What are the Twinkies thinking?

[YASNY]

Those too....but I think a better manager gets through that somehow unscathed.  I just think of the Sosa situation on the NorthSide....he had a down year(though not a bad one), and was out for a little bit of time due to an injury early on and CorkGate....Dusty somehow pulled something out of his ass and they actually won quite a bit when he was out with his injury.

 

JMHO

That was too many key parts of the team faltering at once. I don't think anyone could have managed that and made it work.

[witesoxfan]

That was too many key parts of the team faltering at once.  I don't think anyone could have managed that and made it work.

Probably not....you are right. s***, now I'm backtracking.

 

Anyways, I think the thing I was pissed most about Manuel was how we looked like complete s*** in September....that quickly became a trademark of Manuel teams if they were in it. That alone was worth his firing.

 

Also, the GM should take some of the fall for this as well(I figure I can get away with saying this because no one has caught it yet). He keeps Foulke and does not get Koch, we free up $6 mill this year(or we resign Foulke), we have some dough to spend, our pen problems aren't as bad, we never have to worry about Billy Koch, and the phrase Carl f***ing Crawford is never coined. Maybe the only negative is that Manuel is not only here this year, but he is given an extension.

 

Hell, maybe s*** does happen for a reason.

[YASNY]

Probably not....you are right.  s***, now I'm backtracking. 

 

Anyways, I think the thing I was pissed most about Manuel was  how we looked like complete s*** in September....that quickly became a trademark of Manuel teams if they were in it.  That alone was worth his firing. 

 

Also, the GM should take some of the fall for this as well(I figure I can get away with saying this because no one has caught it yet).  He keeps Foulke and does not get Koch, we free up $6 mill this year(or we resign Foulke), we have some dough to spend, our pen problems aren't as bad, we never have to worry about Billy Koch, and the phrase Carl f***ing Crawford is never coined.  Maybe the only negative is that Manuel is not only here this year, but he is given an extension.

 

Hell, maybe s*** does happen for a reason. 

That's all hindsight. No one knew Koch was going to suck like he did.

[BrandoFan]

Those too....but I think a better manager gets through that somehow unscathed.  I just think of the Sosa situation on the NorthSide....he had a down year(though not a bad one), and was out for a little bit of time due to an injury early on and CorkGate....Dusty somehow pulled something out of his ass and they actually won quite a bit when he was out with his injury.

 

JMHO

What pisses me off most of all is the fact that:

 

-KW only pulled the Koch-Foulke out of money and personal reasons, without bothering to check the particulars about the former's wear-n-tear

 

-KW goy Rick White because he was cheap as well.

 

Those goons cost us at least 5-6 "extra" losses not only because of their "beautiful" performances, but also because we had to use Adkins, Wright, Pantigua, Show as their replacements, and they did even worse.

 

So even if I were to forget JM's incompetence AND Konerko's meltdown......the season was lost with those two moves before ST even began. (Which means that Robert Person and Shingo could potentially be season-breakers this year and we don't even know it!!)

 

What makes me even madder are those MYOPIC bozos who say that attendance doesn't matter in the long run. Well, guess what, if just a few more 100K fans came out to the park in 2002, the 2003 payroll would have been 3-4 Mill higher, which would have likely meant Sox woulda kept Foulke AND Osuna (or replaced the latter with an equvalent FA talent), which woulda likely led to a MUCH better start and an easy divisional wrap-up as Twinkies would have been sellers at the 2003 ASB......VOILA, White Sox are in the playoffs!

 

That's what you get when you bargain-hunt. If this year's team fiinishes 2 games out because the payrolll is 64 Mill instead of 68 Mill (as the case would have been had the 2003 squad been winning on a more consistent basis and attracted the crowds earlier), I wear I will go absolutely postal.

[BrandoFan]

Paulie is not a pure hitter....in fact, I would go as far as to say the White Sox do not have a pure hitter, and that is something they could use. Just a guy who hits .300 with maybe 10-15 homers who can get on base.

