The God thread

[southsider2k5]

In general with an at least sizable Christian community on this site, I thought this might be an interesting thread to try. That way we could have somewhere to talk to each other about ideas, ideals, questions, etc. Any comments or ideas are appreciated.

 

Anyway, to my question, I just finished reading the "Gospel of St Thomas". Has anyone else read this, or have any opinions on it? The person who translated it, argues that this could actually predate the 4 gospels because of the simplicity of the writing, compared to the extra information in the Gospels.

[Queen Prawn]

Reincarnation - do you believe in it?

 

I do. I think each life is designed by us before birth, with the help of God, to accomplish a goal to reach a Nirvanah-like place. I see it that way because if God is our Father, as Christians believe, I would think that he would want to give us as many opportunities to get it right as possible.

[1549]

Reincarnation - do you believe in it?

 

I do.  I think each life is designed by us before birth, with the help of God, to accomplish a goal to reach a Nirvanah-like place.  I see it that way because if God is our Father, as Christians believe, I would think that he would want to give us as many opportunities to get it right as possible.

interesting take. Sort of a buddhist christian mix.

 

Personally, I believe that after death you either go to hell or you go to heaven (keeping my fingers crossed ). I think it is impossible to even imagine death not having something following it.

[Queen Prawn]

I think it is impossible to even imagine death not having something following it.

I hear you on that. The idea that it's a 'lights out' kind of thing at death is terrifying. I can't tell you why I think it's terrifying, but I do think that it is.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I think it is impossible to even imagine death not having something following it.

 

I find the opposite to be true.

[FlaSoxxJim]

The idea that it's a 'lights out' kind of thing at death is terrifying.  I can't tell you why I think it's terrifying, but I do think that it is.

I think that's part of the human condition, the egocentric view that life or a universe without us in it at some level is incomprehensible. Death is the big unknown for us in this world where we have successfully demystified and explained most of the other things people used to need a pantheon of gods for. As planetary movements, the seasons, natural growth cycles, the effects of drugs and alcohol, etc. were explained away scientifically, the pantheons of harvest gods, sun gods, etc., were dispensed with until all that was left was basically the god of death and presumed afterlife. Maybe this opinion is too jaded for some, but it's where I come from at any rate.

 

I love theological discussions, love comparing the religions of the world, and vigorously defend the right of all people to worship as they see fiy so long as it does not impose on the rights of others (love and do what you will). But, at my heart I am a secular humanist. On good days or to keep more spiritually-minded people enganged in a discussion I'll call myself an agnostic. In reality, I have for most of my life been more of an athiest than many people find comfortable.

 

Doesn't mean my moral compass is out of whack. In fact, since I am not counting on any sort of eternal reward I do the best I can to make the time on earth reward enough. I know humans can be intrinsically motivated to be good and comit to leaving the planet and its inhabitants better off rather than worse, without needing the extrinsic carrot/stick motivation of eternal salvation/damnation. Thinking adults who strive to do good only because of the promise of an eternal reward (not because it is the right thing to do) kind of make me nervous. Adults who use religion as a sinister toilet-training device to program their kids to never question their faith instead of teaching them to be critical, questioning thinkers just plain scare me.

 

Love and Do What You Will.

[Queen Prawn]

I think that's part of the human condition, the egocentric view that life or a universe without us in it at some level is incomprehensible.

That's not why I think the idea of 'lights out' is terrifying. For me, it's something like the feeling after watching a good movie with a really bad ending - "That's it, you mean I spent this time for this?!" It's that and also the idea that I will never see the family members that went before ever again is terribly depressing to me.

 

I will think more about what I am trying to say and if something comes to me, I'll post.

[1549]

I think that's part of the human condition, the egocentric view that life or a universe without us in it at some level is incomprehensible.  Death is the big unknown for us in this world where we have successfully demystified and explained most of the other things people used to need a pantheon of gods for.  As planetary movements, the seasons, natural growth cycles, the effects of drugs and alcohol, etc. were explained away scientifically, the pantheons of harvest gods, sun gods, etc., were dispensed with until all that was left was basically the god of death and presumed afterlife.  Maybe this opinion is too jaded for some, but it's where I come from at any rate.

 

I love theological discussions, love comparing the religions of the world, and vigorously defend the right of all people to worship as they see fiy so long as it does not impose on the rights of others (love and do what you will).  But, at my heart I am a secular humanist.  On good days or to keep more spiritually-minded people enganged in a discussion I'll call myself an agnostic.  In reality, I have for most of my life been more of an athiest than many people find comfortable.

