MUST READ COMMENTARY

[israel4ever]

Please read the commentary titled, "Israeli Good Deed Only Brings More Punishment".

 

The author has an excellant insight to this problem.

 

(I would have "linked" it here, but I am "computer-illiterate", and don't know how to do so.)

 

Shalom to you all!

 

[SuperSteve]

[LowerCaseRepublican]

This is the article:

 

Negotiating with terrorists is bargaining with the devil. The Israelis know this, of course, but sometimes they believe they have to. The hazard in doing so, though, surfaced immediately last week in Israel's prisoner exchange with Hezbollah. The terrorists declared victory in winning freedom for 400 Palestinian and 23 Lebanese prisoners and proclaimed a campaign to kidnap Israelis.

 

The next day another terrorist gang, Hamas, said it too would abduct Israelis to gain release of thugs and murderers held in Israeli jails. This would mark a dangerous escalation of the conflict. But history does repeat itself. In 2000, Israel, for its own reasons, withdrew its forces from Lebanon, and Hezbollah declared it had driven them out. The Palestinians bought that nonsense, and Yasser Arafat, who was never interested in a negotiated peace anyway, torpedoed the Camp David summit, rejected the most generous peace offer ever made by Israel and launched the current terrorist war.

 

The best impulses led Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to the prisoner exchange. The bodies of three slain Israeli soldiers were returned. A businessman kidnapped a couple of years ago was freed. And an opening maybe has been secured for getting information about an Israeli flier captured 18 years ago.

 

Still, the prisoner exchange brought no letup in terrorism. Dozens of attacks are attempted daily, but most are foiled. Unfortunately on Thursday a human bomb -- one of Arafat's policemen no less -- exploded on a Jerusalem bus, killing 11 people and wounding 50. Here is blood- stained evidence of why Israel needs to complete the security fence to separate its people, its communities, its buses from the murder and mayhem a sick Palestinian culture exalts.

 

Graphic images of this atrocity will be exhibit A at an international court session set Feb. 23 to hear Palestinian complaints about the fence. The charred, mangled hulk of a bus may also be transported to the Hague. Hopefully this will be persuasive, but it will be swimming against rising European anti-Semitism. The Bush administration has rightly observed that the court has no jurisdiction over measures of self-defense.

 

Sharon plans a trip to Washington to try to win President Bush's support for his plan to disengage unilaterally from the Palestinians if they don't -- and Arafat won't -- root out terrorism and negotiate in good faith. We don't know the details of what he will propose. But given the lessons of dealing with Hezbollah, we wouldn't be surprised to hear Sharon say that disengagement doesn't mean an end to Israeli army operations in the disputed territories. For the simple truth is that a unilateral pullback behind the security fence would be seized by Palestinian radicals to claim an Israeli retreat and defeat. Such is the lure of self-delusion in the Palestinian world, but, as Thursday's bombing demonstrates, it is a delusion the Israelis can't allow to stand.

 

 

----

My commentary:

 

This article has quite the Zionist slant. The Int'l Criminal Court should have jurisdiction over these events. The only reason Bush got out was so he could invade Iraq.

 

The article claims that what Israel is doing is "self defense". However, this is not the case. Since 1967, Israel has maintained tens of thousands of heavily armed troops outside its borders for the purposes of stealing land from the Palestinians and forcing them to live as non-citizens under a foreign military dictatorship.

 

Seized Palestinian land has been used to build Jewish-only settlements linked by a network of Jewish-only roads, in flagrant violation of UN Security Council Resolutions and the Fourth Geneva Convention. This colonization is, and can only be, carried out by the violent suppression of any and all Palestinian resistance to the occupation.

 

Throughout the years of the "peace process" during the 1990s, Israel continued to construct settlements, doubling the number of settlers in the West Bank from about 100,000 to 200,000 according to the Israeli group "Peace Now." At least 34 new settlements have been built since Sharon took office.

 

The settlement colonization policy is, and can only be carried out by the violent suppression of any and all Palestinian resistance to the occupation. Throughout the years of the "peace process" Israel continued to construct settlements, doubling the number of settlers according to the Israeli group "Peace Now."

