SnB Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I have been in Catholic School from Kindergarten to this year(my senior year) and while I'm religous, I find the church to be ridiculous. I believe in heaven, I believe in hell, I believe in an in-between (purgatory). I don't think you have to go along with any Church's rules. You don't need to go to church every sunday, you don't need to have sacraments. I think the Churches have missed the entire point. They have gotten completely wrapped up in themselves. I believe if your a good person, you try to do the right things, help other, etc. Then you will go to heaven. Not everyone needs be dragged to church every sunday, when they don't want to be there. You should be able to talk to God on your own time, when you really want to. But, hey that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I have been in Catholic School from Kindergarten to this year(my senior year) and while I'm religous, I find the church to be ridiculous. I believe in heaven, I believe in hell, I believe in an in-between (purgatory). I don't think you have to go along with any Church's rules. You don't need to go to church every sunday, you don't need to have sacraments. I think the Churches have missed the entire point. They have gotten completely wrapped up in themselves. I believe if your a good person, you try to do the right things, help other, etc. Then you will go to heaven. Not everyone needs be dragged to church every sunday, when they don't want to be there. You should be able to talk to God on your own time, when you really want to. But, hey that's just me. I agree with you SNB. My aunt is a extremely religious lady and always b****es about me not attending church.....ever. I always told my aunt that if God existed, how hard would it be for him to prove it to me? She always ties in some philosphical bulls*** such as, "he is all around you." Regardless of any evidence I still do believe in an afterlife. After my uncle died I became really depressed and was looking around the internet for articles trying to prove the existence of God. There were several interesting topics which were discussed. One was the pure fact that we are standing here right now.....at this point and this time. Think about the odds of Earths existence alone: atmospheric conditions (perfect amount of elements are balanced for our survival), promixity to the sun (not too far or too close) and how that the Earth existed long enough for man to evolve. The odds of life being the work of coincidence doesn't seem right. A quote from the movie "The Mothman Prophecies" comes to mind. During the movie it was believed that higher spirits were trying to contact humans about impending danger. One scene involved the author of a paranormal book being asked "Why don't they just tell us what they want" The author replied "You're more evolved then a cockroach. Have you ever tried explaining yourself to one." Think about the relationship to God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I could be way off, but I'm pretty sure there are records of kings and events from the bible actually happening. For instance, and I did a short paper on an article for my anthropology class...here's a snipet: pretty cool, IMO. sometimes I think people just assume that biblical events are untrue because of the metaphors, symbolism and the implications of the message. 6 days or 6 billion years, creation happened at some point. Man dawned on the earth and became it's ruler and religion has become a tool of good and evil. hmmm, wonder why? I didn't say that there was no corroborating proof that ANY person in the bible existed, just that there are plenty of folks whose names only exist thanks to the bible at this point(saying most do may be overreaching on my part, I'm really not sure enough to say that yet). I would expect that you'd find more corroboration for people such as kings, queens, rulers etc, than you would for Job, Noah, Issac, et al, yes? Is there one piece of non-biblical data that exists that proves the existence of Moses? You'd think with the way he messed up the pharaoah's s***, it would be painted on a wall somewhere in Egypt or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I have been in Catholic School from Kindergarten to this year(my senior year) and while I'm religous, I find the church to be ridiculous. I believe in heaven, I believe in hell, I believe in an in-between (purgatory). I don't think you have to go along with any Church's rules. You don't need to go to church every sunday, you don't need to have sacraments. I think the Churches have missed the entire point. They have gotten completely wrapped up in themselves. I believe if your a good person, you try to do the right things, help other, etc. Then you will go to heaven. Not everyone needs be dragged to church every sunday, when they don't want to be there. You should be able to talk to God on your own time, when you really want to. But, hey that's just me. My sentiments exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Think about the odds of Earths existence alone: atmospheric conditions (perfect amount of elements are balanced for our survival), promixity to the sun (not too far or too close) and how that the Earth existed long enough for man to evolve. Think about the odds of drawing a royal flush in poker. If you drew one, would you think that it was due to a supernatural force? One scene involved the author of a paranormal book being asked "Why don't they just tell us what they want" The author replied "You're more evolved then a cockroach. Have you ever tried explaining yourself to one." That alien analogy is pretty weak. Cockroaches aren't self-aware or capable of language. Humans are. If Aliens wanted some water, they could come down and point to a picture of some water. If they wanted human organs, they'd come down and just start takin em. They wouldn't have a problem getting their point across unless it was overly complex like "we require supplies of Einsteinium" It gets even weaker when you exchange aliens for an omnipotent being. OH I HAVE THE POWER TO DO EVERYTHING...EXCEPT COMMUNICATE WITH HUMANS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Think about the odds of drawing a royal flush in poker. If you drew one, would you think that it was due to a supernatural force? That alien analogy is pretty weak. Cockroaches aren't self-aware or capable of language. The first one is luck. And the human factor (human shuffles, deals, etc..) As for the second one... how do you know..? I mean c'mon.. they are the most disgusting and vile things ever.. yet they have maintained existance for what.. a bazzillion years..