Greg Maddux

[upnorthsox]

Ok to finish my scenerio from above, one of the reasons I like it the most is that KW controls the action thru the whole thing. At $17 mil the Cards are blown out of the water and the Cubs would bow out. There's still LA but to even match the offer they'd need to have the Konerko deal in place and even then that's adding at least $12 mil to the payroll. IMO and probably theirs they'd end up being satisfied with just the hitting upgrade and if not then KW doesn't have to make the move and they're left with nothing. This is very much a winning situation for KW, much like his out lasting the Colon negotiations last yr with the end result being one of the top rotations in the Majors and the biggest PR bonanza this ownership group has ever had. Plus, they don't have to compromise with a long term pitching contract, they maintain their mediocre budget, and they have positioned themselves for next yr too. That's win, win, win.

 

Now my Pena deal(Hi MSF!:-)) to finish things off is this, Rauch, Ginter, Schoney, and Joe B. for Pena and Brandon Inge. Sounds like alot huh, and it is which is exactly why Dombrowski would be a fool to turn it down. That's 4 guys who have a legit chance to make their club(including 2 possible starters) for one young 1st baseman and a catcher who's going to start the yr in AAA. So why would KW do it? First, we get rid of Schoney's contract, Ginter probably won't make the team and won't make it thru waivers anyhow so no loss, Rauch has upside but it seems like he has issues too plus he's regressed from his MLBOY season and another yr like the last 2 and he'll have little value at all, finally trading Joe B. doesn't thrill me because of his upside but with Reed coming on and the risk of another mediocre season bellying up his trade value I make the trade. In return we get our starting 1st baseman for the next 5 yrs plus the second half of our catching duo for the next 5 yrs, we also get the final upgrade to our IF defense with, when Uribe is in the lineup, 3 and possibly even 4(depending on Willie) GG caliber fielders. In fact, an IF of Pena, Harris, Uribe, Crede, and Olivo/Inge might be the best young defensive infield in the majors. Combine that with the proposed rotation, BP, a new and refreshing manager, and two legit MVP candidates on O and that's a championship quality team.

 

Of course, all this makes way too much sense and that's why it'll never happen. This team always opts to shoot itself in the foot instead.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

i don't think any team in the nl would want frank as a full time 1st baseman

I dont think anyone in either leauge would want him at 1st base. He's totally brutal at the position.

[upnorthsox]

One final thing, when I proposed this elsewhere I was immediately jumped on about how that's overpaying for Maddux but if it fills a need, fits within your budget, and doesn't hamstring you in the future, who cares. Besides, thinking you are going to get him without being the best offer out there is just being unrealistic.

[Rex Hudler]

UNS, the problem is, I don't think LA deals Perez unless they have a deal done for Maddux. It could happen, but I don't think it would.

[Texsox]

Add Maddux to the Santo, Kessinger, line of ex-Cubs who we get at the end of their careers.

 

Yes, I would love to see him in a Sox uniform this season and next. However he would be the number 3 or 4 pitcher in the rotation taking 1 or 2 money. Mentoring younger pitchers? Isn't that why we pay coaches?

 

If he winds up with the Cubs it will be just one more reason why next season is going to be a nightmare.

[upnorthsox]

UNS, the problem is, I don't think LA deals Perez unless they have a deal done for Maddux.  It could happen, but I don't think it would.

But the Perez deal/talk has been there long before the new Maddux wrinkle so they were willing to make it before. Like I said, the reason I like the scenerio is that KW controls the action, he can afford to stand pat at this point LA is the one who needs to make a deal. Maddux is a luxury to LA at this point and they'd still need to make another deal, KW doesn't, so if he makes the deal contingent on signing Maddux then LA has little option but to blink.

 

Of course, KW could throw Schoney into the deal to solve one of his problems and give LA some face saving on the whole deal.

 

This is infinitely more doable than waiting on Seattle to trade us Soriano, the M's like KW can just say no and be little worse for the it.

[Chisoxfn]

But the Perez deal/talk has been there long before the new Maddux wrinkle so they were willing to make it before. Like I said, the reason I like the scenerio is that KW controls the action, he can afford to stand pat at this point LA is the one who needs to make a deal. Maddux is a luxury to LA at this point and they'd still need to make another deal, KW doesn't, so if he makes the deal contingent on signing Maddux then LA has little option but to blink.