 

The entire international community has recognized that Israel's military occupation must end, and that its continuation, along with the settlement policy, and the massive repression they entail is a guarantee of continued bloodshed. Israel's brutal actions in the occupied territories are designed to consolidate and entrench the occupation and expand Israeli colonization, and are therefore, by definition, not defensive in nature.

 

As for Arafat claiming he doesn't want peace, perhaps the author didn't see these: On Palestinian TV, on 28 March 2002, at 20:08 GMT, Arafat stated in Arabic:

 

"On this occasion, I would like once again to reiterate our condemnation of yesterday's operation in Netanya, in which a number of innocent Israeli civilians were killed and wounded. This operation constitutes a deviation from our policy and a violation of our national and human values. I affirm our commitment to working toward an immediate cease-fire, as we informed General Zinni. We highly value his efforts. We informed him that we are ready for the immediate implementation of the Tenet's work plan without conditions, and without prejudicing any of its articles. Also, we have informed him of our readiness to implement the Mitchell Report recommendations in cooperation with the four-way US-Russian-European-UN committee headed by Gen. Zinni."

 

On December 16, 2001, in a speech on the occasion of Id al-Fitr in Ramallah (Gaza Palestine Satellite Channel Television, in Arabic, on 16 December 2001 at 16:00 GMT) Arafat stated in Arabic:

 

"Today, I emphasize once again the complete and immediate halt to all armed operations. Once again, I call for a complete halt to all operations, especially suicidal operations, which we have always condemned. We will punish all those who carry out and mastermind such operations. This also applies to the firing of mortar shells, which have no objective but to provide an excuse for the Israeli attacks on us, our people, our children, and our women. Any violation of this decision will be considered an attempt to harm the higher national interests of our people and of our Arab nation."

 

Israel and its supporters claim that while Palestinian suicide bombers deliberately target Israeli civilians, Israel tries to avoid harming Palestinian civilians and that those who have died are "collateral damage." Hence, they argue, there is no moral equivalence between the killing of civilians by Israel and Palestinians. This defies both common sense and all the available evidence.

 

On the one hand, Israel wants us to believe that 400 of its own civilians were deliberately targeted, while more than three times as many dead Palestinians all somehow just got in the way of what Israel claims is its humane and disciplined army. It is, in essence, an argument that 1,500 people all died by accident.

 

Every human rights group that has examined Israel's practices has documented systematic and deliberate use of violence targeted at unarmed Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces. Physicians for Human Rights USA which investigated the high number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the first months of the Intifada, concluded that:

 

"the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF [israel Defense Forces] use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing."

 

[source: PHR USA, 22 November 2000]

 

This finding was based on "the totality of the evidence" the investigators collected about:

 

"the high number of gunshots to the head; the volume of serious, disabling thigh injuries; the inappropriate firing of rubber bullets and rubber-coated steel bullets at close range; and the high proportion of Palestinian injuries and deaths."

 

The findings of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch confirm this pattern. Israeli human rights group B'Tselem has documented and condemned the targeted use of violence against Palestinian civilians and has found evidence of systematic torture of thousands of Palestinian detainees, including children.

 

What has been confirmed by human rights groups has also been observed directly by journalists.

 

What has been confirmed by human rights groups has also been observed directly by journalists.

 

In October 2001, Harper's magazine published the "Gaza Diary" of journalist Chris Hedges. Hedges' entry for June 17, 2001 provides even more shocking evidence of the wanton and deliberate killing of Palestinian children by Israeli soldiers at Gaza's Khan Yunis refugee camp.

 

Hedges writes:

 

"I sit in the shade of a palm-roofed hut on the edge of the dunes, momentarily defeated by the heat, the grit, the jostling crowds, the stench of the open sewers and rotting garbage. A friend of Azmi's brings me, on a tray, a cold glass of tart, red carcade juice."

 

"Barefoot boys, clutching kites made out of scraps of paper and ragged soccer balls, squat a few feet away under scrub trees. Men in flowing white or gray galabias -- homespun robes -- smoke cigarettes in the shade of slim eaves. Two emaciated donkeys, their ribs protruding, are tethered to wooden carts with rubber wheels."

