Seattle Times stoking the flames...

[YASNY]

I wouldn't consider what KW said at SoxFest to be carved in stone. he may have no deals in the works or have no plans to trade Maggs or Lee, but he should always listen to any other teams offer. If he gets an offer that he feels will improve the team and can make it work financially, then I'm sure he;d pull the trigger, regardless of what was said at SoxFest.

[Capn12]

That deal makes too much since for us to consider passing up if it actually were presented to KW....therefore, I know it won't happen!!!

 

Seattle would be downright braindead to make that move, I'm sorry....but hey, we've seen some GMs *cough* make dumb moves like that before, so who knows.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It's just to good to be true. I don't even believe it. Even if I knew we could keep Maggs I still might do that trade. Garcia had an off year last year. But look at his win total the prior 3 years. Plus he's only 27. I don't even have to mention how cold Soriano is...Add the fact that he's 24 and will only get better. Then you have Winn who is one of the most UNDERRATED players in the gm to somewhat fill the void left by Maggs. An unbeliveble trade for us. Now let me wake my ass up...

[FUCKREINSDORF]

I'd hate to get rid of Magglio,but if you're absolutely,positively,beyond the shadow of a doubt certain he won't re-sign,make the deal.Just make sure Garcia,Soriano and Winn stick around for at least 3 years.But,knowing KW and that asshole Reinsdork,there's no way this trade is made.Nice pipe dream by the Mariners,though.

[BrandoFan]

We're talking about a potential hall of fame player here

 

Maggs is not a HOF'er. Standards will be raised for Juice Era (last 10 years) sluggers.

 

I'd do it for Piniero, Soriano, and Winn, and a top prospect to be named later

 

Not enough. M's must also include the key from that room where they keep the money.

[1549]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Winn wouldn't necessarily play centerfield.

 

Winn doesn't have that kind of arm. I wouldn't be surprised if Winn went to right and someone else (Reed, Rowand, Borchard, Harris, whoever wins that struggle) plays center.

[whitesox61382]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Winn wouldn't necessarily play centerfield. 

 

Winn doesn't have that kind of arm.  I wouldn't be surprised if Winn went to right and someone else (Reed, Rowand, Borchard, Harris, whoever wins that struggle) plays center.

Why would you put Winn in right if he has a weak arm? You want your strongest outfield arm in right because the majority of the throws are to 2B, 3B, and home. Winn is much better suited for CF with his arm. A strong arm is down on the list of things needed to play CF. Winn would play CF if the Sox traded for him, with Rowand moving to his natural position of RF(where his above average arm is used to full abilitiy).

[SuperSteve]

Why would you put Winn in right if he has a weak arm? You want your strongest outfield arm in right because the majority of the throws are to 2B, 3B, and home. Winn is much better suited for CF with his arm. A strong arm is down on the list of things needed to play CF. Winn would play CF if the Sox traded for him, with Rowand moving to his natural position of RF(where his above average arm is used to full abilitiy).

I do agree.

[BrandoFan]

Why would you put Winn in right if he has a weak arm? You want your strongest outfield arm in right because the majority of the throws are to 2B, 3B, and home. Winn is much better suited for CF with his arm. A strong arm is down on the list of things needed to play CF. Winn would play CF if the Sox traded for him, with Rowand moving to his natural position of RF(where his above average arm is used to full abilitiy).

Winn is a Gold Glover-caliber LF.

 

As a CF, he is about average, not much improvement over Rowand if any.

 

Meanwhile, Aaron cannot produce enough to be a RF.

 

And Winn isn't exactly cheap, making more than 10 times what AR does..

 

I say....give us Pineiro and Soriano and M's can have Maggs and a couple of prospects.

[RudyLawRules]

Another nugget from another Seattle paper today...

 

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/159757_mari07.html

 

Suggests Ms hang tight and wait until July if there in the chase. They mention Maggs as a rent-a-player if Sox are out of it.

[Pastime]

Winn doesn't have that kind of arm.

 

Did you ever watch Lance "One Dog" Johnson play? It wasn't important when he was patrolling CF.

[whitesox61382]

Winn is a Gold Glover-caliber LF.

 

As a CF, he is about average, not much improvement over Rowand if any.

 

Meanwhile, Aaron cannot produce enough to be a RF.