 

Of course, KW could throw Schoney into the deal to solve one of his problems and give LA some face saving on the whole deal.

 

This is infinitely more doable than waiting on Seattle to trade us Soriano, the M's like KW can just say no and be little worse for the it.

But the Dodgers probably wouldn't do the deal unless they had Maddux in check. Now if its Thomas for Perez and a top prospect, then I think thats possible even if they don't get Maddux, but if its Konerko for Perez I don't know if it would be done without Maddux.

[Rex Hudler]

But the Perez deal/talk has been there long before the new Maddux wrinkle so they were willing to make it before.

 

Not necessarily UNS. The discussions of trading Perez began before they moved Kevin Brown. Since then it has been mere speculation that they would still move him.

[BrandoFan]

Ok to finish my scenerio from above, one of the reasons I like it the most is that KW controls the action thru the whole thing. At $17 mil the Cards are blown out of the water and the Cubs would bow out. There's still LA but to even match the offer they'd need to have the Konerko deal in place and even then that's adding at least $12 mil to the payroll. IMO and probably theirs they'd end up being satisfied with just the hitting upgrade and if not then KW doesn't have to make the move and they're left with nothing. This is very much a winning situation for KW, much like his out lasting the Colon negotiations last yr with the end result being one of the top rotations in the Majors and the biggest PR bonanza this ownership group has ever had. Plus, they don't have to compromise with a long term pitching contract, they maintain their mediocre budget, and they have positioned themselves for next yr too. That's win, win, win.

 

Now my Pena deal(Hi MSF!:-)) to finish things off is this, Rauch, Ginter, Schoney, and Joe B. for Pena and Brandon Inge. Sounds like alot huh, and it is which is exactly why Dombrowski would be a fool to turn it down. That's 4 guys who have a legit chance to make their club(including 2 possible starters) for one young 1st baseman and a catcher who's going to start the yr in AAA. So why would KW do it? First, we get rid of Schoney's contract, Ginter probably won't make the team and won't make it thru waivers anyhow so no loss, Rauch has upside but it seems like he has issues too plus he's regressed from his MLBOY season and another yr like the last 2 and he'll have little value at all, finally trading Joe B. doesn't thrill me because of his upside but with Reed coming on and the risk of another mediocre season bellying up his trade value I make the trade. In return we get our starting 1st baseman for the next 5 yrs plus the second half of our catching duo for the next 5 yrs, we also get the final upgrade to our IF defense with, when Uribe is in the lineup, 3 and possibly even 4(depending on Willie) GG caliber fielders. In fact, an IF of Pena, Harris, Uribe, Crede, and Olivo/Inge might be the best young defensive infield in the majors. Combine that with the proposed rotation, BP, a new and refreshing manager, and two legit MVP candidates on O and that's a championship quality team.

 

Of course, all this makes way too much sense and that's why it'll never happen. This team always opts to shoot itself in the foot instead.

1. Konerko for Perez is never gonna happen, unless some major prospects are involved. See: "ESPN 1000" thread.

 

2. Keep Inge and keep Pena. I'd rather bank on one of Borchard/Rauch coming through or one of Ginter/Show being a solid reliever. Who knows, if the cutter sticks, Show may just become a hit as a #5 starter.

 

3. Maddux, sadly, is not coming. We are 3-5 Mill over budget as it is.

 

4. You're right about the foot-shooting, though.

[Pastime]

Greg Maddux told a Las Vegas newspaper that there were 4 teams interested in him.

 

We know the Cubs, Cardinals, and Dodgers are interested, but who is the 4th team? I say the 4th team is ...... the White Sox!

 

I knew all those tirrades against Kenny would work. Nice job, people.

 

[DBAHO]

Greg Maddux told a Las Vegas newspaper that there were 4 teams interested in him.

 

We know the Cubs, Cardinals, and Dodgers are interested, but who is the 4th team?  I say the 4th team is ...... the White Sox!

 

I knew all those tirrades against Kenny would work.  Nice job, people.

 

Hmmm I say the 4th team is San Diego. They already made a splash by signin Wells, and they could follow it up with Maddux. They wanna win that division in a new ballpark this year.

[YASNY]

Team number 4 is probably Baltimore.

[Rooftop Shots]

No way I'd even want Maddux.