 

Doesn't mean my moral compass is out of whack.  In fact, since I am not counting on any sort of eternal reward I do the best I can to make the time on earth reward enough.  I know humans can be intrinsically motivated to be good and comit to leaving the planet and its inhabitants better off rather than worse, without needing the extrinsic carrot/stick motivation of eternal salvation/damnation.  Thinking adults who strive to do good only because of the promise of an eternal reward (not because it is the right thing to do) kind of make me nervous.  Adults who use religion as a sinister toilet-training device to program their kids to never question their faith instead of teaching them to be critical, questioning thinkers just plain scare me.

 

Love and Do What You Will.

I agree and disagree.

 

I agree that religion has been used as simply a source to answer that which we can not otherwise answer.

 

On the other hand there is so much that can not be proved by science that seems to imply their has to be a creater. It is my choice to believe the Christian God is the creater.

 

For example, I have heard and believe that the big bang created the universe. I have heard and believe that the big bang was the explosion of a ball of densely packed molecules. But where did that ball of densely packed molecules come from? My point is that everything has to come from something, and something had to create that original thing, and I choose God. (just don't ask me who/what created God ).

 

Being a realist I find it hard to believe in something without looking at it from a more logical standpoint. For example, I don't believe all the stories in the bible to be true. I do not believe that a flood covered the earth and all but noah and the animals he somehow managed to fit in a boat died.

 

But I do believe in Jesus. I don't think that somebody from this time frame would claim to be the savior for attention, and if someone did, they would surely be called crazy and would not be taken seriously. (And I don't believe Jesus is a fictional person since most agree that he was alive, the question is was he really who he claims to be).

 

So to sum up my points

1: logically it seems impossible for their not to be a creater.

2: Though some biblical stories may only be symbolism, much of it is true, especially the new testament.

[1549]

That's not why I think the idea of 'lights out' is terrifying.  For me, it's something like the feeling after watching a good movie with a really bad ending - "That's it, you mean I spent this time for this?!"  It's that and also the idea that I will never see the family members that went before ever again is terribly depressing to me.

 

I will think more about what I am trying to say and if something comes to me, I'll post.

Its the family part that bothers me when I think of nothingness.

[1549]

I really enjoy this thread, I wish I didn't have to study for mid-term exams

[Queen Prawn]

For example, I have heard and believe that the big bang created the universe.  I have heard and believe that the big bang was the explosion of a ball of densely packed molecules.  But where did that ball of densely packed molecules come from?  My point is that everything has to come from something, and something had to create that original thing, and I choose God.  (just don't ask me who/what created God ).

That's sort of how I envision the start of the universe. God was the catalyst to start the big bang. Something along those lines...

[The Critic]

Reincarnation - do you believe in it?

 

I do.  I think each life is designed by us before birth, with the help of God, to accomplish a goal to reach a Nirvanah-like place.  I see it that way because if God is our Father, as Christians believe, I would think that he would want to give us as many opportunities to get it right as possible.

This would explain why "born-again's" are so annoyingly nicey-nicey.

Trying REEEEEEEEAL hard to get it right.

 

I actually have a similar theory to this, except my twist on it is that reincarnation is not so much another opportunity as it is expulsion from heaven and being sent back to this dump for another shelf life.

"Couldn't behave, huh? Well, then , get back down there!!!!"

[Queen Prawn]

I actually have a similar theory to this, except my twist on it is that reincarnation is not so much another opportunity as it is expulsion from heaven and being sent back to this dump for another shelf life.

"Couldn't behave, huh? Well, then , get back down there!!!!"

I like it! That sounds like my mom's thoughts on earth being a 'purgatory' of sorts.

[1549]

I like it!  That sounds like my mom's thoughts on earth being a 'purgatory' of sorts.

I am undecided as to whether or not I believe in purgatory. That is something that you can't really think through. Either someone tells you there is and you believe it, or you don't.

 

As for hell, I believe in it mostly because how can you be accepted into heavan if you don't believe in it.

[FlaSoxxJim]

That's sort of how I envision the start of the universe.  God was the catalyst to start the big bang.  Something along those lines...

Ah, the deus ex machina approach to religion is just one step away from agnosticism so watch out.

 

Yes, humans want answers to the questiosn of life the universe, and everything (apparently "42" was not answer enough, despite Doug Adams' best efforts). But, science and logic hold that the simplest explanations are usually closest to the truth, and invoking a Divine Agent is hardly the simplest of explanations in most cases.