 

For me, I am a simple guy, I understand OPS, RBI, RISP-- you get the picture.

 

Watching Menkevich pant and sweat and choke the bat with his puny hands, I marvel at how this guy can even manage a 750 OPS.

 

Paulie has one of the prettiest, most natural RH swings in AL. If this guy ever got his mental s*** together, he is a 950 OPS/120 RBI waiting to happen. He is in a different league than Menkevich IMO..

 

Last year aside, I think Paulie has only began his prime. His trade value is low and I think he is eager to atone for his 2003 team-killing sins.

 

Put Kong in the 5th spot and F'GET'BA'IT!

[witesoxfan]

That's all hindsight.  No one knew Koch was going to suck like he did.

Yas, personally, I think the Koch deal is bad even if are looking at it right away. I'll admit that I liked it initially, but KW should have considered the whole thing. IMO, the only number he really needs to look at is the money for how long number, that is, how long will we have Koch, how long will we have Foulke. Foulke fell out of favor of management and therefore was traded....my thing is now, why not just stick with Foulke? Foulke can have one of the worst years of his career(maybe put up a 4.50 ERA) and Koch can win the Rolaids Relief award again....doesn't bother me. That happens, Foulke is gone, someone like Urbina is brought in, and we have our replacement right there.

 

I know this is hindsight and all, but let's pretend that is is Thanksgiving of 2002, and we just hear about a Foulke for Koch deal becoming a possibility. You then ask yourself two questions....does it make sense financially(which it did not, because we have Foulke for only $6 mill guaranteed, Koch for more then that, but we're not sure how much)? Then the second thing is, does it make sense baseball wise? That's yes and no....Foulke had a better statistical year in ERA and K/9IP and WHIP, but Koch had the hardware of Rolaids award winner and featured a high 90s fastball....that's a tough choice, but something KW should have said thanks, but not thanks to. We don't get Cotts, but we also don't lose a decent backup catcher and a decent relief prospect(who is now with Cinci).

 

As you say, it is hindsight, and not all would come true. Doesn't mean it ain't fun to speculate about what could've happened though.

[witesoxfan]

For me, I am a simple guy, I understand OPS, RBI, RISP-- you get the picture. 

 

Watching Menkevich pant and sweat and choke the bat with his puny hands, I marvel at how this guy can even manage a 750 OPS.

 

Paulie has one of the prettiest, most natural RH swings in AL. If this guy ever got his mental s*** together, he is a 950 OPS/120 RBI waiting to happen. He is in a different league than Menkevich IMO..

 

Last year aside, I think Paulie has only began his prime. His trade value is low and I tihnk he is eager to atone for his 2003 team-killing sins.

 

Put in the 5th spot and F'GET'BA'IT!

You and I both hope for the best.

[YASNY]

Yas, personally, I think the Koch deal is bad even if are looking at it right away.  I'll admit that I liked it initially, but KW should have considered the whole thing.  IMO, the only number he really needs to look at is the money for how long number, that is, how long will we have Koch, how long will we have Foulke.  Foulke fell out of favor of management and therefore was traded....my thing is now, why not just stick with Foulke?  Foulke can have one of the worst years of his career(maybe put up a 4.50 ERA) and Koch can win the Rolaids Relief award again....doesn't bother me.  That happens, Foulke is gone, someone like Urbina is brought in, and we have our replacement right there. 

 

I know this is hindsight and all, but let's pretend that is is Thanksgiving of 2002, and we just hear about a Foulke for Koch deal becoming a possibility.  You then ask yourself two questions....does it make sense financially(which it did not, because we have Foulke for only $6 mill guaranteed, Koch for more then that, but we're not sure how much)?  Then the second thing is, does it make sense baseball wise?  That's yes and no....Foulke had a better statistical year in ERA and K/9IP and WHIP, but Koch had the hardware of Rolaids award winner and featured a high 90s fastball....that's a tough choice, but something KW should have said thanks, but not thanks to.  We don't get Cotts, but we also don't lose a decent backup catcher and a decent relief prospect(who is now with Cinci). 

