BrandoFan Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Perez is not a PP. If I gave the impression that he brought real heat, I shouldn't have. He is your basic low-90s-occasionally-touching-94 pitcher. Unlike TR, his strenght is movement, change-up, breaking ball, being LHP with a somewhat unusual release slot, his poise. And a pretty high ceiling. The only reason this comparison was made was because our friend commented on how similar the two trades looked. Whoa, I thought baggio was replying to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 you're comparision of ritchie and perez is imo just flat out wrong...im not sure where you got your info on what perez throws but he is not just a power pitcher...ive seen him pitch a lot and he has a good change and he takes alot of his curve ball....todd ritchie would be the last guy id compare him too... perez k numbers are better and his walk totals are lower that ritchie's.. a successful pitcher that todd ritchie reminds me of would be rick sutcliffe...sutlcliffe had much better command of his pitches..and wasone tough sob that willed his way through games... Baggio, one again you missed the entire point that I was trying to make. I wasn't suggesting that Ritchie and Perez had similar stuff. I simple pointed out that they both had decent stuff. The similarities that I was trying to make are in regard to their numbers mostly. For example, here are Ritchie's numbers before being traded to the Sox and Perez's numbers from last year. Ritchie(01') 4.47 ERA 5.38 K/9 2.40 K/BB .259 BA .715 OPS 1.30 WHIP 1.00 HR/9 Perez(03') 4.52 ERA 6.85 K/9 3.07 K/BB .267 BA .753 OPS 1.28 WHIP 1.36 HR/9 Perez averaged more SO, and had a better K/BB ratio, but Ritchie had a lower OPP BA, lower OPS againgst, and gave up fewer HR/9. The point is that their overall numbers were very similar. Furthermore, both pitched in a good pitchers park, and a move to Commisky would mean a better hitters park. Both had to move from the NL to the AL. When the Ritchie trade occured everyone said that he would take advantage of a weak offensive AL Central(similar to Perez). Everyone said that Ritcher would have the advantage moving to the AL since most of the players hadn't seen him pitch(similar to Perez). Both had 1 very good year, and suspect numbers besides the good year. I can keep going with the similarities, but I think you get the point. I am not suggesting that Perez will suffer the same fate as Ritchie, but you definately have to take into to consideration, and make sure that you don't give up that much for a player that could pull a Ritchie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Baggio, one again you missed the entire point that I was trying to make. I wasn't suggesting that Ritchie and Perez had similar stuff. I simple pointed out that they both had decent stuff. The similarities that I was trying to make are in regard to their numbers mostly. For example, here are Ritchie's numbers before being traded to the Sox and Perez's numbers from last year. Ritchie(01') 4.47 ERA 5.38 K/9 2.40 K/BB .259 BA .715 OPS 1.30 WHIP 1.00 HR/9 Perez(03') 4.52 ERA 6.85 K/9 3.07 K/BB .267 BA .753 OPS 1.28 WHIP 1.36 HR/9 Perez averaged more SO, and had a better K/BB ratio, but Ritchie had a lower OPP BA, lower OPS againgst, and gave up fewer HR/9. The point is that their overall numbers were very similar. Furthermore, both pitched in a good pitchers park, and a move to Commisky would mean a better hitters park. Both had to move from the NL to the AL. When the Ritchie trade occured everyone said that he would take advantage of a weak offensive AL Central(similar to Perez). Everyone said that Ritcher would have the advantage moving to the AL since most of the players hadn't seen him pitch(similar to Perez). Both had 1 very good year, and suspect numbers besides the good year. I can keep going with the similarities, but I think you get the point. I am not suggesting that Perez will suffer the same fate as Ritchie, but you definately have to take into to consideration, and make sure that you don't give up that much for a player that could pull a Ritchie. once again i miss the entire point you are trying to make??? this is what you posted: 2) "Ritchie is a classic power pitcher with a 93-94 MPH fastball and a hard slider" - ESPN profile. Ritchie can most certainly get it up to the mid-90's, however, he has the same problem that Navarro had. He throws hard and harder without a consistant breaking ball. That allows hitters to gear up for one speed. you take a quote from espn's profile on ritchie about him being a power pitcher...then you add your own take on it about why that style is ineffective...which btw i agree with you on...then in your next sentence , IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH ,you say this.. "The fact is that there are remarkable similarities between Ritchie and Perez that you choose to ignore(a golden rule - learn from past mistakes to help prevent similar future outcomes) and your only counter arguement is that Perez has more potential/talent, which is completely