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 The first one is luck. And the human factor (human shuffles, deals, etc..) The point was that an unlikely event occuring does not mean that the supernatural must be invoked. We are here because the Earth had suitable conditions. The Earth's conditions aren't here just for us. As for the second one... how do you know..? I mean c'mon.. they are the most disgusting and vile things ever.. yet they have maintained existance for what.. a bazzillion years..? Cockroachs' survival ability doesn't have to do with their intelligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I have been in Catholic School from Kindergarten to this year(my senior year) and while I'm religous, I find the church to be ridiculous. I believe in heaven, I believe in hell, I believe in an in-between (purgatory). I don't think you have to go along with any Church's rules. You don't need to go to church every sunday, you don't need to have sacraments. I think the Churches have missed the entire point. They have gotten completely wrapped up in themselves. I believe if your a good person, you try to do the right things, help other, etc. Then you will go to heaven. Not everyone needs be dragged to church every sunday, when they don't want to be there. You should be able to talk to God on your own time, when you really want to. But, hey that's just me. I agree to a certain extent. While a lot of the ceremony may be useless, I believe the concept of church is very important. My education has been the opposite of yours, I have never attended a catholic school. So without church, I would know very little of the bible, and the life of Jesus Christ, I would be lacking the knowledge to form my own beliefs. I also believe that the church is an important place for peace, where one can worship in peace. While my beliefs are very different than that of the catholic church, and every other church for that matter, I still believe it is important to go to church. I am hypocritical though because each of the last three weeks when my dad woke me up for church I said screw it and went back to sleep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 By the way, for those interested in why things happen and whether or not God has a plan for us, I recommend seeing Signs. Very good movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Think about the odds of drawing a royal flush in poker. If you drew one, would you think that it was due to a supernatural force? How many variables are there in a game of cards.........now how many variables are needed for a planet to first be created, then have conditions for life to evolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnB Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I agree to a certain extent. While a lot of the ceremony may be useless, I believe the concept of church is very important. My education has been the opposite of yours, I have never attended a catholic school. So without church, I would know very little of the bible, and the life of Jesus Christ, I would be lacking the knowledge to form my own beliefs. I also believe that the church is an important place for peace, where one can worship in peace. While my beliefs are very different than that of the catholic church, and every other church for that matter, I still believe it is important to go to church. I am hypocritical though because each of the last three weeks when my dad woke me up for church I said screw it and went back to sleep I agree with you, sort of. Church is the perfect setting for 'talking to God' and finding out what it's all about. It's very peaceful, serene. I believe you should go there when you want to/need to. I don't think you should be required/dragged to Church every sunday and just be bored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Think about the odds of Earths existence alone: atmospheric conditions (perfect amount of elements are balanced for our survival), promixity to the sun (not too far or too close) and how that the Earth existed long enough for man to evolve. This common argument is pretzel logic. We are, by definition, borne into the very heart of the most improbable thing in a chaotic, entropic universe: ordered, sentient living systems. That's merely because interstellar hydrogen atoms don't think about such things as they whiz along in this expanding universe while we do. The odds against life in the harshness of the universe are staggering indeed, yet here we are. But A (our being here) doesn't prove B (a Divine Agent making it so). Out of millions of systems and billions of stars, Life IS the exception and not the rule (at the same time, the law of averages sides with the probability that life occurs elsewhere as well). The complexity of living systems is amazing, and it at first glance seems to be too 'perfect' to be the result of anything other than a Divine Hand. But, the fact that 99% of all forms of life that once existed on earth are now extinct defies the notion of organisms being created perfectly adapted to life on a perfectly created earth. Furthermore, the well-documented trend of the complex/adapted arising from the simple/primitive in living body plans etc., demonstrates that life took on today's complexity over 3.5 billion years or so of organic evolution. Hundreds of millions of years of simultaneous experiments conducted in billions of separate "laboratories" (individual living organsisms) has led to amazingly complex and adapted modern forms. But, neither divine nor teleological forces (the supposed pre-destined place of man at the top of the heap - rubbish) need to be invoked to arive at that complexity. All the jazz about the bible not being refuted etc., is an argument that can never be won if you are debating literalist fundamentalists. To them, 6 days is 6 days, the Earth is only 10K years old or so, fossils that science dates to much longer than that are evidence of a pre-deluvian fauna wiped out by the Old Testament flood, all the animals really did fit on the Ark, Lot's wife was turned unto a piller of salt, etc. The bible contains remarkable writings throughout, and so do many other texts of antiquity (the remarkable similarity of several creation accounts from various religions is worth looking at). And there is ample historical documentation of the existence of several biblical castmembers, including the Nazz himself, of course. But it ain't science, and it ain't history, and it ain't the perfect in-toto guide for living in the 21st century, no matter how many people want to insist otherwise. CW is the real authority on all of this, and I think he is embarrased to read our penny-ante theological discourse. But he has previously on this board done a graet job in pointing out what parts of the bible really were the laying out of societal tennets of the day - ritual cleanliness, not eating cloven-hoved beastes, etc. Most of the guidelines were quite practical for the day. 'Unclean' animals were the source of contamination and disease, and rules making men wait x days after their wives were done being 'ritually unclean' each month put horny couples in each others arms at precicely the time in the ovulation cycle when women were most fertile. None of this was, to my knowledge claimed to be the literal Divine word of God in the way the Catholic Church has ruled the Gospels to be. Maybe CW will pitch in and fill in what I have left out in my ignorance. Finally, I'll posit that one can believe in purgatory without believing in Heaven or Hell. Yes, I have been forced to spend time in Gary, IN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Cockroachs' survival ability doesn't have to do with their intelligence. How do you know..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 The point was that an unlikely event occuring does not mean that the supernatural must be invoked. You have that exactly right, I applaud you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 You have that exactly right, I applaud you. Oh.. I don't know about that. Just the other day I had $200 on a hand of BJ.. was dealt a 13.. and I prayed like a nun for that 8... I got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 This common argument is pretzel logic. We are, by definition, borne into the very heart of the most improbable thing in a chaotic, entropic universe: ordered, sentient living systems. That's merely because interstellar hydrogen atoms don't think about such things as they whiz along in this expanding universe while we do. The odds against life in the harshness of the universe are staggering indeed, yet here we are. But A (our being here) doesn't prove B (a Divine Agent making it so). Out of millions of systems and billions of stars, Life IS the exception and not the rule (at the same time, the law of averages sides with the probability that life occurs elsewhere as well). Thats a good analysis Flasoxjim. From your post it seems you are questionable on the existence of God. Am I right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Oh.. I don't know about that. Just the other day I had $200 on a hand of BJ.. was dealt a 13.. and I prayed like a nun for that 8... I got it. LOL! We're all the praying type at the blackjack table I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 This common argument is pretzel logic. We are, by definition, borne into the very heart of the most improbable thing in a chaotic, entropic universe: ordered, sentient living systems. That's merely because interstellar hydrogen atoms don't think about such things as they whiz along in this expanding universe while we do. The odds against life in the harshness of the universe are staggering indeed, yet here we are. But A (our being here) doesn't prove B (a Divine Agent making it so). Out of millions of systems and billions of stars, Life IS the exception and not the rule (at the same time, the law of averages sides with the probability that life occurs elsewhere as well). The complexity of living systems is amazing, and it at first glance seems to be too 'perfect' to be the result of anything other than a Divine Hand. But, the fact that 99% of all forms of life that once existed on earth are now extinct defies the notion of organisms being created perfectly adapted to life on a perfectly created earth. Furthermore, the well-documented trend of the complex/adapted arising from the simple/primitive in living body plans etc., demonstrates that life took on today's complexity over 3.5 billion years or so of organic evolution. Hundreds of millions of years of simultaneous experiments conducted in billions of separate "laboratories" (individual living organsisms) has led to amazingly complex and adapted modern forms. But, neither divine nor teleological forces (the supposed pre-destined place of man at the top of the heap - rubbish) need to be invoked to arive at that complexity. All the jazz about the bible not being refuted etc., is an argument that can never be won if you are debating literalist fundamentalists. To them, 6 days is 6 days, the Earth is only 10K years old or so, fossils that science dates to much longer than that are evidence of a pre-deluvian fauna wiped out by the Old Testament flood, all the animals really did fit on the Ark, Lot's wife was turned unto a piller of salt, etc. The bible contains remarkable writings throughout, and so do many other texts of antiquity (the remarkable similarity of several creation accounts from various religions is worth looking at). And there is ample historical documentation of the existence of several biblical castmembers, including the Nazz himself, of course. But it ain't science, and it ain't history, and it ain't the perfect in-toto guide for living in the 21st century, no matter how many people want to insist otherwise. CW is the real authority on all of this, and I think he is embarrased to read our penny-ante theological discourse. But he has previously on this board done a graet job in pointing out what parts of the bible really were the laying out of societal tennets of the day - ritual cleanliness, not eating cloven-hoved beastes, etc. Most of the guidelines were quite practical for the day. 