 

As you say, it is hindsight, and not all would come true.  Doesn't mean it ain't fun to speculate about what could've happened though. 

I know how I felt about the trade at the time it was made. Foulke was going to walk after the end of 2003 and Kock was tied up for 3 seasons. Financially and baseball wise it made sense. Valentine for Cotts is not a bad deal either, and if Mark Johnson was such a valueable backup where is he today? My reaction to losing MJ was as follows: "Yawn".

[southsideirish]

What pisses me off most of all is the fact that:

 

-KW only pulled the Koch-Foulke out of money and personal reasons, without bothering to check the particulars about the former's wear-n-tear

 

-KW goy Rick White because he was cheap as well.

 

Those goons cost us at least 5-6 "extra" losses not only because of their "beautiful" performances, but also because we had to use Adkins, Wright, Pantigua, Show as their replacements, and they did even worse.

 

So even if I were to forget JM's incompetence AND Konerko's meltdown......the season was lost with those two moves before ST even began. (Which means that Robert Person and Shingo could potentially be season-breakers this year and we don't even know it!!)

 

What makes me even madder are those MYOPIC bozos who say that attendance doesn't matter in the long run.  Well, guess what, if just a few more 100K fans came out to the park in 2002, the 2003 payroll would have been 3-4 Mill higher, which would have likely meant Sox woulda kept Foulke AND Osuna (or replaced the latter with an equvalent FA talent), which woulda likely led to a MUCH better start and an easy divisional wrap-up as Twinkies would have been sellers at the 2003 ASB......VOILA, White Sox are in the playoffs!

 

That's what you get when you bargain-hunt.  If this year's team fiinishes 2 games out because the payrolll is 64 Mill instead of 68 Mill (as the case would have been had the 2003 squad been winning on a more consistent basis and attracted the crowds earlier), I wear I will go absolutely postal.

Then how does Colon fit in Brando? Didn't we trade Osuna in the Colon deal. Yes I would like to have him instead of Rick White, but I believe we signed Gordon to replace Osuna. Would we have signed Gordon if we had Osuna? I belive the Colon deal should be factored in there somewhere.

[BrandoFan]

As you say, it is hindsight, and not all would come true. Doesn't mean it ain't fun to speculate about what could've happened though

 

Not only is it fun but it's also ESSENCIAL to "speculate" and project.

 

How else can this dumbass franchise learn if not by examining its myriad mistakes?

 

At some point, JR and Kenny need to realize that given how tight the 3-team race is, a couple of "low-key" aquisitions and a competent, hungry manager will mean ALL the difference in the world between a truly SUCCESSFUL season (winning AND making money to help the next year's budget) and the kind of pathetic mess we witnessed in 2002-2003. It is really that simple.

 

A few smartly allocated Mill can mean EVERYTHING and usually do. That requires GM's utmost competence and the owner's generosity-- Sox failed to take advantage of 2002-2003 ALC. The "pathetic division" window of opportunity might only be open for a couple more years.

 

Mortgaging the future (both winning AND profit) for the sake of small short-term gain has been the practice of choice for this doomed franchise for ages. I hope Jerry and Sox fans both realize how easy 2004 can go to hell as 2002-2003 seasons had when both sides don't want to sacrifize just a little.

[YASNY]

Not only is it fun but it's also ESSENCIAL to "speculate" and project.

 

How else can this dumbass franchise learn if not by examining its myriad mistakes?

 

At some point, KR and Kenny need to realize that given how tight the 3-team race is, a couple of "low-key" aquisitions and a conpetent manager will mean the difference between a truly SUCCESSFUL season (winning AND making money to help the next year's budget) and the kind of pathetic mess we witnessed in 2002-2003.

 

A few smartly allocated Mill can mean EVERYTHING and usually do. That requires GM's utmost competence and the owner's generosity--  Sox failed to take advantage of 2002-2003 ALC.  The "pathetic division" window of opportunity might only be open for a couple more years.

