rafacosta Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 I forgot to mention that I would give Konerko away for FREE. Then I'd spend that 17 Mill on Maddux and be ecstatic. But that's just me. I´m with you. PK is a slow guy and wll make 8.75 millions, with this money we could bring good pitching. We have too many slow guys 1B type guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Sorry about the length. I personally hate reading very long post, and so I really hate when my post get long. I started out by mentioning a few points about the possible trade, but then Brando and I brought in Konerko's ability, Perez's ability, Wright/Pacheco, the Ritchie trade, the Sox/Dodgers financial situtation, ect. We have tied in about 10 different topics to this trade purposal, and I applogize for the length of my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 whitesox61382...sorry about missing your ackknolwedgement of the flaws in that example.. i was talking to some dodger fans and they said that perez pitched injured most of last year...which was the reason why his IP were way down...that opens up another can of worms...if he's healthy then there is even more reason to believe he will return to his '03 form...but there is a risk that pitching injured could have taken its tool on his arm and he may never reach his potential now.. of course the same can be said about PK and the problems with his hip..which i think played a major factor in his decline last year... looks like a crapshoot either way on this deal...and with recent sox history the pessimist in me says that whatever KW does, if in fact this trade is workable , will be the wrong move Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Sorry about the length. I personally hate reading very long post, and so I really hate when my post get long. You can break it up into 2 or 3 posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 I started out by mentioning a few points about the possible trade, Yes, you said that OP for PK awap is a very fair one, and that if anything else Sox will be slightly worse off. Later you amended it by saying you would do the deal in a a second.....but by that time, the "damage" was already done and long post exchanges commenced. but then Brando and I brought in Konerko's ability, Perez's ability, Wright/Pacheco, the Ritchie trade, the Sox/Dodgers financial situtation, ect. We have tied in about 10 different topics to this trade purposal Do you know why we did that? Because only lazy IDIOTS would look at Konerko-Perez without at least briefly touching upon the above subjects. Players' intristic trade value doesn't exist in a vacuum and is contingent on so many variables/considerations, that me and you but barely scratched the surface with our amateur opinions. Those who have a problem with the lenght of my posts are free to explore the vastness of my sack with their bourgeoisis tongues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Those who have a problem with the lenght of my posts are free to explore the vastness of my sack with their bourgeoisis tongues. ummm, ill have to pass on that one...go ahead and keep you posts as long as you want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Brando, I agree with your comments except for the one above. Who the hell casres if we win or lose a trade as long as we win on the field? If the trade helps the Sox do that, what Thomas does in LA would not matter one iota! Well, as long as we win and draw fans.....Maybe. Of course no amount of warm sake is gonna convince me of your hypothetical scenario ever taking place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 . I took the actual average OPS in the AL last year and it fell in the .745-.755 range. I do not agree with using part-time scrubs. Sorry. 800 OPS is my every-day player benchmark and ESPN tends to agree. When I see Jim Thome, Frank, Sexson, Palmeiro, Edgar, Sweeney, Giambi, Bagwell, etc toying with 950-1000+ OPS year in and out, it puts things in perspective. So even by far the strongest part of Paulie's game, his OPS, is not nearly as impressive in the proper context. Then again, who is to say he even breaks the 800 this year? He looked so lost and angry last year, he may burn himself out tryng to compensate this year again and overswinging = hitter's death. You keep pointing out Konerko's flaws and I can't understand why. To prove to you how overrated a player Mr. All-Star is, how overpaid he is and how much unnecessary risk comes with his territory. Why does it matter? Because Sox are over budget and have a TON of holes to fill. Konerko's presence HURTS the team. Badly. Dodgers know it. Not that they give a s*** about Konerko anyway. Listen to all the rumors you want, Konerko for Perez is not gonna happen. IMO. I am sorry, but do you have a link to support this? Last time I counted, they had 85 Mill committed to current contracts WITH Perez. Their payroll has been increasing annually and they are making a profit still. The new ownership wants to impress. I wouldn't be suprised if they top a 120 Mill limit, but 115 Mill is virtually guaranteed. Furthermore, if they are smart (and lucky), they might just get rid of an albatoss contract or two. Will you quit comparing the O's to the Dodgers? No, I