Kenny Williams ...

[DBAHO]

I know lots of ppl whine and complain bout da state of our payroll and for good reason too, but just stop for a minute and wonder what would it be like if you were a supporter of the Pittsburgh Pirates or Cincinatti Reds. At least we hav hope, and our GM is doin all he can for us to win, the Mr. Zero signin should prove that to ppl.

[whitesox61382]

When did KW blame the organizations struggles over the past couple of years on a lack of financial flexibility? I have never heard KW say such a thing, in part because he doesn't want to get on JR's bad side. Do you have an evidence(a link) to support this?

 

The Marlins 1st WS came at a high cost. They had one of the highest payrolls in baseball, and that offseason had to trade away all their high salary players. Comparing the Sox(with a limited payroll) to the Marlins when they won their 1st WS is a poor comparison. Last years Marlins team is an example of what can happen if you make the playoffs and are playing well at the time. Hopefully this years Sox team has enough talent to win a weak Central, and anything can happen once they are in the playoffs.

 

As far as you comparing the current roster to what the roster could look like if the Sox didn't make any moves; you have the advantage of highsight. It is easy to say keep this guy and get rid of that guy once you know how they are performing now. Unfortunately, KW doesn't have that luxery. You also go over budget. Almost all those young players you mentioned are eligible for arbitration and will get nice raises, which would probably prevent the Sox from keeping your entire "hypothetical" roster.

 

With that said, I think the current roster has more talent when compared to your "hypothetical" roster with no moves. The 2004 rotation is just as good, if not better then the 2003. KWells and Loaiza are probably a wash. It comes down to Fogg/Wright/Rauch/Diaz versus Schoeneweis/Person/Wright/Rauch/Diaz. I would say that is a pretty fair trade off now that Fogg has been solved, although the 2004 roster offers more options and veteran experience, which give it a slight edge IMO. The bullpens are pretty similar, although there is little chance that the Sox would be able to keep Foulke. I would take Marte, Koch, and Mr. Zero over Foulke, Bradford, and Lowe. The 2004 offense is probably better then the 2000 offense(on paper). I would take Olivo over MJ. I would take Rowand over Singleton. I would take Crede over Perry. I would take Durham over Harris, however, Durham is probably gone because he cost too much. Overall, I think the 2004 team has more talent on paper than your "hypothetical" team. Furthermore, like I pointed out, you have the luxery of highsight, and your "hypothetical" team would probably be over budget, which means players like Foulke and Durham would probably be gone and replaced by youngsters or cheap FA's.

 

I would argue that the current roster has more talent(which is what KW is responsible for) then your "hypothetical" roster with no moves. So I would have to disagree with your opinion that this team is going downhill, especially when you consider that the 2000 was a fluke. I don't care if Billy "the great" Beane was the Sox GM after the 2000 season, it still wouldn't have changed the inevitable decline that occured in 2001. With that said, I have said that this is the make or break year for KW(IMO). He was given a tough situation(a lot of key FA and little financial flexibility), partly his own doing, and if this team can make the playoffs, than I think he deserves some credit and recognition. If this team struggles to reach .500, than he should probably be fired.

[Rex Hudler]

The White Sox payroll in 1997 was $ 54,377,500. The Marlins that same year was only $ 47,753,000.

 

The Sox payroll was higher than the Marlins in both of their World Series years.

 

Marlins Salary History

 

1997 was the year of the Marlins first WS, wasn't it?

[quickman]

The White Sox payroll in 1997 was $ 54,377,500.  The Marlins that same year was only $ 47,753,000.

 

The Sox payroll was higher than the Marlins in both of their World Series years.

 

Marlins Salary History

 

1997 was the year of the Marlins first WS, wasn't it?

Rex,

 

I agree and the two things that tells us is:

 

1) We overpaid for the players we had.

2) Our minor league system does not churn out enough or good enough players.

 

 

Eitherway, we are being mismanaged.

[baggio202]

thanks rex...i just realized something else

 

the payroll in '00 was 31 million

in kenny's firsat year , '01 it jumped to 65 million..

 

it more than doubled...thats a 34 million dollar jump in payroll...

 

it wasnt exactly like KW took over and was told to cut payroll...its possible hehad more freedom than almost any GM in '01..

 

compare that with danny evans..he took over a 100 million dollar payroll..but was toldto trim it by 20% his first year..now which man had the easier job..which eh cut from 109 million to 94 million

[upnorthsox]

The White Sox payroll in 1997 was $ 54,377,500.  The Marlins that same year was only $ 47,753,000.

 

The Sox payroll was higher than the Marlins in both of their World Series years.

 

Marlins Salary History

 

1997 was the year of the Marlins first WS, wasn't it?

