aboz56 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Well said Rex and I agree with you on all points. Great post with good analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsh Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 from the description that people have given, he sounds alot like a jamie moyer type pitcher. anyway the reason people love him is because he posted here a couple times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillieHarris2 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 rex that was very well said, i think we just need to give neal some time to develop and i think he'll be alright in a year or two. I think the reason why he was having trouble last year is because he was brought up in the middle of a playoff race and that put a lot of pressure on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 I don't see any Jamie Moyer type comparisons or similarities at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsh Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 baggs, aboz and others have given some good info on Cotts so I will try not to repeat it, Here are some other thoughts..... 1. Cotts flat out knows how to pitch. He is a rare pitcher that knows how to use all four quadrants of the strike zone rather than just pitching in and out. His ability to change speeds, coupled with deception and use of all four quadrants of the zone make him very difficult to hit. I saw him many times freeze hitters and get a K looking because hitters weren't expecting to see what they got. He doesn't follow normal pitching patterns. Being able to do that, allows you to expand the strike zone on hitters which makes you that much more effective. left hander, non-dominant fastball, but off-speed pitches make it seem faster,changes speeds well, moves the ball inside/outside up/down in the strikezone. the only difference i see is that moyer has learned to control where his pitches go and cotts is still developing that control. if you didn't have cotts name there i would swear you were talking about jamie moyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Rector Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 2. The Sox did Neal no favors by trying to teach him to throw a cutter almost immediately after his MLB arrival. What does that say to a kid other than "We don't think you are good enough"? Why not give a kid a chance to use the stuff that was supposedly good enough to get him there in the first place and develop some confidence first, then try to add to his repertoire? Trying to change him after his initial bad outing only drives his confidence down. 3. The Yankee Stadium debacle was the final straw. Cotts was set up to fail in that game. Manuel teetered all week over whether Cotts of Buehrle would start. No one knew who would go and both pitchers were in limbo (is it any wonder BOTH lost?). Basically, Manuel said that if the Sox win the first two games of the series, then Cotts would go because the series was already won and that game was less important (yeah, right). If they lost one of those games, he would go with Buehrle because they would then need that game to win the series. Couple that with the fact the whole Sox clubhouse wanted Buehrle to get the start, and you have a perfect molotav cocktail ready to blow. What else could have that done to a pitcher who was already struggling than completely f*** up his mindset? As I said, the Sox set him up to fail, so that debacle should have come as no surprise. 2 things: 1st: Are you suggesting that Cooper is not the great pitching coach that he's cracked up to be? 2nd: For what's its worth, there was a story going around the internet to the effect that KW had twisted Manuel's arm to have Cotts start at Yankee Stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Keith Foulke's change up is lights out. He might have the best change up in the league. There's no comparison between him and Cotts. Cotts and control don't belong in the same sentence. There are a lot of other teams that are stacked with offense besides the Yankees. Teams like Baltimore and Toronto, who aren't going anywhere in the long run, will light that kid up. The Red Sox, Angels, and Mariners would annihilate us with Cotts out on the mound. He can't start, and he can't pitch out of the bullpen because of all the left handers that we already have. He's not going to make the team out of spring training. NO COTTS. SEND HIM BACK TO DAWSON'S CREEK. Remember, even without good control, Cotts did pretty good against Texas if I recall and Texas has had one of the more potent offenses in the majors the past few years. I don't believe he is ready, but I Think their is definately a reason to be excited about Neal Cotts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Cotts throws 89-91, Moyer is more like 84-86. Cotts deception has a lot to do with his motion, not just changing speeds. Moyer never had a strikeout rate of 11.2 per 9 innings. Cotts batting average against was .178 last year. Moyer was at .246. I haven't seen Moyer a lot in recent years, but I don't recall him getting hitters out up and down much. He's pretty much a stay down and away, while coming inside on occasion, type pitcher, ala Tom Glavine. That is not Cotts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 2 things: 1st: Are you suggesting that Cooper is not the great pitching coach that he's cracked up to be? 2nd: For what's its worth, there was a story going around the internet to the effect that KW had twisted Manuel's arm to have Cotts start at Yankee Stadium. 