 

"It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker."

 

""Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!""

 

"I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a b****!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's c***!""

 

"The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come."

 

"A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos."

 

"Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered -- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."

 

There can be no doubt that Israeli troops have been targeting innocent Palestinian civilians for death from the beginning of the uprising. This understanding was also reflected in UN Security Council Resolution 1322, passed on October 7, 2000, which:

 

"Condemns acts of violence, especially the excessive use of force against Palestinians, resulting in injury and loss of human life."

 

In making the moral superiority claim, Israel's apologists are either shamelessly denying the irrefutable evidence cited above and are simply lying, or they are asserting that some forms of murder are morally superior to other forms of murder.

[Texsox]

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Here we go again. Ladies and gentlemen please fasten your seat belts.

[israel4ever]

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Here we go again. Ladies and gentlemen please fasten your seat belts.

Texsox...I am NOT going to go off again...Apu (as usual) is 100% wrong, so I'm not gonna argue with him, and the rest of the pro-terrorists!

 

Suffice it to say, since it was NEVER "palestinian" land, Israel could not have stolen it from the "palis", so, Apu's theories are wrong from the start! (He likes to quote such "reliable" sources as Al Jazeera and the BBC!)

 

Take care!!!

[Pale Hose Jon]

Apu (as usual) is 100% wrong, so I'm not gonna argue with him, and the rest of the pro-terrorists!

 

Suffice it to say, since it was NEVER "palestinian" land, Israel could not have stolen it from the "palis", so, Apu's theories are wrong from the start! (He likes to quote such "reliable" sources as Al Jazeera and the BBC!)

 

Take care!!!

Pro-terrorists, are you blind. Go reread the thread from a couple of weeks ago.

 

I love when you say it was never palestinian land, so before 1948 what was it called?

[SuperSteve]

I love when you say it was never palestinian land, so before 1948 what was it called?

Whogivesaf***land. Which was ruled by Emperor Noone Cares.

 

 

I'm sorry, I couldn't stop myself.

[Pale Hose Jon]

Whogivesaf***land. Which was ruled by Emperor Noone Cares.

 

 

I'm sorry, I couldn't stop myself.  

I'm hurt and i will spend the rest of the night drowning my sorrow in boooos

[SuperSteve]

I'm hurt and i will spend the rest of the night drowning my sorrow in boooos        

Well you're certainly getting booed here.

[cwsox]

Pro-terrorists, are you blind. Go reread the thread from a couple of weeks ago.

 

I love when you say it was never palestinian land, so before 1948 what was it called?

Here is a thought -

 

if God were a landlord -

 

and of course the Palestinians are the descendents of people who lived there before Abraham and his foreign entourage first arrived from Babylon (Iraq - yes, Abreham was an Iraqi) -

 

if the land was given to the 12 tribes of Israel, God removed that gift first in th loss of 10 tribes of Northern Israel forever to the Assyrians in the 7th-8th century BCE and then in about 585 BCE the final two tribes of the nation of Judah were removed by the Babylonians - the Biblical record makes clear this was a revocation of the "gift"

 

God then restored, after a few generations, the right of the descendants of Judah who were in captivity in Babylon, to return to the old neighborhood - and this happened without war being waged on Israel's (Judah's) part - it was a gift without war

 

then in 70 CE and finally about 120 CE the Romans destroyed Jerusalem (rebuilt after the return from Bablyon) and of course the Temple in 70 CE and deported every living Jew escape a handful eho escaped, who they came back and got around 120 CE, deporting the last suriving Jew in that area. Suely if God is God, this would be God's action as it was when it was the Asyrians and Babylonians doing it - if one takes the prophets seriously.

 

Then it would follow that as the Hasidic felt in 1947 and 1948 that if God wants to restore the gift, God will do so without war. But the Biblical obligation which "gives" the gift also at the same time cntains very strict commandments that the foreigner, the alien, the sojourner, the one is not a member of the community (ie the palastinians who have lived there for millenia) must be made welcome and treated as one of the community - thus says the Bible, the document which purports to give the gift of this land.