 

Mortgaging the future (both winning AND profit) for the sake of small short-term gain has been the practice of choice for this doomed franchise for ages. I hope Jerry and Sox fans both realize how easy 2004 can go to hell as 2002-2003 seasons had when both sides don't want to sacrifize just a little.

Oh hell. Ron Schuler wouldn't pull the trigger on a mid-season deal to acquire veteran help for a pennant race if his life depended on it. Instead, he white-flag's the '97 season away. I always hated that about Schu and it's one thing I commend KW very highly for.

[BrandoFan]

Then how does Colon fit in Brando? Didn't we trade Osuna in the Colon deal. Yes I would like to have him instead of Rick White, but I believe we signed Gordon to replace Osuna. Would we have signed Gordon if we had Osuna? I belive the Colon deal should be factored in there somewhere.

Forget about Gordon, he was a "safe", cheap choice that was lucky to pan out.

 

I believe something else could have been offered in Osuna's place, a couple of prospects perhaps.

 

Osuna was making a million too much and so was Foulke. 3 extra million would have allowed us to keep them both AND get Colon. 3 stinkin' Mill.....

 

That's how winning teams with the eye on the prize operate. Bargains are nice, but worthwhile things cost just a little bit more and sometimes you gotta bite the balance sheet bullet.

 

I do not exaggerate one bit when I say Rich White and Koch f***ed up everything in 2003. JM and Paulie get their share of blame, but those two clowns absolutely KILLED us early on (against some s***ty competition, too!) as to allow a then-struggling Minnesota to hang in there, stay close......and make their move at the Break by getting Stewart and moving Santana to SR.....The division was OURS, godamnit.

 

The larger issue of Paradigm of Cheapness is not only with KW and JR, who we will agree are as cheap, but also with Sox FANS who didn't come out in 2001.....which affected the 2002 teams's chances.....which in turn screwed up the 2002 attendance.....which led to an unacceptably low 51 Mill payroll in 2003....which caused the Sox to let go of Foulke, Osuna or his replacement (Urbina?).....which killed the season.....which killed the attendance.....which led to another below-average payroll in 2004......The vicious cycle of Mediocrity and Greed continues. Opportunities are squandered. Fanbase is deteriorating. Stupidity is rinsed and repeated.

 

Neither the short-sighted Sox fans want to come out and help the team's financial well-being NOR does JR wish to deviate from his profit-making plan and show some generosity and vision.........And then BOTH sides have the audacity to wonder what the f*** went wrong and why this team hasn't won s*** in 86 years.

[BrandoFan]

Oh hell.  Ron Schuler wouldn't pull the trigger on a mid-season deal to acquire veteran help for a pennant race if his life depended on it.  Instead, he white-flag's the '97 season away.  I always hated that about Schu and it's one thing I commend KW very highly for.

I don't remember much about Shue's dealings....but I am sure they were as incompetent and short-sighted as anything KW and others have done.

 

You don't JUST not win the WS for 86 years straight. Not when a pennant got you an automatic trip to the Series for so many decades.

 

You literally have to TRY to fail. And try hard.

[southsider2k5]

Forget about Gordon, he was a "safe", cheap choice that was lucky to pan out.

Umm don't forget about the guy that singlehandedly almost saved our season Esteban Loiaza... He was a cheap choice too.

[ottawa_sox]

I don't remember much about Shue's dealings....but I am sure they were as incompetent and short-sighted as anything KW and others have done.

 

You don't JUST not win the WS for 86 years straight.  Not when a pennant got you an automatic trip to the Series for so many decades.

 

You literally have to TRY to fail. And try hard.

Reminds me of Carlton Fisk’s assessment of CHISOX corporate wishes. Try to come in second place. Coming in second hopefully brings a pennant chase with a corresponding attendance spike. Not winning helps to keep payroll down.

On the subject of spending a fraction of what the big boys spend, Einhorn says ‘It helps to have more. But I don't know that just having it guarantees you're going to win. I think that's what people need to understand.’ I don’t think we have a problem understanding that there are no guarantees. But we all understand our chances would increase. I don’t think the current ownership understands the fan’s frustration that comes with not winning for close to 100 years. These guys talk like the White Sox existence started with their arrival. It’s been 43 years since the BlackHawks won. That one BlackHawk success story, from a fan’s point of view, destroys however many second place finishes the White Sox can claim.