Marlins had the 2nd highest payroll in the NL in '97, they were 8th in '96, it doesn't mean s*** where the Sox were because in the end they chose to dump salary and their chances instead going for it. In '03 the Marlins while having almost no local TV revenue and attendance under a million going into the season came up with "Special" money to sign IRod and then more "Special" money for Urbina during the season, they don't make the playoffs let alone win it all without those two. They also had the good fortune of playing the biggest choke team in baseball to get there.

 

Btw, The Twins had a payroll of $55,505,000 in 2003, the Sox $51,010,000. Who won the AL Central in 2003?

 

One more thing, the Twins this yr have a $56 mil budget while the Sox have a $58 mil budget even though the Twins get $22 mil less in local TV money, a worse stadium deal, and almost the exact same attendance so if JR is only breaking even then the Twins are losing $20 mil or more. I guess we'd be better off with Carl Pohlard as our owner.

[upnorthsox]

The Marlins in '03 also went against conventional wisdom and fired their manage during the season, the Sox didn't citing convetional wisdom. The rest is history.

[Guest JimH]

Our problem has been, and continues to be the lack of productive talent coming out of the minor leagues. Or at least not enough to stem the tide from losing free agents.

 

In particular, productive pitching has been a problem. I've pointed this out before, but in the '99 draft the Sox took pitching with 14 of their first 15 picks. To a large degree, this was why the system was ranked #1 after 2000.

 

Many of those guys have either gotten hurt, lost their luster, or didn't work out.

 

Jon Rauch and Jason Stumm are very good examples. BA had Rauch #1, Stumm was very highly thought of. Rauch is now borderline to make this team, and Stumm will be lucky to stay healthy all year at Birmngham.

 

There is some mismanagement going on here. Scouting and player development need to more closely looked at. When you have a middle market budget as the Sox do, you have to develop talent. That's what the Twins do.

 

But baggio, the Twins are crying right now about losing all their players, in today's Tribune. They can't keep players either. Your statement about keeping Keith Foulke is a pipe dream ... forget about it. Foulke would've never signed here.

 

As for left handed power, they brought in Daubach last year, did they not? He was misused and/or had a bad year. Power is not what they need. Jose Valentin is "power" from the left side. He also strikes out 100+ times a year and has a poor batting average. They need higher OBP guys is what they need.

 

By the way, Sean Lowe is hurt and may be done.

[quickman]

Our problem has been, and continues to be the lack of productive talent coming out of the minor leagues.  Or at least not enough to stem the tide from losing free agents.

 

In particular, productive pitching has been a problem.  I've pointed this out before, but in the '99 draft the Sox took pitching with 14 of their first 15 picks.  To a large degree, this was why the system was ranked #1 after 2000.

 

Many of those guys have either gotten hurt, lost their luster, or didn't work out.

 

Jon Rauch and Jason Stumm are very good examples.  BA had Rauch #1, Stumm was very highly thought of.  Rauch is now borderline to make this team, and Stumm will be lucky to stay healthy all year at Birmngham.

 

There is some mismanagement going on here.  Scouting and player development need to more closely looked at.  When you have a middle market budget as the Sox do, you have to develop talent.  That's what the Twins do.

 

But baggio, the Twins are crying right now about losing all their players, in today's Tribune.  They can't keep players either.  Your statement about keeping Keith Foulke is a pipe dream ... forget about it.  Foulke would've never signed here.

 

As for left handed power, they brought in Daubach last year, did they not?  He was misused and/or had a bad year.  Power is not what they need.  Jose Valentin is "power" from the left side.  He also strikes out 100+ times a year and has a poor batting average.  They need higher OBP guys is what they need.

 

By the way, Sean Lowe is hurt and may be done.

Amen and dead on. The minor league system sucks. But Wilder will hcange that? s*** he did wonders with the brewers! Yea right. Anyway, we ahve either traded our minors or not developed them properly. Its too bad. These guys take way to long to develop, they hit walls and can't get through them, they get injured more now than in the past. Why? Dumb luck? no can't be all dumb luck. Look within, somehting is wrong with this entire org.

[greasywheels121]

Marlins had the 2nd highest payroll in the NL in '97, they were 8th in '96, it doesn't mean s*** where the Sox were because in the end they chose to dump salary and their chances instead going for it. In '03 the Marlins while having almost no local TV revenue and attendance under a million going into the season came up with "Special" money to sign IRod and then more "Special" money for Urbina during the season, they don't make the playoffs let alone win it all without those two. They also had the good fortune of playing the biggest choke team in baseball to get there.

 

Btw, The Twins had a payroll of $55,505,000 in 2003, the Sox $51,010,000. Who won the AL Central in 2003?

 

One more thing, the Twins this yr have a $56 mil budget while the Sox have a $58 mil budget even though the Twins get $22 mil less in local TV money, a worse stadium deal, and almost the exact same attendance so if JR is only breaking even then the Twins are losing $20 mil or more. I guess we'd be better off with Carl Pohlard as our owner.

The funny thing about that though is that it's believed that the Minnesota owner has more money than JR and Steinbrenner combined.