 

Not that people waaaay smarter than I do not wholly believe in a divine agent. Astrophysicists, cosmologists, quantum mechanists and the like – basically the people with the most insight into the beginnings of the physical universe – ARE by and large a spiritual group. I know this both from personal acquaintance with a Stanford quantum egghead who I happened to grow up best friends with, and from the little bit of reading on the subject I have done. My friend and I joke with each other about the seeming incongruity in that so many of my ilk (evolutionary biologists, life sciences) shy away from divine explanations while the people that supposedly spend so much time trying to boil the complexities of the universe into a couple universal mathematical principals tend toward the spiritual. Interesting indeed...

[1549]

Ah, the deus ex machina approach to religion is just one step away from agnosticism so watch out.

 

Yes, humans want answers to the questiosn of life the universe, and everything (apparently "42" was not answer enough, despite Doug Adams' best efforts).  But, science and logic hold that the simplest explanations are usually closest to the truth, and invoking a Divine Agent is hardly the simplest of explanations in most cases.

 

Not that people waaaay smarter than I do not wholly believe in a divine agent.  Astrophysicists, cosmologists, quantum mechanists and the like – basically the people with the most insight into the beginnings of the physical universe – ARE by and large a spiritual group.  I know this both from personal acquaintance with a Stanford quantum egghead who I happened to grow up best friends with, and from the little bit of reading on the subject I have done.  My friend and I joke with each other about the seeming incongruity in that so many of my ilk (evolutionary biologists, life sciences) shy away from divine explanations while the people that supposedly spend so much time trying to boil the complexities of the universe into a couple universal mathematical principals tend toward the spiritual.  Interesting indeed...

I am not familiar with "42", what is it?

 

I can not speculate on why some of the worlds brightest are religious, but perhaps it has to do with the simple question of who created the original piece of the universe, whatever that may have been.

[Wong & Owens]

I believe that someone(something?) put us here, and I believe that-- given the obvious intellectual and creative superiority of an entity that could, say, create a universe-- the reasons are for "us" being here are beyond our comprehension at this point. I think the overall themes of religions are far too simple and pedestrian to serve as a mandate from any real higher power. If any of today's religions were at some point proven to be the true words from the big guy or gal, I would almost be disappointed that that(meaning what has been written in the bible, torah, koran, etc.) was our purpose for being. I don't believe any modern religion carries any more weight than does say a copy of Aesop's Fables. I remember back to a conversation I had with a mother of one of the girls I coached in volleyball. Somehow she got me into a discussion in which I revealed my discarding of religion as a whole. Her biggest problem with that was that she couldn't understand how anyone could raise kids without having religion to guide them to the right path. What she, knowingly or not, was doing, and this is something that parents have done for centuries, was telling me that she could not raise a child to be a good person without having this mysterious, omnipotent "headmaster" concept to hold over their heads at any time. It's so much easier to tell a child to be good or else "you'll go to hell because that's what god says," rather than explain to them that nobody has any real answers, that the world is very complicated, or that even when you are a good person, life is often hard and unfair.

 

Is there life after death? I hope so, my human brain has a hard time coming to terms with an end to my existence. But, if life in some form does exist after the body dies, I probably couldn't understand it, at least not now. We can prove that the unverse is huge and contains millions of planetary bodies. And that's only what we can prove today. Does anybody really believe deep down that we are the only intelligent life anywhere? Assuming we're not, do you really think that should we find life somewhere else, that they're worshipping jesus, allah or yahweh? I doubt it.

 

Of course, if I'm wrong, I'm going to be in big, big trouble.......

[1549]

I believe that someone(something?) put us here, and I believe that-- given the obvious intellectual and creative superiority of an entity that could, say, create a universe--  the reasons are for "us" being here are beyond our comprehension at this point.  I think the overall themes of religions are far too simple and pedestrian to serve as a mandate from any real higher power.  If any of today's religions were at some point proven to be the true words from the big guy or gal, I would almost be disappointed that that(meaning what has been written in the bible, torah, koran, etc.) was our purpose for being.  I don't believe any modern religion carries any more weight than does say a copy of Aesop's Fables.  I remember back to a conversation I had with a mother of one of the girls I coached in volleyball.  Somehow she got me into a discussion in which I revealed my discarding of religion as a whole.  Her biggest problem with that was that she couldn't understand how anyone could raise kids without having religion to guide them to the right path.  What she, knowingly or not, was doing, and this is something that parents have done for centuries, was telling me that she could not raise a child to be a good person without having this mysterious, omnipotent "headmaster"  concept to hold over their heads at any time. It's so much easier to tell a child to be good or else "you'll go to hell because that's what god says," rather than explain to them that nobody has any real answers, that  the world is very complicated, or that even when you are a good person, life is often hard and unfair. 