 

And Winn isn't exactly cheap, making more than 10 times what AR does.. 

 

I say....give us Pineiro and Soriano and M's can have Maggs and a couple of prospects.

So what if Rowand doesn't produce the typical type of power you expect from a corner outfielder. For years the Sox have filled their lineup with one-dimensional power hitters at almost every position, and look where it has gotten them. If the Sox trade Maggs, get Winn as part of the deal, and move Rowand to RF, than they will still have 5 guys who could easily hit 20+ HR's(Thomas, Konerko, Valentin, Crede, Lee) and 2 guys that will probably give you double digit HR's(Rowand, Winn). Is that not enough power in the lineup? Furthermore, Winn provides the Sox with a top calibur leadoff hitter, which is harder to find than a power hitting middle of the order hitter IMO. Not only that, but he improves the team D(Winn-CF/Rowand-RF over Rowand-CF/Maggs-RF) and gives them more team speed(Winn is a 20+ SB threat). These are aspects that could be improved. Winn is definately a downgrade offensively when compared to Maggs, but he is an underrated player IMO. Furthermore, the Sox get a solid middle of the rotation starter and one of the top pitching prospects in baseball who is ready to contribute at the major league level. Not only does this trade improve the Sox now, but also in the future.

[BrandoFan]

So what if Rowand doesn't produce the typical type of power you expect from a corner outfielder. For years the Sox have filled their lineup with one-dimensional power hitters at almost every position, and look where it has gotten them. If the Sox trade Maggs, get Winn as part of the deal, and move Rowand to RF, than they will still have 5 guys who could easily hit 20+ HR's(Thomas, Konerko, Valentin, Crede, Lee) and 2 guys that will probably give you double digit HR's(Rowand, Winn). Is that not enough power in the lineup? Furthermore, Winn provides the Sox with a top calibur leadoff hitter, which is harder to find than a power hitting middle of the order hitter IMO. Not only that, but he improves the team D(Winn-CF/Rowand-RF over Rowand-CF/Maggs-RF) and gives them more team speed(Winn is a 20+ SB threat). These are aspects that could be improved. Winn is definately a downgrade offensively when compared to Maggs, but he is an underrated player IMO. Furthermore, the Sox get a solid middle of the rotation starter and one of the top pitching prospects in baseball who is ready to contribute at the major league level. Not only does this trade improve the Sox now, but also in the future

 

I'll be first to point out that Magglio's D has declined somewhat, but I honestly do not think Rowand would be that much of an imrovement-- he is not the second coming of Ichiro. Nor is he likely to outrun Magglio on the basepaths even if he is above average. Neither Maggs is one-dimentional, nor is Aaron a Gold Glover.

 

Winn is a career 750 OPS player, with an unspecacular .340 OBP. As a CF'er, he's average IMO. He is not in Beltran, Edmonds, Griffey, Jones, Hunter, Cameron, Wells or even Baldelli's league. He's making more than 10 TIMES what Aaron is and is 4+ years older. 20 SB guy? True, but both Maggs and Rowand are capable of swiping 15 and have a solid speedf overall.

 

Winn for Magglio nets you 10 Mill, right? Now you lose a mill or two because Maggs fans will be PISSED and casual fans will wonder why Maggs was lost and Garciappara-type name was not gained; both will affect attendance and ratings if only slightly. So roughly, you save 8 Mill and lose 150-200 points worth of OPS.

 

But then you have Garcia and his 7 Mill conract and Soriano. I love the latter, our BP would be set. But the former? Fat, lazy, stupid drugie who might have a 3.50 ERA as easily as a 5.00+ one away from Safeco.

 

I dunno, I see how Sox can win on the trade, but I also see how it might backfire if Winn and Fat Freddy don't have stellar seasons.

 

Is there any way we can substitute a younger, cheaper Pineiro for Garcia?

[whitesox61382]

I'll be first to point out that Magglio's D has declined somewhat, but I honestly do not think Rowand would be that much of an imrovement--  he is not the second coming of Ichiro. Nor is he likely to outrun Magglio on the basepaths even if he is above average. Neither Maggs is one-dimentional, nor is Aaron a Gold Glover.