 

He got lit up a ton last year and I don't think he'll do that well this year.

 

KW was asked if the Sox were interested at Soxfest and he gave the best answer, NO.

 

Call me crazy, but I have no interest in Maddux and I bet I'm not the only one.

Due to time wise, I haven't read everyome's post on this thread, so if the upcoming statement has been addressed, please forgive me. I believe there is a good reason that Maddux got so lit up last year. Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't that the first year that Atlanta used the automated strike/ball system in order to test the umpires accuracy? Maddux is a corner location pitcher. To not make themselves look bad, don't you think that being the first time that the new system was used, that the umps rather "squeezed" the plate a little more than usual on Maddux? I've seen numerous times where Maddux was astounded at not getting a call strike that he had the previous 14 years. Of course that will tighten you up, and your release will be less effective. It will also cause you to "Steer" instead of "Pitch" (which is also something that Danny Wright cannot seem to conquer). Maddux is a smart pitcher.and due to not throwing rockets all his life, I believe that whoever gets him, if it's in a park without the electronic garbage, you'll see him loose and freewheeling and win 15+ games easily!

[DBAHO]

Team number 4 is probably Baltimore.

Hmmm that could be a possibility now that they missed out on I-Rod. Gettin Maddux to join Ponson would be a big time boost to their rotation.

[upnorthsox]

Not necessarily UNS.  The discussions of trading Perez began before they moved Kevin Brown.  Since then it has been mere speculation that they would still move him.

So you're saying then that if Maddux is signed by the Cubs then there's no way that LA would trade Perez for Konerko? Why has this never been mentioned in the 3 months before but only comes out now in the past week?

 

LA got a pitcher in return for Brown so I don't see why that would end Perez discussions.

 

If you think that LA wouldn't do this deal straight up then as I said we could throw Schoney in also, but it has been reported several times that it's KW who wanted more than just Perez and the hold up was the that and the ownership issue.

[BrandoFan]

Paying Maddux anything over 16-18 Mill over 2 would not be wise.

 

But if he is available at 6-7 M per, why the hell not.

 

Rumors of Maddux the Pitcher's demise have been greatly exaggerated. Factor in the weak-hitting ALC...I can see 3.50-3.75 ERA type season, and unlike Ponson and Colon, Maddux's CEILING (or best-case scenario) is higher, even at 38.

[whitesox61382]

Ok to finish my scenerio from above, one of the reasons I like it the most is that KW controls the action thru the whole thing. At $17 mil the Cards are blown out of the water and the Cubs would bow out. There's still LA but to even match the offer they'd need to have the Konerko deal in place and even then that's adding at least $12 mil to the payroll. IMO and probably theirs they'd end up being satisfied with just the hitting upgrade and if not then KW doesn't have to make the move and they're left with nothing. This is very much a winning situation for KW, much like his out lasting the Colon negotiations last yr with the end result being one of the top rotations in the Majors and the biggest PR bonanza this ownership group has ever had. Plus, they don't have to compromise with a long term pitching contract, they maintain their mediocre budget, and they have positioned themselves for next yr too. That's win, win, win.

 

Now my Pena deal(Hi MSF!:-)) to finish things off is this, Rauch, Ginter, Schoney, and Joe B. for Pena and Brandon Inge. Sounds like alot huh, and it is which is exactly why Dombrowski would be a fool to turn it down. That's 4 guys who have a legit chance to make their club(including 2 possible starters) for one young 1st baseman and a catcher who's going to start the yr in AAA. So why would KW do it? First, we get rid of Schoney's contract, Ginter probably won't make the team and won't make it thru waivers anyhow so no loss, Rauch has upside but it seems like he has issues too plus he's regressed from his MLBOY season and another yr like the last 2 and he'll have little value at all, finally trading Joe B. doesn't thrill me because of his upside but with Reed coming on and the risk of another mediocre season bellying up his trade value I make the trade. In return we get our starting 1st baseman for the next 5 yrs plus the second half of our catching duo for the next 5 yrs, we also get the final upgrade to our IF defense with, when Uribe is in the lineup, 3 and possibly even 4(depending on Willie) GG caliber fielders. In fact, an IF of Pena, Harris, Uribe, Crede, and Olivo/Inge might be the best young defensive infield in the majors. Combine that with the proposed rotation, BP, a new and refreshing manager, and two legit MVP candidates on O and that's a championship quality team.