won't. Both teams had no offense. One of them got offense in a hurry. LA has at least as much spending room as O's did prior to FA signings. Plus the STUD prospects, worst comes the worst. Do you have any link to Dodgers not wanting to ever give up either Jackson, Miller, under any circumstances? I mean, I could see how they would be reluctant when it comes to overpaid Magglio, ut there are 28 other teams in MLB.... Again......they'll get Randal "Clutch" Simon to hit against righties. They'll get some other dirt cheap RH to hit against lefties. No hassle. No extra risk. No 17 Mill over 2 seasons obligation. Lots of money to spend on other line-up needs. Talented Odalis Perez stays. . IF the Dodgers have so many option, than why are they talking with the Sox again after the incident earlier this offseason between KW and Evans? Maybe they want Maggs for Perez and a prospect. Or Thomas for Perez straight up. Konerko they could care less about. Trust me. They are not THAT stupid and desperate (as previously discussed). Nor is Perez as expendable as you're making him out to be if they don;t get Madduz. Dodgers LIKE him, they love his stuff and poise even after a disappointing 2003 even if they are not wild about his attitude. They do not trust either Dreifort or Alvarez to do s*** in 2004. And Jackson is a rookie who can struggle big time in his first year as you very well know. That leaves Isiii and Nomo.....and the former has a 1.60 career WHIP! Yikes. The Tribe have one of the top minor league systems in baseball, and a majority of their young hitters will get better with time. They will be no worse then last year, . Oooh, a 37-yo Vizquel, how scary. And just because they are a year older, doesn't make them better. Gerut and Bradley are below average by #3-4 slugger standards and everything else? Garbage. They will miss the hell out of Burks and he was washed-up! Expect them to be in the BOTTOM 2 in AL next year. Bad, bad, bad. I love how you have the ability to predict the future. I think it is fair to say that the decrease from Mauer to Pierzynski will be negated by the increase from Stewart over Kielty/Mohr. The Twins will probably have a similar offense, and they always find a way to score more runs then their talent would suggest. The Twins will still have an average offense next year whether you want to admit it or not. Average offense.....if Baltimore, Anaheim and Sox don't step up that is. And at least 2 of them should. That means, only Oakland, Tampa, Detroit and Cleveland will be worse than Minnesota. Mediocre is what they are and what they will be. At last we agree. My arguement is that I would rather give up a marginal position player prospects like a Yan instead of a Pacheco AND Wright. Get real, Yan is a nobody and his name is Nothing. You can throw in 10 Yans and Dodgers will shrug their shoulders. If they don't want to do Perez for Konerko (and they don't), what makes you say Yan will be the deal-breaker? The guy isn't even in the top 20 Sox prospect, for crying outloud. NOBODY cares about Wright other than you and me AND 25yo Pacheco couldn't even cut it with the friggin' ROCKIES!!! Think about that for a second. Thinking he will help us this season is a big friggin' stretch. My point is that it is too early to give up on Wright. Give him a chance as a reliever and you might be surprised. I would LOVE to give him a chance. BUT, there is the rub: 1. Everyrone around baseball knows how much we need this division and how many holes we still have. That makes all the difference in the world when it comes to negotiation process. 2. Nobody wants PK but possibly the Dodgers, our only hope. 3. Too bad the Dodgers do not want Perez for Konerko straight up. 4. Also falling under "too bad": Dodgers (likely) could care less about your and my high hopes for Wright and Pacheco, and instead see them for what they really are: mildly talented busts with good fastballs who are dime a dozen in every organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Whitesox61382, pretend you're a Dodgers GM. You have a 115 Mill payroll ceiling. What do YOU do in this situation to give your team the BEST chance at upsetting the Giants? Humor me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastime Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 What do YOU do in this situation to give your team the BEST chance at upsetting the Giants? I trade for Paul Konerko this very minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Whitesox61382, pretend you're a Dodgers GM. You have a 115 Mill payroll ceiling. What do YOU do in this situation to give your team the BEST chance at upsetting the Giants? Humor me. If I was the Dodgers GM, than I would stand pat and live with another .500 season(sign TLee to play 1B), and build this team for the future(I am not sure if Evans has that luxery though). I don't mind trading prospects since they are unproven potential, and the only thing that matters in the majors is production at the major league level. However, I don't think I would trade pitching prospects of Miller or Jackson calibur, especially if it doesn't guarantee me a division title. If we(speaking from the Dodgers GM perspective) could get Maddux signed, than I would think about trading someone like Perez and prospects(not