 

Winn is a career 750 OPS player, with an unspecacular .340 OBP.  As a CF'er, he's average IMO.    He is not in Beltran, Edmonds, Griffey, Jones, Hunter, Cameron, Wells or even Baldelli's league.      He's making more than 10 TIMES what Aaron is and is 4+ years older. 20 SB guy?  True, but both Maggs and Rowand are capable of swiping 15 and have a solid speedf overall. 

 

Winn for Magglio nets you 10 Mill, right?    Now you lose a mill or two because Maggs fans will be PISSED and casual fans will wonder why Maggs was lost and Garciappara-type name was not gained; both will affect attendance and ratings if only slightly. So roughly, you save 8 Mill and lose 150 points worth of OPS.

 

But then you have Garcia and his 7 Mill conract and Soriano. I love the latter, our BP would be set.  But the former?  Fat, lazy, stupid drugie who might have a 3.50 ERA as easily as a 5.00+ one away from Safeco. 

 

I dunno, I see how Sox can win on the trade, but I also see how it might backfire if Winn and Fat Freddy don't have stellar seasons.

 

Is there any way we can substitute a younger, cheaper Pineiro for Garcia?

Maggs faster then Rowand??? Are you serious??? Apparently you didn't read the Rowand article in which it mentioned that his 60 yard time(I believe) was well above league average. Rowand actually has pretty good speed. Maggs on the otherhand is a good baserunner that gets away with average speed. There is no way that Maggs is faster then Rowand.

 

Rowand would be a pretty drastic improvement over Maggs. Maggs has below average range and the only thing that saves him are those little mini sliding catches that he makes. Rowand has above average range and has shown that he can even play CF. Furthermore, Maggs arm is average, but it is very accurate(which is just as important). Rowand has an outfield arm that scouts drool over. Rowand in RF over Maggs is a pretty drastic defensive improvement, and yes Rowand might actually be a GG calibur RF, especailly if Ichiro moves to CF(with Winn traded).

 

Brando, I like how you use stats that help your agruement instead of stats that more accurately portray the type of hitter that Winn is now(selective use of stats means you are reaching buddy). The fact is that the last 2 year he has been a very productive player, and it gives a much better indication of things to come then his career averages. The last 2 years he has posted the following numbers:

 

.295+ BA 85+ runs 35+ 2B 10+ HR 75+ RBI 20+ SB .345+ OBP .425+ SLG .770+ OPS

 

Keep in mind that he has also produced those numbers in two pitchers parks(Tampa Bay and Seattle). I don't know about you, but thats some pretty solid production out of your CF. More importantly he is ideal for the leadoff spot. He hits for a high average, he has some pop, he has above average speed, and he gets on base at a realitively high rate.

 

Why do you keep bringing up the fact that he makes 10x what Rowand makes since it has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Brando sometimes you mention the most random things. The trade is Maggs for Garcia, Soriano, and Winn. How much Rowand makes, especially in comparison to Winn is completely irrelavant. I like how you use rhetoric to make it sound worse. 10x more sounds much worse then simple saying that he makes 3M, which isn't bad at all. If you are going to compare salaries, than you should say that Winn makes almost 1/5th of what Maggs makes. Is Maggs production 5x better then Winns?

 

Actually it nets you about 11M(not including Garcia and Soriano who make about 7M combined) and gives you someone who will be around for a couple more years. The fact is that if the Sox keep Maggs to the end of the year they will likely get nothing for him(very unlikely to offer him arbitration and get draft picks) and probably won't resign him with his recent contract demands. The Sox would have Winn and Soriano to show for Maggs after this season, which is MUCH better then nothing. They can free themselves of Garcia if they want, or they can offer him a long term contract if he returns to previous form(for less then it would take to resign Maggs).

 

I love how you make up random speculation. The Sox will lose 1M because fans will be pissed about losing Maggs. Well what about the fact that this trade makes the Sox a better team and that they will have a better shot of winning the division. Wouldn't winning the division and making the playoffs more then negate the lose of fans because of Maggs being traded. Casual fans like to see winning, and this trade will make the Sox better now and in the future, so I think your random speculation is a little off.

