some blame on the players that are underachieving on the field, which KW has no control over. Its KW job to put the talent on the roster, which he has done a good job of considering that the Sox have been favored to win the division every year since he took over(one of the reasons I don't put much of the blame on him). Personally, I don't care how polite you are, asking someone to resign in front of a bunch of people at an event that is suppose to start off the season on a positive note(and pretending that you speak on behalf of all Sox fans) is a classless act.

 

PS. I am curious, what would you have done after the 2000 season and the seasons that followed afterwards if you were in KW shoes? Its one thing to place blame on someone, but its entirely different thing to understand how to better the situation.

 

Sorry for the length.

i did get your point on the pitching situation..and its a legit point.. iforgot to credit you when i posted earlier..my fault there..

 

as for reinsdorf...we know he is cheap..any GM candidate knows it too...so taking the job and then saying i cant win cause the payroll is too low and the fans dont support the team is nonsense...he knew the limitations coming in..if he felt that way he shouldnt have taken the job...

 

one team i forgot to mention..the florida marlins...they won 2 series in 10 years of existence..and they probably are the most financial strapped team in baseball...winning on a budget can happen...but it wont ever happen here in the GM keeps using it as an excuse..

 

i'll leave you with this...if we went rudderless the last 4 years after schu quit and didnt even have a GM..would we be worse off then we are now???...just resigning player we had on the '00 team and replacing free agents , retirees and injuries with the farm system???

 

our rotation would be buehrle , kipper , fogg , garland , wright or whoever in the 5 spot...basically , after 4 years of tinkering we are left with loiaza instead of kipper and fogg...both rotations are about the same...

 

kieth foulke , chad bradford , kelly wunsch , sean lowe (am i missing anyone of our relievers from that team that are still on ML rosters???) for '00 vrs botch , marte , mr zero and wunsch..the rest are question marks (maybe zero is too come to think of it)..if kenny never pulled the botch trade id give him high marks..getting marte was his big highlight...but if we didnt touch the pen the last 3 years it wouldnt really be in that bad of shape compared to the pen today...

 

the line up...the '00 needed a left handed power hitter or 2..4 years later the '04 team needs a left handed power hitter or 2...in 4 years he made no effort or failed in his efforts to get us left handed power..unacceptable imo..

 

frank , maggs , lee , konerko ,valentin remain...jonhson (cj and mj) , singleton , durham and perry were replaced by olivo , harris ,rowand , and crede...i dont think i have to say anything on this...id take the '00 group over the '04 group...i realize id have to work on a catcher and 3rd baseman but we are talking about not doing anything for 4 years....those 4 positions and KW didnt address them long term...again unaccusable..

 

4 years now...the teams going downhill...

 

hopefully im wrong..hopefully willie harris will hit 290 with a 400 OBp and steal 45 bases...crede goes on to eric chavez like status..olivo learns to hit and becomes the next i-rod...rowand learns how to turn and burn in CF and becomes a 300 hitter...zero is our hero out of the pen..botch saves 45..buehrle loiaza and garland all win 15 plus...danny wright rebounds with another 14 win season...person returns to the person of ald to go 15-7 again...

 

i hoping for it...what else do we got???