1. Not saying anything about Cooper's ability. Just that it wasn't very smart trying what they did with Cotts at the time they did it. 2. Don't know or care who made the decision, just that it was stupid in how they handled it. I wouldn't even had minded them starting Cotts against the Yankees if they would have announced it a week earlier, stated they had confidence in Neal and were going to stick with that decision regardless of wins and losses earlier in the series. If you are going to throw a guy out there, stand behind him so he knows you are behind him. The Sox certainly did not do that in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 from the description that people have given, he sounds alot like a jamie moyer type pitcher. anyway the reason people love him is because he posted here a couple times. I don't know who I'd compare him to. I can't think of any lefties out there that throw similar to him. Mulder has more velocity, and Glavine is Glavine and he has some pretty damn good control. But I do really believe Cotts could turn into one of those guys, but thats still a few steps down the road. But as his control imrpoves (All I had to do was see the futures game and I knew Cotts could pitch; the way he moved the ball up in the zone, down in the zone, all over the zone was beautiful. The hitters were off balanced and he was looking smooth). The curveball and changeup have continued to get better and while the Sox rushed the cutter on him, he got to work on it some more in the fall league and in the long run I think it will be an asset to him. Also, great post Rex, I think you pretty much summed it up exactly. JM definately didn't help him out. And no, that first game wasn't pretty (I remember being all pumped because he was going to make his debut in Anaheim and I was gonna be at the game thinking I'd see the first start of one of the next Sox aces, but everyone always has to remind themselves, when a prospect makes the jump to the majors, their is an adjustment period and depending on how raw a player is, their is also a definate learning curve...heck, I'd say all playesr have a learning curve, the question is how much they have already). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 thanx rex...thats alot of info on cotts i didnt know about..its nice to have someone living in the town of one of our affiliates who actually gets to see these kids play more than just once or twice in ST...whish we had a poster here from all our affiliates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 1st: Are you suggesting that Cooper is not the great pitching coach that he's cracked up to be? 2nd: For what's its worth, there was a story going around the internet to the effect that KW had twisted Manuel's arm to have Cotts start at Yankee Stadium 1. Coop is an average pitching coach. His greatness is a myth. 2. It's either the case of spine-less, vision-free Jerry Manuel OR crazy-manipulative Kenny. Either way, hardly anything to be surprised over. Typical White Sox, 2nd-rate organization fodder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 1. Coop is an average pitching coach. His greatness is a myth. 2. It's either the case of spine-less, vision-free Jerry Manuel OR crazy-manipulative Kenny. Either way, hardly anything to be surprised over. Typical White Sox, 2nd-rate organization fodder. who ever said coop was great? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 who ever said coop was great? I'll say he's one of the better pitching coaches in the majors. I'd rate him as top 5 probably. I think the Sox are very very lucky to have him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 I'll say he's one of the better pitching coaches in the majors. I'd rate him as top 5 probably. I think the Sox are very very lucky to have him. Who eva said nardi was bad, real bad. Well pretty much all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastime Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Keep in mind that Jamie Moyer was about 30 years old when he finally "got it" and the proverbial light bulb lit up above his head. Cotts doesn't have the experience, savvy, or moxie of a veteran pitcher - or the confidence. I don't know if he'll get it with the Sox - or with another team. I do think he'll get it, but I hope it's sooner rather than later. Much like David Wells helped Mark Buehrle and helped him to "turn a corner," I'd like to see Buehrle do the same with Cotts. In other words, take him under his wing, so to say. Ozzie Guillen preaches this "family atmosphere" stuff all the time, so I hope it's true. Wait and see, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 I'll say he's one of the better pitching coaches in the majors. I'd rate him as top 5 probably. I think the Sox are very very lucky to have him. He didn't fix Wright, who regressed badly. He didn't fix Garland, who stayed the same. Billy Koch and Rick White had by far their worst years under him. Mark Burhle had his worst year under Coop. Colon couldn't throw a curve or a slider for s*** under Coop and despite pitching in a weak-hitting division, barely broke the 4.00 ERA barrier. Cotts, Porzio totally blew. What his instruction/encouragement was, it didn't work. Outside of helping Loaiza (though I remember E-Lo was excellent fom his first start as a ST invitee, so how much did it have to do with Coop and how much with Loaiza working his ass off during off-season as a FA?), the guy has been unspectacular. Where's the greatness? Hell, I'll settle for excellence. In a division as tight as ALC, a pitching coach (like manager, GM, etc) can decide everything-- the diffence between making the playoffs by a game or 3....and going home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man hands Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Keith Foulke's change up is lights out. He might have the best change up in the league. There's no comparison between him and Cotts. Cotts and control don't belong in the same sentence. There are a lot of other teams that are stacked with offense besides the Yankees. Teams like Baltimore and Toronto, who aren't going anywhere in the long run, will light that kid up. The Red Sox, Angels, and Mariners would annihilate us with Cotts out on the mound. He can't