 

I also love how you downplay the possible increase in ERA that Perez might have when moved from Chevez(by far the best pitchers park in baseball), but the 1st thing you bring up is the possible increase in ERA that Garcia would have if moved from Safeco. Once again it is the selective use of stats that makes it hard to hold a conversation with you. One instance you neglect a stat because it hurts your arguement only to turn around and use the exact same stat to try and prove a point in the next arguement. Pick a side and stick to it, and don't use stats selectively because it only weakens your arguement. With that said, the major difference between Perez and Garcia, is that Garcia's numbers are pretty similar away and home(3 year average - 3.76 home ERA versus 4.14 away ERA), which suggested that moving to a better hitters park won't have much of an effect. Perez on the other hand posted a troubling difference(03' 2.73 home ERA versus 5.59 away ERA). Even in his great year in 2002 he posted a difference(2.75 home ERA versus 3.31 away ERA). So I ask, how can you downplay Perez leaving a great pitchers park, but it is the first thing you bring up for Garcia? If that isn't selective use of stats and a clear case of bias, than I don't know what is.

[BrandoFan]

Maggs faster then Rowand??? Are you serious??? Apparently you didn't read the Rowand article in which it mentioned that his 60 yard time(I believe) was well above league average. Rowand actually has pretty good speed. Maggs on the otherhand is a good baserunner that gets away with average speed. There is no way that Maggs is faster then Rowand.

 

Rowand would be a pretty drastic improvement over Maggs. Maggs has below average range and the only thing that saves him are those little mini sliding catches that he makes. Rowand has above average range and has shown that he can even play CF. Furthermore, Maggs arm is average, but it is very accurate(which is just as important). Rowand has an outfield arm that scouts drool over. Rowand in RF over Maggs is a pretty drastic defensive improvement, and yes Rowand might actually be a GG calibur RF, especailly if Ichiro moves to CF(with Winn traded).

 

Brando, I like how you use stats that help your agruement instead of stats that more accurately portray the type of hitter that Winn is now(selective use of stats means you are reaching buddy). The fact is that the last 2 year he has been a very productive player, and it gives a much better indication of things to come then his career averages. The last 2 years he has posted the following numbers:

 

.295+ BA 85+ runs 35+ 2B 10+ HR 75+ RBI 20+ SB .345+ OBP .425+ SLG .770+ OPS

 

Keep in mind that he has also produced those numbers in two pitchers parks(Tampa Bay and Seattle). I don't know about you, but thats some pretty solid production out of your CF. More importantly he is ideal for the leadoff spot. He hits for a high average, he has some pop, he has above average speed, and he gets on base at a realitively high rate.

 

Why do you keep bringing up the fact that he makes 10x what Rowand makes since it has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Brando sometimes you mention the most random things. The trade is Maggs for Garcia, Soriano, and Winn. How much Rowand makes, especially in comparison to Winn is completely irrelavant. I like how you use rhetoric to make it sound worse. 10x more sounds much worse then simple saying that he makes 3M, which isn't bad at all. If you are going to compare salaries, than you should say that Winn makes almost 1/5th of what Maggs makes. Is Maggs production 5x better then Winns?

 

Actually it nets you about 11M(not including Garcia and Soriano who make about 7M combined) and gives you someone who will be around for a couple more years. The fact is that if the Sox keep Maggs to the end of the year they will likely get nothing for him(very unlikely to offer him arbitration and get draft picks) and probably won't resign him with his recent contract demands. The Sox would have Winn and Soriano to show for Maggs after this season, which is MUCH better then nothing. They can free themselves of Garcia if they want, or they can offer him a long term contract if he returns to previous form(for less then it would take to resign Maggs).

 

I love how you make up random speculation. The Sox will lose 1M because fans will be pissed about losing Maggs. Well what about the fact that this trade makes the Sox a better team and that they will have a better shot of winning the division. Wouldn't winning the division and making the playoffs more then negate the lose of fans because of Maggs being traded. Casual fans like to see winning, and this trade will make the Sox better now and in the future, so I think your random speculation is a little off.