 

Of course, all this makes way too much sense and that's why it'll never happen. This team always opts to shoot itself in the foot instead.

To begin with, the Sox aren't going to get Maddux, so you can lay that pipedream to rest. The Sox are probably a few mil over budget as we speak, so signing a starter for 6-7M/yr isn't going to happen.

 

Secondly, please stay away from KW with that trade purposal for Pena. That is a terrible trade for the Sox. When you are as thin as the Sox pitching wise, you don't trade away 3 pitchers with a good shot to make the team(and a good outfield prospect) for a 1B you could get for 2-3M on the FA market(Travis Lee). Inge is terrible. Think of Olivo with much less offense(if thats possible). I like Pena, but you are giving up way too much. No thanks.

 

Brando, for the last time it won't take more than Konerko to get Perez. I wish that I had bookmarked the article that clearly stated that the Dodgers were close to doing that deal straight up. Furthermore, there was a recent article in one of the Chicago papers that suggested that KW might want MORE then just Perez for Konerko. So please quit with this Konerko and a top prospect(or 2) stuff. Why give up more then you have to? If the Sox do what you suggest, than they are setting themselves up for a Ritchie part II.

[southsider2k5]

Greg Maddux told a Las Vegas newspaper that there were 4 teams interested in him.

 

We know the Cubs, Cardinals, and Dodgers are interested, but who is the 4th team?  I say the 4th team is ...... the White Sox!

 

I knew all those tirrades against Kenny would work.  Nice job, people.

 

The Mets I bet.

[upnorthsox]

To begin with, the Sox aren't going to get Maddux, so you can lay that pipedream to rest. The Sox are probably a few mil over budget as we speak, so signing a starter for 6-7M/yr isn't going to happen.

 

Secondly, please stay away from KW with that trade purposal for Pena. That is a terrible trade for the Sox. When you are as thin as the Sox pitching wise, you don't trade away 3 pitchers with a good shot to make the team(and a good outfield prospect) for a 1B you could get for 2-3M on the FA market(Travis Lee). Inge is terrible. Think of Olivo with much less offense(if thats possible). I like Pena, but you are giving up way too much. No thanks.

 

Brando, for the last time it won't take more than Konerko to get Perez. I wish that I had bookmarked the article that clearly stated that the Dodgers were close to doing that deal straight up. Furthermore, there was a recent article in one of the Chicago papers that suggested that KW might want MORE then just Perez for Konerko. So please quit with this Konerko and a top prospect(or 2) stuff. Why give up more then you have to? If the Sox do what you suggest, than they are setting themselves up for a Ritchie part II.

I understand people not going for the Pena trade, that's just my opinion but when he's a GG All-Star next yr there's going to be alot of ITYS's out of me.

 

Maddux is no more a pipedream than Colon was last yr and I believe I laid out how we can afford him already so I won't repeat myself.

 

Of course, I agree with you on Konerko for Perez.

[BrandoFan]

Brando, for the last time it won't take more than Konerko to get Perez. I wish that I had bookmarked the article that clearly stated that the Dodgers were close to doing that deal straight up. Furthermore, there was a recent article in one of the Chicago papers that suggested that KW might want MORE then just Perez for Konerko. So please quit with this Konerko and a top prospect(or 2) stuff. Why give up more then you have to? If the Sox do what you suggest, than they are setting themselves up for a Ritchie part II.

 

Merde!

 

1. I already told you how utterly worthless these articles can be and almost always are. Go roam LA sport column archives. I am sure there you'll find plenty Money-challenged--White-Sox-possibly-willing-to-do-a-Magglio-for-Perez-and-Gutierrez type preposterumors. Don't believe everything you read.

 

2. A lefty Perez is way more talented and younger than Ritchie (who never threw mid-90s, btw) was, and how you can compare 24yo Kip Wells (cheap) with 28yo Konerko (very expensive) situation is truly astonishing.

 

3. KW might want something MORE for Perez? Are you out of your f***ing mind? Unless that something is Gagne , that is....

 

4. Nobody gives a s*** about Danny Wright and Emenio Pacheco other than the Sox. At least teams who actually want to WIN don't. Deal with it.