[whitesox61382]

Thank you upnorthsox. Rex, the point I was trying to make is that the Marlins had a big payroll in 1997(as upnorthsox points out). I wasn't comparing them to the 1997 Sox, but the current Sox since that is the topic at hand. I said that it wasn't a fair comparison because the Marlins had a payroll(in 97') that was in the top 10, while the Sox have a payroll in the middle of the pack.

 

In regards to the payroll increase(from 2000 to 2001); that was because of mostly internal increases. It wasn't necassirily that KW got 30M to spend on FA's. The only two decent size contracts that the Sox added that offseason were DWells and Clayton, so as you can see most of the payroll increase came from players already on the roster. Furthermore, most Sox fans thought that the 2 weaknesses of the 2000 team was the lack of a true ace and a better defensive team up the middle. So what does KW do, he gets one of the top starting pitchers in the game and one of the top defensive SS in the game.

 

Please don't compare Evans to KW. As bad as you may think KW is, Evans is 10x worse. Evans is widely regarded as one of the worst, and maybe the worst, GM in the majors. He might be on the brink of being fired when the new ownership takes over. There are litterally thousands of Dodgers fans that hate Evans as much as you hate KW. Mark my words, this team is much better off with KW compared to Evans.

[baggio202]

so what do you guys want to do...just keep going along with the status quo??...have a GM that makes 2 bad trades for every good one..poor scouting...underachieving...prospects not developing...one excuse after another from management..

 

twins fans are crying too because they cant keep players???...well that might be true but they went to the playoffs the last 2 years...had the sox accomplished that i wouldnt be asking for kenny's head...we are now heading into a rebuilding phase with nothing to show for it...

 

not only in baseball , but in any walk of life , anytime you make an excuse its a reason to accept failure...yeah JR is a tight wad...but its been proven that the budget he does allow can win a world series..or atleast make you a perrenial playoff team...

 

oakland A's payroll the last 4 years - 32m , 33m, 40m , 50m ...

our payroll the last 4 years - 31m , 65m , 57m , 51m

 

sure i wish JR would spend 90m..and there is no doubt in my mind that he could afford to..but he wont and he also wont sell so the sox have to win playing by his rules....everytime KW says i cant make change for a dollar if JR only gives 50 cents...or we cant add to this team because the fans wont support it , is just another excuse to lose..

 

if you look at those numbers...JR was pretty generous with the budget going into '01...more than doubling it...the last 2 years it went down..wondering what goes on behind close does when they set these budgets...the numbers say to me the JR doesnt trust kenny..but if thats the case why doesnt he fire him???

[Guest JimH]

...have a GM that makes 2 bad trades for every good one...we are now heading into a rebuilding phase with nothing to show for it...

 

 

oakland A's payroll the last 4 years - 32m , 33m, 40m , 50m ...

our payroll the last 4 years - 31m , 65m , 57m , 51m

Please give examples of the two bad trades for every good one. I just don't see where that statement is factual.

 

You keep using this Oakland A's example. What about all the other teams with middle of the pack payrolls who haven't sniffed the playoffs? What about all those teams who've had higher payrolls and haven't sniffed the playoffs?

 

Believe me, I don't think KW is the worlds greatest GM, but you make a couple of broad brush statements here and I don't see the facts behind them.

 

Not trying to give you a hard time, I know you are a big fan. I do think, though, that your anti-KW stance is a bit over the top.

 

As for asking for his resignation at SoxFest, it's your right. Go ahead if you want to. But you'd be doing the same thing you criticize him for, namely, going off on someone in public when you don't know the whole story, or when things are better handled in private (in this case, send a certified letter and ask for a response). If your intent is to try and sway the public opinion by doing it out in the open, I'd bet he's got more facts than you'll have.

 

There are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes you or I or 99.9% here will never know about, even those who are connected at some level.

 

And who says the White Sox are entering a rebuilding phase? Have you seen that printed somewhere, or was someone quoted as saying that? I've never heard that, in fact, I've heard the contrary.

[BrandoFan]

so if JR is only breaking even then the Twins are losing $20 mil or more. I guess we'd be better off with Carl Pohlard as our owner.

 

Old Man Pohlad is one of the wealthiest men in the WORLD-- estimated to be worth 20 BILLION dollars.

 

Now get out yer calculators and see how many seasons he has to lose 20 Mill (and I think the actual number is much closer to 5-10 Mill than 20) per in order to make a serious dent in the INTEREST he is making off his assets alone.......LMAO!!

 

Incidentally, the Wal-Mart heir and owner of KC Royals is also capable of buying BOTH JR and Steinbrenner and hanging them on the wall.

[YASNY]

so what do you guys want to do...just keep going along with the status quo??...have a GM that makes 2 bad trades for every good one..poor scouting...underachieving...prospects not developing...one excuse after another from management..

 

I thought that was the plan all along.