[Harry Chappas]

Forget about Gordon, he was a "safe", cheap choice that was lucky to pan out.

 

I believe something else could have been offered in Osuna's place, a couple of prospects perhaps. 

 

Osuna was making a million too much and so was Foulke. 3 extra million would have allowed us to keep them both AND get Colon.  3 stinkin' Mill.....

 

That's how winning teams with the eye on the prize operate.  Bargains are nice, but worthwhile things cost just a little bit more and sometimes you gotta bite the balance sheet bullet.

 

I do not exaggerate one bit when I say Rich White and Koch f***ed up everything in 2003. JM and Paulie get their share of blame, but those two clowns absolutely KILLED us early on (against some s***ty competition, too!)  as to allow a then-struggling Minnesota to hang in there, stay close......and make their move at the Break by getting Stewart and moving Santana to SR.....The division was OURS, godamnit.

 

The larger issue of Paradigm of Cheapness is not only with KW and JR, who we will agree are as cheap, but also with Sox FANS who didn't come out in 2001.....which affected the 2002 teams's chances.....which in turn screwed up the 2002 attendance.....which led to an unacceptably low 51 Mill payroll in 2003....which caused the Sox to let go of Foulke, Osuna or his replacement (Urbina?).....which killed the season.....which killed the attendance.....which led to another below-average payroll in 2004......The vicious cycle of Mediocrity and Greed continues.  Opportunities are squandered.  Fanbase is deteriorating. Stupidity is rinsed and repeated.

 

Neither the short-sighted Sox fans want to come out and help the team's financial well-being NOR  does JR wish to deviate from his profit-making plan and show some generosity and vision.........And then BOTH sides have the audacity to wonder what the f*** went wrong and why this team hasn't won s*** in 86 years.

Right.

[SoxAce]

Is it really?  I thought everything was like Major League 2 where you could kick the s*** out of each other and come back and win the division.

 

 

 

Hell yeah I do.  I'm sure Albert Belle said a naughty thing or two about the White Sox when he was on the Indians.  Next thing you know he's making naughty signs with his arms to the Cleveland fans as a member of the White Sox. 

Mientkiewicz wouldn't come in and be like "You guys are all pieces of s***, Chicago sucks ass, I hate this town, blah, blah, blah."  If he came here, it would be via free agency, and that would mean he would have to want to play in Chicago, and then if he did sign, don't you think he would maybe downplay the comments he made about Chicago and their fans?  His teammates wouldn't give a s*** about what he said in the past, because the past is something that can't be changed. Kevin Millar went behind Nomar's back and said he wanted Arod to be the Red Sox SS next year, how the hell is that going to work out?  I would bet that after either a punch or two is thrown or after an adult discussion, it would be over. They're professionals, and they get paid to do this.  Same thing has happened here too.  Ozzie called out Frank....how's our team chemistry doing, huh?

 

 

 

I thought that's why we hired Ozzie...?

 

 

 

How do I think the Twins won the division two straight years?  Well, for starters, they had a kick ass bullpen both years, and I think they'll have another this year.  They also had a good, well-balanced team, and they had, IMO, the best defense in the league in both range and gloves, bar none.  If we had Torii Hunter in CF instead of Carl Everett(or in other words, you switch those two), I can almost guarantee you we win the division.  And their INFers, while good, are somewhat overrated mainly because of that brick wall they have at 1B who is the topic of discussion right now, named Doug Mientkiewicz.  Again, I think that if you switch Dougie M and Kong, we win the division with ease.  Not only is Mientkiewicz a much better pure hitter then Kong, he is also a top 3 defensive 1Bman in the MLB(and I personally think he is the best, but there are some arguments that can be made for guys like Olerud and the like)

 

 

 

I disagree.  The Sox looked out for each other, played as a team, and had each others back(...which is different from looking out for each other in what way?).  How come the Sox weren't pouring champagne over each other at the end of September last year?