 

5. I will be ECSTATIC if what you're saying about Konerko-for-Perez-and-prospect is true. It would make my day.

 

6. I have a question I asked you in the "ESPN 1000" thread. Do humor me, will ya?

[whitesox61382]

1) I don't put much faith in the media, but is it any more or less untrue than you or me and are opinions? I am simple pointing out that other people are suggesting that Konerko for Perez is a reasonable trade.

 

2) "Ritchie is a classic power pitcher with a 93-94 MPH fastball and a hard slider" - ESPN profile. Ritchie can most certainly get it up to the mid-90's, however, he has the same problem that Navarro had. He throws hard and harder without a consistant breaking ball. That allows hitters to gear up for one speed. The fact is that there are remarkable similarities between Ritchie and Perez that you choose to ignore(a golden rule - learn from past mistakes to help prevent similar future outcomes) and your only counter arguement is that Perez has more potential/talent, which is completely subjective and certainly debatable.

 

Please learn to read my post a little more carefully so I don't have to repeat myself. At no point did I compare Konerko to KWells, however, I did mention that it is a bad habit to trade players when their value is at an alltime low. I compared Wright to KWells, which might be a little bit of a reach, but none the less is relivant. KWells was coming off a terrible 2nd half in which he posted an ERA of 7.53(after a great 1st half). Sox fans began to jump off of the KWells bandwagon and pointed out that he was going to be 25 next year and had yet to show anything at the major league level(similar to Wright). I am then comparing Pacheco to Fogg, which as has remarkable similarities. Fogg was an aging minor leaguer, coming off a terrible season(the one major difference between Pacheco), with average stuff at best(Pacheco probably has better raw stuff), and most people thought that he was just a worthless throw in. The similaritites between your purposal and the Ritchie trade are very similar.

 

3) I didn't write the article so don't look at me. I believe it is still on the first page of the board so you might want to take a look at it.

 

4) Once again, bias subjectivity pushed off as fact. You need to edit it and say "You" don't give a s*** about Wright and Pacheco. I am sure that there are many pitcher hungry teams that would love to give Wright and Pacheco a chance in hope of finding a diamond in the rough.

 

5) As would I.

 

6) I did humor you. Go to that thread to read my response.

[BrandoFan]

1) I don't put much faith in the media, but is it any more or less untrue than you or me and are opinions? I am simple pointing out that other people are suggesting that Konerko for Perez is a reasonable trade.

 

2) "Ritchie is a classic power pitcher with a 93-94 MPH fastball and a hard slider" - ESPN profile. Ritchie can most certainly get it up to the mid-90's, however, he has the same problem that Navarro had. He throws hard and harder without a consistant breaking ball. That allows hitters to gear up for one speed. The fact is that there are remarkable similarities between Ritchie and Perez that you choose to ignore(a golden rule - learn from past mistakes to help prevent similar future outcomes) and your only counter arguement is that Perez has more potential/talent, which is completely subjective and certainly debatable.

 

Please learn to read my post a little more carefully so I don't have to repeat myself. At no point did I compare Konerko to KWells, however, I did mention that it is a bad habit to trade players when their value is at an alltime low. I compared Wright to KWells, which might be a little bit of a reach, but none the less is relivant. KWells was coming off a terrible 2nd half in which he posted an ERA of 7.53(after a great 1st half). Sox fans began to jump off of the KWells bandwagon and pointed out that he was going to be 25 next year and had yet to show anything at the major league level(similar to Wright). I am then comparing Pacheco to Fogg, which as has remarkable similarities. Fogg was an aging minor leaguer, coming off a terrible season(the one major difference between Pacheco), with average stuff at best(Pacheco probably has better raw stuff), and most people thought that he was just a worthless throw in. The similaritites between your purposal and the Ritchie trade are very similar.

 

3) I didn't write the article so don't look at me. I believe it is still on the first page of the board so you might want to take a look at it.

 

4) Once again, bias subjectivity pushed off as fact. You need to edit it and say "You" don't give a s*** about Wright and Pacheco. I am sure that there are many pitcher hungry teams that would love to give Wright and Pacheco a chance in hope of finding a diamond in the rough.

 

5) As would I.

 

6) I did humor you. Go to that thread to read my response.