 

Is there life after death?  I hope so, my human brain has a hard time coming to terms with an end to my existence.  But, if life in some form does exist after the body dies, I probably couldn't understand it, at least not now.  We can prove that the unverse is huge and contains millions of planetary bodies.  And that's only what we can prove today.  Does anybody really believe deep down that we are the only intelligent life anywhere?  Assuming we're not, do you really think that should we find life somewhere else, that they're worshipping jesus, allah or yahweh?  I doubt it.

 

Of course, if I'm wrong, I'm going to be in big, big trouble.......

You have summarized the creation of religion--as a way to discipline citicizens.

 

But is this how modern religion was created?

 

I apologize for not knowing who actually wrote the original copy of the bible, but did they do it just to discipline citicizens?

 

Did the church rise to such a powerful height simply because rulers had new questions that needed answers, or because they wanted discipline?

 

I don't know. But I personally do not think so. I think that Jesus existed as the son of God.

 

Based on what you have written it seems that you are more interested in God's purpose, which is understandable. And you said that it seems religion doesn't hold much depth especially God's plan for us, the only analogy I can think of is this: if you were to summarize parenthood to a 5 year old, it might seem sort of shallow, because it is impossible to convey what it is really like to someone so young. Such is religion. It seems almost impossible for God to tell us the divine plan or why he exists and such, because without knowing what God's life is like, how could we understand?

[Wong & Owens]

You have summarized the creation of religion--as a way to discipline citicizens. 

 

But is this how modern religion was created?

 

I apologize for not knowing who actually wrote the original copy of the bible, but did they do it just to discipline citicizens?

 

Did the church rise to such a powerful height simply because rulers had new questions that needed answers, or because they wanted discipline?

 

I don't know.  But I personally do not think so.  I think that Jesus existed as the son of God.

 

Based on what you have written it seems that you are more interested in God's purpose, which is understandable.  But if you were to summarize parenthood, it might seem sort of shallow, because it is impossible to convey what it is really like.  Such is religion.  It seems almost impossible for God to tell us the divine plan or why he exists and such, because without knowing what God's life is like, how could we understand?

I believe that the bible was written by very clever storytellers that used these tales to explain why people need morals, values, etc. much the same as people use them today. Humans want reasons for things, and the bible provided them. The greatest achievement of the bible writers, IMHO, was creating a system has not been neither proven nor disproven up to this point.

 

Again, IMO, the church rose to power when some cunning people found a way to manipulate these stories and use them to gain power over susceptible, less-knowledgeable folk. This was much easier to do back then, when people couldn't even figure out what shape the planet was. I believe that if the concept of christianity was hatched today, it would die in minutes because there are many more resources and tests available to challeneg anyone who writes that "moses parted the red sea," or "jesus rose from the dead after 3 days."

 

As for your last point, I agree that we could not understand the life of god, or its divine plan. But if that is true, then why tell humanity that their purpose is to get to heaven by being good, et al? If that is the plan, then it's obviously not hard to understand, and if it's not, then why tell us it is? It seems contradictory--either it's not to hard to understand, and therefore very disappointing, or it is too hard to comprehend, in which case I ask, why make s*** up or tell us anything at all?

 

What is the answer? As Brant said in The Big Lebowski--"Well, dude, we just don't know."

[baggio202]

I believe that the bible was written by very clever storytellers that used these tales to explain why people need morals, values, etc.  much the same as people use them today.  Humans want reasons for things, and the bible provided them.  The greatest achievement of the bible writers, IMHO, was creating a system has not been neither proven nor disproven up to this point.

 

Again, IMO, the  church rose to power when some cunning people found a way to manipulate these stories and use them to gain power over susceptible, less-knowledgeable folk.  This was much easier to do back then, when people couldn't even figure out what shape the planet was.  I believe that if the concept of christianity was hatched today, it would die in minutes because there are many more resources and tests available to challeneg anyone who writes that "moses parted the red sea,"  or "jesus rose from the dead after 3 days."

 

As for your last point, I agree that we could not understand the life of god, or its divine plan.  But if that is true, then why tell humanity that their purpose is to get to heaven by being good, et al?  If that is the plan, then it's obviously not hard to understand, and if it's not, then why tell us it is?  It seems contradictory--either it's not to hard to understand, and therefore very disappointing, or it is too hard to comprehend, in which case I ask, why make s*** up or tell us anything at all?