 

I also love how you downplay the possible increase in ERA that Perez might have when moved from Chevez(by far the best pitchers park in baseball), but the 1st thing you bring up is the possible increase in ERA that Garcia would have if moved from Safeco. Once again it is the selective use of stats that makes it hard to hold a conversation with you. One instance you neglect a stat because it hurts your arguement only to turn around and use the exact same stat to try and prove a point in the next arguement. Pick a side and stick to it, and don't use stats selectively because it only weakens your arguement. With that said, the major difference between Perez and Garcia, is that Garcia's numbers are pretty similar away and home(3 year average - 3.76 home ERA versus 4.14 away ERA), which suggested that moving to a better hitters park won't have much of an effect. Perez on the other hand posted a troubling difference(03' 2.73 home ERA versus 5.59 away ERA). Even in his great year in 2002 he posted a difference(2.75 home ERA versus 3.31 away ERA). So I ask, how can you downplay Perez leaving a great pitchers park, but it is the first thing you bring up for Garcia? If that isn't selective use of stats and a clear case of bias, than I don't know what is.

I didn't say Maggs was faster. Hello! You implied that he is was one of Sox' famed one-dimensional players and I mentioned the fact that Rowand is a marginal upgrade over him both defensively and baserunning-wise at best. He

may be faster, but Maggs has the instincts and experience. Jose Valentin is good baserunner with a very average speed and so is Magglio.

 

Forgive me for speculating on such things as season ticket cancellations and people putting their feet through TVs when they hear Maggs was traded for 3 players they might not have heard much about, something that will only be pounced on my Mariotti, North, etc. This arguement was but a sidenote to my questioning just how much money we win in the trade, but it still stands.

 

If Winn and Garcia get off to a good start, then it might be moot as the team will start winning. If they are what they have been in the last 2 years, then you goddamn right you'll lose a few Mill when all the revenue streams are tallied up.

 

Perez? Cheaper, younger than Garcia. Not as out of shape and lazy, though he does have an attitude on him. It's my belief he will have a better year in 2004 than Freddy. Call it a hunch.

 

And Magglio is a much better player than Konerko, is only signed through this season and is much more popular. It matters because while Perez may not be better or have a higher than Garcia per se, the albatross of a contract (Kong's 17 Mill) hat we're exchanging matters very much.

 

Since I consider Winn to be an average LF and only above average CF overall (oooh, he's had a 770 OPS and 345 OBP over the last 2 seasons...how f***in' scary!!!), Garcia makes or breaks the trade. Plain and simple.

 

The 3.5 Mill or whatever we save on the deal could be "given back" (and then some) in absent revenues if the team doesn't get off to a good start.

 

And notice how I didn't say I hate the trade- just that I'd rather have Pineiro.

 

PS I am touched and flattered by your apparent love for me. I am taken.

[baggio202]

Perez?  Cheaper, younger than Garcia.  Not as out of shape and lazy, though he does have an attitude on him.  It's my belief he will have a better year in 2004 than Freddy. Call it a hunch.   

I talked to twop dodger fans on the MLB boards and both said the problems with perez were way overblown....they said he get in trouble with the press because he tends to give honest responses instead the generic "crash davis" one liners..

 

an example they gave was in one interview he was asked aboyt the offense and he said they needed to start producing more (at the time they were dead last in the NL in runs scored)..paul loduca answered that response in the paper the next day and it had the LA papers treating perez like he was gary sheffield..

 

this one guy said he was at a game and was sitting right by the bullpen...a few of the yelled out to the dodgers players and they would just wave back..but perez, who of course wanst scheduled that day walked over and started talking to this guy and a few around there...he said he chatted with him for about 2 or 3 innings..talked about pitching, setting up hitters and stuff like that..

 

both guys said perez has a temper..when he pitches bad he will knock over a water cooler and throw some bats ect...evidently the guy hates to lose..

 

after hearing what these fans said i feel a lot more confident if we traded konerko for perez (with whatever the rest of the trade was)

 

so i guess frank thomas and chicago arnt the only players/towns with perception problems

[whitesox61382]

I didn't say Maggs was faster.  Hello!    You implied that he is was one of Sox' famed one-dimensional players and I mentioned the fact that Rowand is a marginal upgrade over him both defensively and baserunning-wise at best.  He

may be faster, but Maggs has the instincts and experience.  Jose Valentin is good baserunner with a very average speed and so is Magglio. 

 

Forgive me for speculating on such things as season ticket cancellations and people putting their feet through TVs when they hear Maggs was traded for 3 players they might not have heard much about, something that will only be pounced on my Mariotti, North, etc.    This arguement was but a sidenote to my questioning just how much money we win in the trade, but it still stands.