named Jackson or Miller) for an instant impact bat. I wouldn't really want Konerko, but what other options do I have this late in the offseason. This is why I would stand pat unless there was an offer that I couldn't refuse. The point is that Evans(if he is still the GM) probably doesn't have the luxery to stand pat and live with another .500 season while building for the future. He is on thin ice right now, and with a payroll approaching 100M I doubt that the new ownership will be happy with another .500 season even if it is better for the organization in the long run. This is why I think the Dodgers have a little desperation on their behalf to get a difference making bat, which doesn't exist on the current FA market, so they are going to have to trade for one. Konerko wouldn't be the first choice, but this late in the season there aren't many other options, especially if they aren't willing to part with either Miller or Jackson. This is my opinion on the Dodgers current situation, and why I don't think they have the upper hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 The point is that Evans(if he is still the GM) probably doesn't have the luxery to stand pat and live with another .500 season while building for the future. He is on thin ice right now, and with a payroll approaching 100M I doubt that the new ownership will be happy with another .500 season even if it is better for the organization in the long run. This is why I think the Dodgers have a little desperation on their behalf to get a difference making bat, which doesn't exist on the current FA market, so they are going to have to trade for one. Konerko wouldn't be the first choice, but this late in the season there aren't many other options, especially if they aren't willing to part with either Miller or Jackson. This is my opinion on the Dodgers current situation, and why I don't think they have the upper hand. Let's hope you're right. We could really use the 12 Million to be saved on the Konerko-Perez deal. Who knows, perhaps the ever-so-generous JR would be willing to invest some of it in Greg Maddux or some such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Whitesox61382, pretend you're a Dodgers GM. You have a 115 Mill payroll ceiling. What do YOU do in this situation to give your team the BEST chance at upsetting the Giants? Humor me. I'm not him.. but doesn't it make you guys excited like me.. just thinking about having a 115 million dollar payroll?! Just think of who could be on the team... 5 quality SPs, a good leadoff hitter.. gold glove middle infielders... sigh :banghead ... ok back to reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 We could really use the 12 Million to be saved on the Konerko-Perez deal. How do you figure saving $12 million? Do you just plan to non-tender Perez in 2005? He will be arbitration eligible one more year and will make at least $6 million or so, if not more. So the net savings would only be $6 million or less. That's still a nice savings, but no windfall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 If I was the Dodgers GM, than I would stand pat and live with another .500 season). You mean to tell me you'd sacrifize the entire season with a 115 Mill payroll team instead of trying to come up with a smart trade and, use the remaining 25 Mill and some non-Miller/Jackson prospects to fill a few line-up holes.....praying that Barry Bonds starts showing his age and/or Schmidt has arm problems again? Honestly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 You mean to tell me you'd sacrifize the entire season with a 115 Mill payroll team instead of trying to come up with a smart trade and, use the remaining 25 Mill and some non-Miller/Jackson prospects to fill a few line-up holes.....praying that Barry Bonds starts showing his age and/or Schmidt has arm problems again? Honestly? Yes, sometimes the best option is to stand pat and build from within when you have a strong minor league system. The fact is that you are overestimating the options that the Dodgers have, especially if they are unwilling to part with either Jackson or Miller. There are no Guerreros, Tejadas, IRods, Sheffields, ect left on the market, so I would spend about 2-3M to bring in Travis Lee to play 1B, a stopgap until top prospect Loney is ready in about 2 years or so, and hope that improvements from within and a strong pitching staff will be enough. Next year is when I would start spending. I would use the money that I don't waste this offseason to bring in Beltran to play CF and Nomar to play SS. Adding those two with Lo Duca at C, TLee at 1B, Izturis/Cora/Thurston/ect at 2B, Beltre at 3B, Encarnacion in LF, and Green in RF should provide enough offense for one of the strongest staffs in baseball(hopefully Jackson and Miller are both ready). Thats what I would do if I was the GM of the Dodgers and had time/money to build a contender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Just how strong do you anticipate Padres, Backs and Giants being in 2004? Bonds is gonna turn 40, fer crying outloud. Schmidt's arm might not be so durable. Rob Nen... I do like the idea of getting Lee for a couple of Mill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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