 

The situation of Israel in 1967 and the 1970s no longer pertains.

 

One of the most chilling scenes in The Pianist is when the nazis begin to erect the wall. to wall off, to ghetto off, the Jews. The current situation drips with irony.

[Queen Prawn]

Whogivesaf***land. Which was ruled by Emperor Noone Cares.

 

 

I'm sorry, I couldn't stop myself.  

LMAO! Thanks - I needed a good laugh to properly start my day!

[sox4lifeinPA]

a brief synopsis of this thread

 

israel4ever: you damn anti-semites

apu: shut up you moron...blah blah blah blah blah

tex: oh lord, not this again

steve: you f***ing idiots, shut up.

*****: how much wood could a woodchuck, chuck? if a woodchuck could chuck wood? a woodchuck could chuck no amount of wood because a wood chuck can't chuck wood. did I mention, I'm ordained?

[israel4ever]

"The Jewish People base their claim to Israel on (at least) 4 premises: 1) G-d promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the Land; 3) the international community granted sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in DEFENSIVE wars."

 

Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile (70 A.D.) , Jewish life in "Palestine" continued/flourished. Large Jewish communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the 9th Century...in the 11th Century , Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.The Crusaders massacred many Jews in the 12th Century, but the community rebounded in the next 2 centuries due to heavy Jewish immigration.

 

Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the UN partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existance."

 

Mitchell Bard - "Myth and Facts...A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict

[LowerCaseRepublican]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

 

For the Zionists, in the audience. The Nazi era is the most discussed period in history, yet most Jews and other Americans are unaware of the interaction between Zionism and Hitler and Mussolini. The reason is simple and stark: the Zionist record is dishonorable. This book brings to light, through the use of actual historic documents, the disservice that the Zionists did to Jews before and during the Holocaust. Some of these documents were published in English decades ago, but are only now seeing the light of day. Others are being translated into English for the first time. Included are documents from Propaganda Minister Goebbels' newspaper, Der Angriff, detailing an SS-man's visit to Palestine as the Zionists' guest. Readers will also learn about Adolf Eichmann's account of his personal dealings with the Hungarian Zionist Rezsö Kasztner, who was later assassinated in Israel as a Nazi collaborator who betrayed 400,000 Hungarian Jews. Also revealed is pro-Zionist propaganda put out by the Nazis, such as a medal for getting Jews to Palestine and a Nazi board game where the object is to move Jews to Palestine. The documents contained in this book were selected with due care so that a rounded picture of history emerges. The author concludes that Zionism betrayed the Jews; and the evidence that led him to that conclusion is contained in this book. This book shows that the consequences of Zionism demand exposure.

[SuperSteve]

a brief synopsis of this thread

 

israel4ever: you damn anti-semites

apu: shut up you moron...blah blah blah blah blah

tex: oh lord, not this again

steve: you f***ing idiots, shut up.

*****: how much wood could a woodchuck, chuck? if a woodchuck could chuck wood? a woodchuck could chuck no amount of wood because a wood chuck can't chuck wood. did I mention, I'm ordained?

And now repeat.

[BrandoFan]

*****: how much wood could a woodchuck, chuck? if a woodchuck could chuck wood? a woodchuck could chuck no amount of wood because a wood chuck can't chuck wood. did I mention, I'm ordained?

 

Two things:

 

1. What's so hard about calling him "CW". I do it. Everybody do it. Are you better than everybody, PA? Prettier sure, but better? I don't think so.

 

2. His post was informative and very much on-topic in light of Izzy's

historico-religious claims with regard to Eretz Issroel.

[Gene Honda Civic]

I don't know the reaction that this one is going to get...

 

No matter which way you look at the situation it's sad. So play this game, and remember its just a game, the people aren't real. It may be in poor taste, but lighten the F up.

 

Suicide Bomber game.... (you can tell by the name of the game whether you'll be offended or not. If you think you may, don't click the link... p.s. the best I did was 7 dead, 3 women though, no children)

[Flash Tizzle]

I don't know the reaction that this one is going to get...