 

 

 

Tell me something....do you honestly think that the White Sox did not play as a team?  I don't think they were too concerned about individual stats(except Thomas) with the main exception of the stat on the left in the standings column(also referred to as the win column). What I thought they displayed at the end of last year was selfishness....they all wanted to hit the 5-run homer, which is impossible....that was the ONLY time I thought they tried to do too much.  Also, forgetting the White Sox, don't you think the Royals played like a team?  the Indians?  Mariners?  Angels?  Blue Jays?  Phillies?  Cardinals?  Astros?  My point is, the Twins didn't get in because they played with teamwork, because if you got in by doing that, we'd have about 28-30 teams in the playoffs each year.  They got in because they actually played up to their potential...no overacheiving, no underacheiving, just playing to their porential.  The White Sox play to their potential, they win 103 games and sweep through the playoffs and destroy Josh Beckett and the Florida Marlins in the World Series.

 

 

 

Plain and simply, we lost this past year because we had a s***ty manager who apparently knew nothing about teaching fundamentals and couldn't manage a bullpen to save his life.  The Twins had a manager in Ron Gardenhire who was the exact opposite of Jerry Manuel.

Albert Belle's case was different. He didn't say it publicly to the papers like you know who. I'll tell you what others I like you are mistaking but I have to go to class.

[baggio202]

Every time someone comments about the importance of chemistry to a baseball team, I always think of the A's of the early 70's.  No "chemistry" among that group whatsoever.  Just 3 world championships.

yeah but you are going back 30 years to find your example....since free agency became part of the game chemistry has taken on a more important role..

[BrandoFan]

Umm don't forget about the guy that singlehandedly almost saved our season Esteban Loiaza...  He was a cheap choice too.

White Sox could go (and have gone) another decade without seeing a Loaiza-esque feel-good story again.

 

Meanwhile.....their bargain-happy approach churns out SEASON-KILLERS like Ritchie, Koch, White, Rios, Daubach, Showenweiss, Parque, Clayton on annual basis.

 

There is no free (ok, league minimum) lunch. Period.

 

86 years.....

[BrandoFan]

Right.

I know.

[southsider2k5]

White Sox could go (and have gone) another decade without seeing a Loaiza-esque feel-good story again.

 

Meanwhile.....their bargain-happy approach churns out SEASON-KILLERS like Ritchie, Koch, White, Rios, Daubach, Showenweiss, Parque, Clayton on annual basis. 

 

There is no free (ok, league minimum) lunch.  Period. 

 

86 years.....

I think those kind of pick ups will become more common as teams are quicker to jettison higher priced injured players, and less likely to pay them to wait and see if they will recover or not. With the stakes being high, and so many more "small" budget teams, they will drop these guys and go with someone cheap. It has flooded the market with these kind of players, and made their contract demands nearly nothing.

 

Granted the Sox might not ever win at this again, but I think as a league wide trend you will see more and more of it.

[BrandoFan]

I think those kind of pick ups will become more common as teams are quicker to jettison higher priced injured players, and less likely to pay them to wait and see if they will recover or not.  With the stakes being high, and so many more "small" budget teams, they will drop these guys and go with someone cheap.  It has flooded the market with these kind of players, and made their contract demands nearly nothing.

 

Granted the Sox might not ever win at this again, but I think as a league wide trend you will see more and more of it.

I don't disagree with you.

 

It was possible to retain Osuna (or get Urbina in his place), Foulke AND get Colon AND still take a chance on Loaiza.

 

All it required is literally 3-4 extra Mill, a few prospects AND GM's competence.

 

But here at WS Land, we think small.

 

Management is counting pennies all the while paying lip service to "going for it".

 

Fans are jaded, b****ing about "product" oblivious to the fact that a few extra 100K in attendance in 2002, would have resulted in a higher payroll in 2003, which would have made it possible to keep Foulke and get a stud reliever to replace Osuna, etc and the team woulda surely WON the division.