 

What is the answer?  As Brant said in The Big Lebowski--"Well, dude, we just don't know."

thats giving alot of credit to people back then that well , for a better choice of words , lacked our knowledge today and were really ignorant of the how the world works compared to what we know as fact today...

 

just look back 50 years ago and how ignorant people were about things we take for granted today as fact..now think back 2000 years or more...the writers of the bible had to be inspired by our creator...no way they could have put that book together and not have it dimissed by our entire society if it was some great conspiracy...they would have goten too many things wrong..

[sox4lifeinPA]

(apparently "42" was not answer enough, despite Doug Adams' best efforts).

 

hehehehe...just wanted to laugh at that first...going back to reading now:)

 

quality jim, quality.

[BurlyMan56]

First off, Awesome Thread...

 

I see God as a huge spirit that has been brought upon us considering he has no gender,race,etc...

 

As for heaven, I feel it is a huge comfort zone with having eternal rest and peace with God...I think God doesnt reward you for what you did on earth, but expected you to do God, (expects us all too)

 

As for purgatory, I think it is a place to know we are all humans, make mistakes due to our freewill..We pray and ask for our forgiveness as we all join together...

 

As for our hell, IMO it is not a place with flames,devil,fire...It is not an actual place or anything...It is total separation from God, God doesnt send us there, we choose to go there based on our life here...

 

Note these are only my opinions, feel free to agree or disagree..

[Wong & Owens]

thats giving alot of credit to people back then that well , for a better choice of words , lacked our knowledge today and were really ignorant of the how the world works compared to what we know as fact today...

 

just look back 50 years ago and how ignorant people were about things we take for granted today as fact..now think back 2000 years or more...the writers of the bible had to be inspired by our creator...no way they could have put that book together and not have it dimissed by our entire society if it was some great conspiracy...they would have goten too many things wrong..

I would argue that it conatins plenty of things that most people have dismissed.

For example, I don't think anyone really believes anymore that adam and eve is a true story, or Noah and the Ark, or the Red Sea, etc.

 

We don't really know if the writers of the bible got things wrong or not--there's simply not enough corroborating data to say right or wrong. There's no real proof that most of the people in bible even existed--esp in the O.T.--the only evidence that they existed at all is found in the bible. The bible doesn't concern itself with documenting world events, so who knows if what it says really happened or not. Also, the stories they wrote don't require much knowledge of anything other than folklore passed to them, and a language to write with. It's not like the bible was describing how DNA works or anything. It's full of descriptive tales and exaggeration.

 

I would argue that the main reason it hasn't been dismissed by society is that A)we don't have enough knowledge yet to disprove it(but we've only used it for 2000 years. There are plenty of ancient religions, now regarded as bunk, that existed that long), and B) People are dismissing it without saying they dismiss it. It's no coincidence that Catholic schools are closing due to shrinking enrollment, or that churches are seeing smaller and smaller audiences. How many people fast on fridays? What's the divorce rate these days? How many people are becoming priests/nuns anymore? All these answers point towards dismissing religion, even if most folks are too scared by what they were taught in childhood to come out and say so.

[sox4lifeinPA]

There's no real proof that most of the people in bible even existed--esp in the O.T.--the only evidence that they existed at all is found in the bible. The bible doesn't concern itself with documenting world events, so who knows if what it says really happened or not.

 

I could be way off, but I'm pretty sure there are records of kings and events from the bible actually happening. For instance, and I did a short paper on an article for my anthropology class...here's a snipet:

 

Scientists studying a tunnel in what was once ancient Jerusalem have discovered its age. Using radio-dating technology, archaeologists have determined that the tunnel was probably built around 700 B.C. The significance of this evidence is that the dating coincides with the biblical writings in which the tunnel is described. Under King Hezekiah, workers were commissioned to build a tunnel that ran underneath Old Jerusalem, in order to protect the city in the event of a siege by the Assyrians.

 

pretty cool, IMO.

 

sometimes I think people just assume that biblical events are untrue because of the metaphors, symbolism and the implications of the message. 6 days or 6 billion years, creation happened at some point. Man dawned on the earth and became it's ruler and religion has become a tool of good and evil. hmmm, wonder why?

[CrimsonWeltall]

Man dawned on the earth and became it's ruler

 

because man uses tools

 

and religion has become a tool of good and evil.

 

see above