 

No matter which way you look at the situation it's sad.  So play this game, and remember its just a game, the people aren't real.  It may be in poor taste, but lighten the F up.

 

Suicide Bomber game.... (you can tell by the name of the game whether you'll be offended or not. If you think you may, don't click the link... p.s. the best I did was 7 dead, 3 women though, no children)

I can't kill more than 5 people!

[sox4lifeinPA]

Two things:

 

1.  What's so hard about calling him "CW".  I do it. Everybody do it. Are you better than everybody, PA? Prettier sure, but better?  I don't think so.

 

2.  His post was informative and very much on-topic in light of Izzy's

historico-religious claims with regard to Eretz Issroel.

1) I'm not allowed to

 

2) I guess i don't have the intelligence, the experience, nor the maturity to read through all 12 pages of some posters remarks

 

3) I hate not having internet at work

 

4) when is israel4ever going to get his award from the cheat for most likely to insight a riot?

[BrandoFan]

1) I'm not allowed to

 

2) I guess i don't have the intelligence, the experience, nor the maturity to read through all 12 pages of some posters remarks

 

3) I hate not having internet at work

 

4) when is israel4ever going to get his award from the cheat for most likely to insight a riot?

 

1) Bulls***. You're not allowed to refer to him by his NAME. Neither am I. Only his friends are. CW is not his name, so it's ok to say it.

 

2) Weak. If you haven't even read the post, don't satirize it as though you have.

 

3) Never give in to crack whores. They may have won this round, but there's always tire-slashing.

 

4) Izzy can't help his nature. Neither can Apu. They took the bait. Not their fault.

 

It's imporant to remember that messing with CW is not recommended by the Surgeon General.

[sox4lifeinPA]

It's imporant to remember that messing with CW is not recommended by the Surgeon General

 

***** can kiss my ass....I don't care who or what you are, but that attitude is why he thinks he's above everyone else.

 

THAT'S bs.........

[Flash Tizzle]

***** can kiss my ass....I don't care who or what you are, but that attitude is why he thinks he's above everyone else.

 

THAT'S bs.........

 

Whats with the asterisks? Are you saying some filtered word or is that some sort of inside joke? I realize its Cw, but don't understand the point of typing his name as *****.

[BrandoFan]

***** can kiss my ass....I don't care who or what you are, but that attitude is why he thinks he's above everyone else.

 

THAT'S bs.........

:headshake

[BrandoFan]

 

Whats with the asterisks?  Are you saying some filtered word or is that some sort of inside joke?  I realize its Cw, but don't understand the point of typing his name as *****.

PA is just unhappy about CW disagreeing with him and not allowing him to use his real name in vain.

 

I do not find constant ***** use as remotely clever.

 

PA has the ability to rise beyond petty differences, but apprently when it comes to CW, he's dug in deep. It's creepy.

[cwsox]

brandofan, flash, earlier today someone posted in a different thread

 

Don't you dare tell me what I am or what I'm not. You have no idea who I am, so keep your comments to yourself.

 

but the courtesy asked for is not extended to others which is why someone can say

 

he [as in, me, cwsox aka *****] thinks he's above everyone else.

 

Someone wants to take shots at me, they will. Its all ok. I'm not going to hash this out because I know where it started and I have hopes that given the passage of time and perhaps a few White Sox winning streaks everything will be ok again. PA is a good poster and a good Sox fan. He is ok. His friends speak well of him. That must be respected, as PA must be.

 

And Brando, you called the name thing right. I don't like seeing my name tossed out by people who are not saying it as a friend. Its my thing. No one sees me tossing other people's names out here other than Jas, who is fine with his name being used. It is a matter of respect for the wishes of others. A lot of folks don't want their real names thrown around out here, others don't care. cwsox is not my name (although it is my license plate).

 

But I am starting to like *****. BrandoFan, you know that in the Scriptures the name of God was so holy it is never spelled out - if someone wants to treat "cwsox" with that same holiness, it only calls attention to the word and backfires on the intent. Oh well. Life is filled with inconsistencies.

 

and I am done commenting on this and leave this discssion with good wishes for everyone