start, and he can't pitch out of the bullpen because of all the left handers that we already have. He's not going to make the team out of spring training. NO COTTS. SEND HIM BACK TO DAWSON'S CREEK. That is the most ridiculous post I have ever heard! Granted, I am a little biased as I am friends and teammates with Cotts, but I am still a baseball fan, first and foremost. You are correct is saying that Neal and Foulke should not be compared. they are totally different pitchers and to compare them is just silly. But still, as Rex has posted, his #'s are ridiculous (opponents Batting Average, K's per 9 inn.), he is only 23 years old and he only made 4 starts. Give the kid a chance before you bash him. I guess this is the place to bash players, which is your right, but I can't wait till that kid shoves and you jump on his bandwagon!! Baj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastime Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Baj, There's no disputing Cotts' stuff. It's on par with Buehrle, Moyer, Tanana, etc. The A's will rue the day they dumped him. However, our biggest concern is his control. In the minors, he might get more hitters to "nibble" than he would get in the majors. Like Sandy Koufax once said, "Even the best hitters are only successful 1/3 of the time, so the hell with it. I throw them my best stuff and say 'hit it if you can." Sure, Cotts doesn't have Sandy's stuff, but he's got great stuff of his own. His stuff isn't overpowering, but it can be nasty - since hitters can be easily fooled by change of speeds. I watched Doug Drabek, Rick Reuschel, Greg Swindell, etc make a living off of fooling hitters by changing speeds and making them look stupid. Can Cotts do that? I think he has big-league stuff, just not the knowledge, savvy, experience, or confidence to use that to his advantage. I wish he could have that now, instead of later (on some other team). For the record, I think Cotts could be a mainstay in the Sox rotation for years if Buehrle puts his arm around the kid and tutors him. He just needs a simple vote of confidence, and he could be a good one. I hate when people equate velocity with "success in the major leagues." What a bunch of s***. It's not how hard you throw, it's what you do with your pitches. You know that already. Maybe you can give us Cotts' mindset. If anyone can instill the confidence in him that is needed, it's Buehrle and Ozzie. I want him to succeed here so bad it burns me. Well, have a good night, and have a good time in the minors. I know it must suck ass to be there, but if you spend your money right, you can have some great meals that are satisfying and tasty. I'm on a budget when I travel, so I find the best cheap-ass food I can find, and enjoy it a lot. Godspeed, my friend. Here's to you making a roster spot next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I guess this is the place to bash players, which is your right, but I can't wait till that kid shoves and you jump on his bandwagon!! Baj Baj, I can't speak for anyone else here, but I personally wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror if I couldn't be honest and fair and at least somewhat objective when seriously analyzing players.. I would never bash a player just for the sake of bashing, especially kids my age (which most of you are more or less, let's face it). That would be pathetic and unbecoming. I may get pissed off, but it's never malicious or personal. But I also don't toss anyone's salad, literally or figuratively. Luckily, the 5-6 players that DO post here have enough intelligence and sense of humor, not to mention the sheer confidence in their abilities, that I never have to worry about having to kiss anyone's ass and can speak freely and joke around without fear of offending anybody. As far as you guys' (that goes for people like Kris, Ryan, Arnie and Emencio who don't post here as well) making some serious impact in the MAJORS......People on this site have HIGH expecations of you cream of the crop youngsters and can be pretty damn harsh on occasion....But if they are anything like myself, DEEP DOWN they would love NOTHING more than to have their amateur opinions proven wrong, and would rather be eating some major crow all summer long if it means that Neal, Brandon, Jim, you, Wyatt are putting up ZERO's on the board inning after inning after inning, bringing pride and glory back to Chicago. Simple as that. Brando. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 The only similarity I see between Cotts and Foulke besides their fastball speed(which is hardly unique as tons of guys are in the 90-91 range) is that they both have a hesitation at the top of their delivery, things pretty much stop after that. If there was disappointment in Cotts it's that we were hoping for an F-Rod and didn't get it, but that's our fault not his. It goes to show just how incredibly lucky that 2002 Angel team really was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Baj, Speaking of bandwagons, I know a few guys who are jumping on yours bigtime and I'd love to hear a self assessment from you and where you feel your road is leading this yr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Baj, Speaking of bandwagons, I know a few guys who are jumping on yours bigtime and I'd love to hear a self assessment from you and where you feel your road is leading this yr. I believe he already did that in a different thread, UNS. Check one of the prospect threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I believe he already did that in a different thread, UNS. Check one of the prospect threads. I was hoping someone had a link for this old man if it was up already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Rex, never mind I forgot I can look up all posts by a poster by clicking on their name which is sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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