1) No, it's not. However, you reference it as though it was something more than a dime-a-dozen speculation. I pointed out that in the last 2+ monts, there have been all sorts of often contradictory rumors and "articles" filled with often unsubstantiated possibilities..

 

2) When Ritchie was with us, he was 90-92mph pitcher occasionally reaching 93. The difference of course is Perez is a LEFTY, his fastball has more movement, his delivery more deceptive, actuallt has a legitimate third pitch (do you need scouts to confirm everythin for you or do you actually see pitchers in question), he is younger than then 30+ yo Ritchie, which means that he simply has better odds of improving. When a trade is as close as PK-OP (both talented), such odds play a big, often decisive role.

 

3) When you compare the trade, by default you must examine both sides. I already said that Perez is IMO a better bet than Ritchie was. But that is questionable. What isn't, however, is the fact that Kip was 24 and CHEAP. Konerko is 28 and VERY expensive. It's simple: Sox did not need to GET RID of Wells, but they sure as hell would LOVE to give Konerko's 17 Mill away for NOTHING if only they could find the takers. Konerko is no worse than Kip Wells was as a PLAYER-- one is an overrated head case, the other was talented but inconsistent--you're right, but FINANCIALLY speaking, there is NO comparison between the two.

 

4) Nobody gave a s*** about Josh Fogg EITHER back in 2002. He still hasn't proved SQUAT. Get over Pacheco. ROCKIES DIDN'T CARE ABOUT HIM and he only raised that non-value slightly with a strong 2003. And Danny Wright lost whatever value he had after the elbow ordeal and subsequent loss of his once sharp curveball as well as of movement/velocity on his FASTBALL.....Wake up! Just because some loser, pitcher-desperate, no-money team might one day take a chance on him were he to be cut, DOESN'T mean the win-now Sox or win-now Dodgers should or do give a flying f*** about him.

 

Then again you think that Ruddy Yan has some trade value to LA, so I will never convince you that OTHER teams might not share your or mine (intuition-fueled) enthusiasm for two mildly talented busts. It's a pretty fair assessment that to OTHER teams, Danny Wright is just a Garry Glover but with a possible elbow problem. Some value.

 

I happen to want Perez for Konerko trade fairly badly. And I don't think it can be done straight up. If LA will take Wright OR Pacheco, fanstastic. But they might not. I am sure, if it were that simple, Kenny would have swung it LONG time ago. He couldn't.....because LA doesn't see Pacheco OR Wright's potential the way we do. And once you have little use for someone, does it make that much of a difference if it's TWO someone's instead of one that you have little faith in?

[baggio202]

2) "Ritchie is a classic power pitcher with a 93-94 MPH fastball and a hard slider" - ESPN profile. Ritchie can most certainly get it up to the mid-90's, however, he has the same problem that Navarro had. He throws hard and harder without a consistant breaking ball. That allows hitters to gear up for one speed. The fact is that there are remarkable similarities between Ritchie and Perez that you choose to ignore(a golden rule - learn from past mistakes to help prevent similar future outcomes) and your only counter arguement is that Perez has more potential/talent, which is completely subjective and certainly debatable.

you're comparision of ritchie and perez is imo just flat out wrong...im not sure where you got your info on what perez throws but he is not just a power pitcher...ive seen him pitch a lot and he has a good change and he takes alot of his curve ball....todd ritchie would be the last guy id compare him too...

 

perez k numbers are better and his walk totals are lower that ritchie's..

 

a successful pitcher that todd ritchie reminds me of would be rick sutcliffe...sutlcliffe had much better command of his pitches..and wasone tough sob that willed his way through games...

[witesoxfan]

I'm not sure anyone has mentioned it yet, but hasn't Maddux said that he will not play in the AL because of the DH? I thought I'd heard that somewhere and that he will only play in the NL.

 

Or in other words, you can count 14 teams out right away.

[BrandoFan]

you're comparision of ritchie and perez is imo just flat out wrong...im not sure where you got your info on what perez throws but he is not just a power pitcher

 

Perez is not a PP. If I gave the impression that he brought real heat, I shouldn't have.

 

He is your basic low-90s-occasionally-touching-94 pitcher. Unlike TR, his strenght is movement, change-up, breaking ball, being LHP with a somewhat unusual release slot, his poise. And a pretty high ceiling.

 

The only reason this comparison was made was because our friend commented on how similar the two trades looked.