subjective and certainly debatable." how else am, i supposed to take that???....you point out everything thats wrong with rithcie and then say its remarkable similiar to perez all in the same paragraph....that might not be what you wanted to say but thats the point you made imo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 San Fran is the fourth team and the team that has courted him all along. The thing with Maddux is he needs a good to great defense behind him to win. Find the team with this and you have your winner. Ding, ding, ding St. Louis, IMHO, if Matt Morris doesn't f*** it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 The thing with Maddux is he needs a good to great defense behind him to win. Find the team with this and you have your winner. So Maddux is going to the Twins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 So Maddux is going to the Twins? Well it's not the Cubs with good ole Sammy patrolling RF in his one spot of dead grass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 once again i miss the entire point you are trying to make??? this is what you posted: 2) "Ritchie is a classic power pitcher with a 93-94 MPH fastball and a hard slider" - ESPN profile. Ritchie can most certainly get it up to the mid-90's, however, he has the same problem that Navarro had. He throws hard and harder without a consistant breaking ball. That allows hitters to gear up for one speed. you take a quote from espn's profile on ritchie about him being a power pitcher...then you add your own take on it about why that style is ineffective...which btw i agree with you on...then in your next sentence , IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH ,you say this.. "The fact is that there are remarkable similarities between Ritchie and Perez that you choose to ignore(a golden rule - learn from past mistakes to help prevent similar future outcomes) and your only counter arguement is that Perez has more potential/talent, which is completely subjective and certainly debatable." how else am, i supposed to take that???....you point out everything thats wrong with rithcie and then say its remarkable similiar to perez all in the same paragraph....that might not be what you wanted to say but thats the point you made imo... Baggio, please read the entire thread(especially the arguement between Brando and me) before you make a comment, because it is clear that you are confused. The ESPN profile quote was in response to Brando's comment about Ritchie not reaching the mid-90's. It served no other purpose. Maybe I should have made a new paragraph after that, but I thought most people would understand that I wasn't comparing Ritchie and Perez based on their raw stuff, but instead their numbers(mostly). You got confused(it happens a lot with my posts ), but the point I was trying to make when I said the similarities are remarkable between Ritchie and Perez are the points that I made in my previous post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 While talking about Ritchie, he was ineffective because he was a rap pitcher and his release point was all out of whack ever pitch. This left him hanging a lot more pitches then usual, but he was a power pitcher. That first month of the season Ritchie was pretty sucessful (not w-l wise, but pitching wise) and I remember him hitting 94 ish all the time. Maybe he really was seriously hurt with the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Hey Sportsfans! Keep in mind that IF we trade Frank for Odalis Perez: 1) we lose 35+ hrs, 120 rbis, at a bargain price of $6 million; AND 2) Odalis Perez is a free agent after the 2004 season, will want a big $, multiyear contract, and will leave, ala Colon! Do you still like this deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillieHarris2 Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 sound like a classic KW deal...trading for a guy whos contract ends after this year. how come the sox are so damn cheap. it really makes me sick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 sound like a classic KW deal...trading for a guy whos contract ends after this year. how come the sox are so damn cheap. it really makes me sick We NEED a new owner!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Are you positive Perez will be a free agent after this year? Where do you find that info? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 That first month of the season Ritchie was pretty sucessful (not w-l wise, but pitching wise) and I remember him hitting 94 ish all the time Funny thing radar gun, I distinctly recall TR in the 90-93mph range while with us. He threw in mid-90s like Judy threw in mid-90s.....a distant memory of the events that never occured. Plus, I clearly stated that velocity is not OP's main strenght. Duh. IMO there is very little merit to the OP-TR comparison, given the other parts of the equation, namely Paul Konerko and Kip Wells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I fear 61382 is about to strike again. Run for cover, all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Hey Sportsfans! Keep in mind that IF we trade Frank for Odalis Perez: 1) we lose 35+ hrs, 120 rbis, at a bargain price of $6 million; AND 2) Odalis Perez is a free agent after the 2004 season, will want a big $, multiyear contract, and will leave, ala Colon! Do you still like this deal? Keep in mind that, for starters, Odalis Perez is NOT a free agent after this year(though he can be non-tendered and then become a free agent), that Frank has a 10-5 no-trade clause and there is a possibility he would reject a trade to an NL team, AND that KW has said that no Frank or Konerko to LA talks are going on at the moment. The odds of Konerko to LA are about 1000:1. The odds of Thomas to LA are 1 million:1 or 1 billion:1. If I may pull a Michael Jordan(or Roger Clemens if you prefer), I am 99.9% sure that Thomas will not be dealt to LA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Funny thing radar gun, I distinctly recall TR in the 90-93mph range while with us. He threw in mid-90s like Judy threw in mid-90s.....a distant memory of the events that never occured. Plus, I clearly stated that velocity is not OP's main strenght. Duh. IMO there is very little merit to the OP-TR comparison, given the other parts of the equation, namely Paul Konerko and Kip Wells. Actually brando, IIRC, Garland can get it up to 94-95, however, his sinker then flattens out, and any major leaguer can hit the s*** out of a 94-95 MPH fastball ESPECIALLY if that's all they really need to look out for. Garland's best pitch is his sinker, and after that, he doesn't have much else(as has been pointed out before). You add 2-3 MPH to his sinker, but flatten it out(which is what happens), and he is Billy Koch circa 2003. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Are you positive Perez will be a free agent after this year? Where do you find that info? I thought I read it on ESPN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I thought I read it on ESPN! No you did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 No you did not. Thank you for correcting me! BTW, how do you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Thank you for correcting me! BTW, how do you know? Because this is not Odalis Perez's 6th year in the league. I believe it is his 5th. So after 2005 he will be a free agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 You da' man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 You da' man! Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Actually brando, IIRC, Garland can get it up to 94-95, however, his sinker then flattens out, and any major leaguer can hit the s*** out of a 94-95 MPH fastball ESPECIALLY if that's all they really need to look out for. Garland's best pitch is his sinker, and after that, he doesn't have much else(as has been pointed out before). You add 2-3 MPH to his sinker, but flatten it out(which is what happens), and he is Billy Koch circa 2003. Now imagine Ritchie....93 with little-to-NO movement. Garland was advertised as 93-96mph dude back when he was in HS. Now he is 91-93. Danny Wright was said to throw 94-98 but only rarely did I see him top 95 when he was called up late in 2001. He threw a few 96-97 ones. Missed the SZ by a few feet. Nardi talked to him.....In 2002, he was mainly 92-94 and last year he was 89-92, maybe because of his elbow. Speaking of injuries, Barcelo was touted as 95-98mph as well. Doctors are said to have told him he might hit triple digits 2-3 years after his TJ. When I saw him late in 2000 as a reliever, he was 93-95 on the generous FoxSports gun. It's entirely possibly that Lorenzo was already injured as he was operated on 6 months later. Where is Kyle Kane's upper-90s fastball? Jason Stumm was said to throw 93-97 in his first year in developmental league. Bobby Valentine was supposed to be in the upper 90s with sink.....Hoe come Jon Adkins is the hardest throwe in the org? Are we in such a bad shape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Velocity ain't everything. And Deininger, Baj, and Majewski are a few other hard throwers I can think of. Garland can throw as high as 94-95, but the Sox told him not too because it was very ineffective. Ocassionally he will throw it when he throws his striaght fastball (I guess its more of a cutter and he throws it in on lefties). And Wright throws hard, but things happen. Pitchers may of always been overthrowing or putting too much focus on velocity and when you made their mechanics better they realized they are better off taking off 2-3 mph because they get better movement, etc. And BA hypes guys and when a guy hits 97 once, then its said he throws it all the time, but thats not really the case. Don't think its the Sox saying these things because they aren't the ones writing the pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Maybe the 4th team is San Francisco........maybe Arizona... Ah hell.. who are we kiddin'.. Boras is talking out his ass to these teams trying to get Maddux more respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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