 

If Winn and Garcia get off to a good start, then it might be moot as the team will start winning.  If they are what they have been in the last 2 years, then you goddamn right you'll lose a few Mill when all the revenue streams are tallied up. 

 

Perez?  Cheaper, younger than Garcia.  Not as out of shape and lazy, though he does have an attitude on him.  It's my belief he will have a better year in 2004 than Freddy. Call it a hunch. 

 

And Magglio is a much better player than Konerko, is only signed through this season and is much more popular.  It matters because while Perez may not be better or have a higher than Garcia per se, the albatross of a contract (Kong's 17 Mill) hat we're exchanging matters very much.

 

Since I consider Winn to be an average LF and only above average CF overall (oooh, he's had a 770 OPS and 345 OBP over the last 2 seasons...how f***in' scary!!!), Garcia makes or breaks the trade.  Plain and simple.   

 

The 3.5 Mill or whatever we save on the deal could be "given back" (and then some) in absent revenues if the team doesn't get off to a good start.   

 

And notice how I didn't say I hate the trade-  just that I'd rather have Pineiro. 

 

PS I am touched and flattered by your apparent love for me. I am taken.

I didn't say that Maggs was a one-dimensional player. Hello! You put words in my mouth in order to make an arguement against me. I said, in general, that this team has been filled with one-dimensional power hitters, so adding a player like Winn that doesn't hit for much power, but does other things well would be a nice change.

 

You know that you have reached an alltime low and are really grasping at straws when you use Mariotti to defend/support your arguement.

 

If they play like they have the last two years, than the Sox will most likely be the favorites to win the Central. Winn has been very good the past couple of years and is an instant improvement at the top of the order(unless you think sub-.300 OBP Willie Harris is a better option). Even if Garcia doesn't return to previous form, a 4.50 ERA from your 3rd/4th starter isn't that bad, unless you think Schoeneweis and his 5.25 ERA(his average ERA as a starter) would be a better option. Not to mention that you have a phone book worth of options for the 5th starter spot and the final 2 spots in the pen, which should help improve those situtations, especially if Soriano duplicates his previous sucess(as either a 5th starter or set up guy). The pitching staff would be drasticly improved with this trade, and would outweigh the offensive downgrade. This team would be better with this trade and improve their chances of winning. In the end the casual fan cares more about winning then individual players.

 

Perez is 1.8M cheaper and 1 year younger, so don't hide behind those things and pretend that it makes a huge difference. I realize that you are running out of things to support your arguement(as evidence by the Mariotti statement), but you are really spliting hairs in this example. I think Garcia will be better. Call it a hunch.

 

You are clearly underestimating Winn and thats fine. I will agree that how Garcia performs will determine how good this trade would be.

 

Come on. You say that the 3.5M could be given back with a bad start, but the same can be said if the current team gets off to a bad start. The difference is that the team after the trade would have a little more talent and would be a little less likely to get off to a bad start.

 

PS The feeling must be mutual because you keep responding to me and calling me out. I am also flattered, but I am taken. Sorry

[BrandoFan]

You know that you have reached an alltime low and are really grasping at straws when you use Mariotti to defend/support your arguement.

 

 

You slay me so.

 

It's hilarious the way you're trying to portray me, after all the qualifiers I provided, as opposing this trade that's not gonna happen....just because I see its downside. Of course I mention Mariotti, North, etc as a side-note.

 

These guys know how to push buttons and use the "Sox can't even lock up a potential HOF'er superstar" tired garbage just the right way to stir and provoke........So if this trade fails (read: 7 Mill a year Garcia not keeping his ERA under 4.50) and Sox invariably tank, further frustrating the piss out of already deteriorated fanbase, Cubune and Score folk will ridicule and lie about this team wholesale like you wouldn't believe. I don't know why you flipped out about his. I am just stating facts here. I actually live in Chicago, you know and have a finger on the pulse on our greater fandom. People are already pissed and anxious beyond belief-- and its only Feb.

 

So how about asking for Pineiro first...think we'll get him, partna?

 

Or we could just take Soriano, say no thanks on Winn and Freddy, and spend the 14 Mill on other needs.