 

Just as it came down to "bargains" Koch, Rios and White last year sealing our fate....given how CLOSE the division is, it will probably come down to "bargains" Shingo, Uribe and Shoenweiss this year. I am serious. It's sad.

 

86 years.....

[witesoxfan]

I know how I felt about the trade at the time it was made.  Foulke was going to walk after the end of 2003 and Kock was tied up for 3 seasons.  Financially and baseball wise it made sense.  Valentine for Cotts is not a bad deal either, and if Mark Johnson was such a valueable backup where is he today?  My reaction to losing MJ was as follows: "Yawn".

I still don't see how it makes sense financially. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the White Sox throw in some cash as well? I assume this is about $1 mill....which means we paid about $5.375 for Koch(if you count the mill we sent to Oakland) and the A's paid Foulke $6 mill....they are paying Foulke $0 this year while we are paying Koch $6 mill(with a few extra thousand in there as well). I don't understand how approximately $11.5 mill over 2 years makes sense financially over $6 mill for one year.

 

And really, it did not make sense baseball wise either. Minor leaguers and prospects are like blind dates....some work out, but most do not. Meaning the main issue is Koch for Foulke. Does Koch for Foulke make sense at all? I thought so at the time, but in reality, had I looked at the stats and not just been hypnotized by Koch's "98 MPH" fastball, I would have looked at the situation while being objectional and would have seen that Foulke is by far the better pitcher then Koch.

 

I still to do this day do not know why KW made the move.

 

BTW, had we kept MJ, we would not have seen Miguel Olivo at the major league level. Had MJ been bad enough, he would have been given his slip to go try and make it somewhere else and Olivo would have been brought up. In the end it would have cost us $500,000.

[YASNY]

I still don't see how it makes sense financially.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the White Sox throw in some cash as well?  I assume this is about $1 mill....which means we paid about $5.375 for Koch(if you count the mill we sent to Oakland) and the A's paid Foulke $6 mill....they are paying Foulke $0 this year while we are paying Koch $6 mill(with a few extra thousand in there as well).  I don't understand how approximately $11.5 mill over 2 years makes sense financially over $6 mill for one year.

 

And really, it did not make sense baseball wise either.  Minor leaguers and prospects are like blind dates....some work out, but most do not.  Meaning the main issue is Koch for Foulke.  Does Koch for Foulke make sense at all?  I thought so at the time, but in reality, had I looked at the stats and not just been hypnotized by Koch's "98 MPH" fastball, I would have looked at the situation while being objectional and would have seen that Foulke is by far the better pitcher then Koch.

 

I still to do this day do not know why KW made the move. 

 

BTW, had we kept MJ, we would not have seen Miguel Olivo at the major league level.  Had MJ been bad enough, he would have been given his slip to go try and make it somewhere else and Olivo would have been brought up.  In the end it would have cost us $500,000.

Financially it made sense because we had Koch locked up for three years without having to negotiate with someone in their free agent year.

 

Baseball wise, do you remember how Foulke always seemed to choke in the big games? You have to remember I'm looking at this from a perspective of last off season. Koch was more of a sure thing at that point in time than Keith was. And how can you discount minor leaguers. We have page after page of analysis of our prospects on this board. Cotts vs. Valentine ... I still like that part of the deal.

[DBAHO]

Financially it made sense because we had Koch locked up for three years without having to negotiate with someone in their free agent year. 

 

Baseball wise, do you remember how Foulke always seemed to choke in the big games?  You have to remember I'm looking at this from a perspective of last off season.  Koch was more of a sure thing at that point in time than Keith was.  And how can you discount minor leaguers.  We have page after page of analysis of our prospects on this board.  Cotts vs. Valentine ... I still like that part of the deal.

Well the pressure will definitely be on Foulke to perform in Boston, it wouldn't suprise me at all if he choked quite a bit down there. Pitchin in places like Boston and New York can almost ruin a guy's career if they can't handle da heat, just Jeff Weaver, Byung - Hyung Kim etc.