'Unclean' animals were the source of contamination and disease, and rules making men wait x days after their wives were done being 'ritually unclean' each month put horny couples in each others arms at precicely the time in the ovulation cycle when women were most fertile. None of this was, to my knowledge claimed to be the literal Divine word of God in the way the Catholic Church has ruled the Gospels to be. Maybe CW will pitch in and fill in what I have left out in my ignorance. Finally, I'll posit that one can believe in purgatory without believing in Heaven or Hell. Yes, I have been forced to spend time in Gary, IN. From what I have heard, the chances of a planet creating life are the equivelant to a tornado going through a junkyard and assembling an airplane. (I didn't make that up, a science teacher told me, and yes it was a public school teacher, but no it wasn't a discussion about God, so you can put the ACLU credentials away). I believe that there probably is life on another planet, there is a good chance that life has existed else where in our own solar system (mars), so that shows that it is likely life does exist elsewhere. But who's to say that if they are intelligent that they don't have a religion similar to ours. There is so much stuff that seems improbable but can happen. As far as 6 days being 6 days, even though it probably wasn't like that much of the bible is made up of miracles, so from that viewpoint it is possible. Like I said, I believe God was more of a catalyst of the big bang and such. Earlier I mentioned that I don't beleive it to be possible for the entire earth to be flooded and Noah somehow was able to summon all of the animals and such. I once debated this once with a friend who is a hardcore religious literalist(not sure if that is a word, but he takes the bible literally). When I said that it just couldn't be possible, he pointed it out that if God does interfere with our lives, than it would be entirely possible. I still don't believe it though. Just a quickie on guidelines in the bible, I read recently that every male shall wear tassles on the four corners of his clothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 How do you know..? If they were smart they wouldn't keep going to that hotel behind my grandma's fridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 If they were smart they wouldn't keep going to that hotel behind my grandma's fridge. Seriously... how does a species continue to survive for billions of years.. without some sort of intelligence? Heck.. look at us.. we supposedly have brains and every time you turn around someone wants to drop the bomb and wipe us all out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 God is very real, and I believe in all of the Church's teachings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 How many variables are there in a game of cards.........now how many variables are needed for a planet to first be created, then have conditions for life to evolve. Who knows? But the point still stands. The possibility of trillions of trillions of celestial bodies makes beating the odds easier. How do you know..? Cockroaches are physically tough, don't succumb to disease, eat almost anything, and can survive in a large range of conditions. What signs of high-intelligence do cockroaches show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Earlier I mentioned that I don't beleive it to be possible for the entire earth to be flooded and Noah somehow was able to summon all of the animals and such I don't beleve Noahs flood happen either. Odd how CIA has classified satellite photos of the peak surrounding Mt. Ararat (?) Why else would they unless there in absolutely nothing up there, thus rendering the entire story baseless. Supposedly, people believe that remnants of this ship are still up there in the mountain. Good luck trying to find proof because the Turkish government forbids access . You can hike any other mountain........except that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I didn't say that there was no corroborating proof that ANY person in the bible existed, just that there are plenty of folks whose names only exist thanks to the bible at this point(saying most do may be overreaching on my part, I'm really not sure enough to say that yet). I would expect that you'd find more corroboration for people such as kings, queens, rulers etc, than you would for Job, Noah, Issac, et al, yes? Is there one piece of non-biblical data that exists that proves the existence of Moses? You'd think with the way he messed up the pharaoah's s***, it would be painted on a wall somewhere in Egypt or something. my very atheistic anthrpology prof, whom has 15+ years of archaeology field work under his belt, said that only about 3-5% of historical sites, documents, etc would ever be found. That's obviously an average, but as time goes by more and more "evidence" becomes destroyed or lost. there's a whole lot out there we'll never know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I don't beleve Noahs flood happen either. Odd how CIA has classified satellite photos of the peak surrounding Mt. Ararat (?) Why else would they unless there is absolutely nothing up there, thus rendering another aspect of the bible false. Supposedly, people believe that remnants of this ship are still up there in the mountain. Good luck trying to hike up there because the Turkish government forbids that. Hike any other mountain........except that one. My friend gave me a web-site that supposedly shows it. It was linked to the discovery channel, I didn't bother to look, too lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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