southsider2k5 Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 And yet we have much less team to show for it. I'll hold my commendations for them thank you. Believe me, I am not commenting on how well the money was spent. I just hate it when people have bad information they are using as fact. For all of the people who are complaining that they payroll has not gone up, here it is in black and white 2003 White Sox payroll= $51 million 2004 White Sox payroll as of Soxfest =$64million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 And yet we have much less team to show for it. I'll hold my commendations for them thank you. WHy is that? Just because we don't have Bartolo and Gordon? We still have one of the deepest pens in the division if not the deepest. Even with Bartolo, at the beginning of last year our staff wasn't looking that great. Loaiza wasn't thought too highly off. Wright and Garland were both in the rotation as well. I am assuming you think our team is lesser this year between the beginning of this season and the beginning of last season just because we don't have Bartolo? I don't understand that. I think our team may actually be better this year than last. We will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 ^Year, Team IP W- L BB SO ERA 1997, Cle 94.0 4- 7 45 66 5.65 1998, Cle 204.0 14- 9 79 158 3.71 1999, Cle 205.0 18- 5 76 161 3.95 2000, Cle 188.0 15- 8 98 212 3.88 2001, Cle 222.1 14-12 90 201 4.09 2002, Cle 116.1 10- 4 31 75 2.55 2002, Mon 117.0 10- 4 39 74 3.31 2003, Chi (AL) 242.0 15-13 67 173 3.87 ^Totals 1388.2 100-62 525 1120 3.86 He ate 242 innings last year... Yep, we're clearly better without him. And Gordon pitched 74 innings.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Provided this is accurate, does anyone think KW will do anything to fill this potential hole? I say potential because who knows if Person would have even made the team let alone the rotation. There's not much in the way of free agents out there, but what about John Burkett or Garrett Stephenson? Neither are long term solutions...probably no more than a season or two, but Person is in that same boat. This off-season has been very frustrating. Even though I think the Sox have a chance at the division, KW's moves (or lack thereof) have been less than exciting. I was actually pleased by the Person signing. I figured he could have added somthing to the team. No that he's blown out his achilles (supposedly), it is just another disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Innings Pitched Mark 230.1 Loaiza 226.1 Garland 191.2 Wright 86.1 Scott 64.2 White 47.2 Marte 79.2 Koch 53.0 We're NOT hurt by the loss of Colon...?? We lost a possible 316 innings pitched over night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Gordon's innings I think are more easily replaced than Colon's. They may plan on acquiring an innings eater come June or July, but they seem to have forgotten the April/May games count just as much in the standings. As always, it will be a wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Gordon's innings I think are more easily replaced than Colon's. They may plan on acquiring an innings eater come June or July, but they seem to have forgotten the April/May games count just as much in the standings. As always, it will be a wait and see. By who Jim..? At this point there is not a replacement. We need Kelly and Marte to do something they have never done before. Not to mention the SR has to step it way up. We are literally screwed if Loaiza doesn't have another great year. Mark - and there is no guarantee that he'll have a Cy year - can't do it all alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 By who Jim..? At this point there is not a replacement. We need Kelly and Marte to do something they have never done before. Not to mention the SR has to step it way up. We are literally screwed if Loaiza doesn't have another great year. Mark - and there is no guarantee that he'll have a Cy year - can't do it all alone. Ok, let's write this season off before it starts. Should we have retained Flash and Fatolo for 16.5 Mill per year total? How does a 81 Mill payroll sound? Flash goes down with injury for the 3rd time, this time for good. Bartolo starts getting arm/back problems now that he is 32 with a ton of pitches/innings in his arm AND fatter than ever; the payday pretty much assures that he will be complacent and ineffective in Cali. I am glad we're going with 300K Rauch or Cotts as opposed to a 7.5 Mill a year overweight, overrated Frayed Labrum Wonder, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Master Buehrle Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I want to know where maggsmaggs heard this. It's always tragic when something like this happens. Person could have been a decent starter for us. But, I will believe it when I actually see some kind of article on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 By who Jim..? At this point there is not a replacement. We need Kelly and Marte to do something they have never done before. Not to mention the SR has to step it way up. We are literally screwed if Loaiza doesn't have another great year. Mark - and there is no guarantee that he'll have a Cy year - can't do it all alone. I'm more worried about the starters than the bullpen. Here's why: Buehrle's stats have gotten worse each year. He has become more hittable. We cannot hope for Esteban to have the same breakout year. I'd be satisified with 200 innings and 17 wins. Even that is a stretch. Garland? Who knows, although I think he is ready to step up. Scott S.? Total wild card. Same for the 5th spot. The bullpen though, is in better shape IMO. It will be very difficult for Koch to be any worse ... just one way to go for him, up. Marte is very solid and I believe will continue to improve. Wunsch needs to stay healthy, but even if he doesn't we have lefty situational relievers pretty close to stepping in ... Sanders and Munoz. Cliff Politte is a guy I like. He has a good arm and can pitch 60-70 innings and be effective. I see him eating a lot of Gordon's 75 innings. Takatsu should take over Sullivan's role, i.e. the 7th inning guy. He's a ground ball pitcher and that's what's needed in that role. The back end of the bullpen has lots of candidates ... Wright, Grilli, Santiago, Mike Jackson, Ginter, Majewski, and a few more. Any of these guys could also step in to fill a role if one of the top 5 falter. The bullpen is balanced and fairly deep, although like most I'd prefer a different closer than Koch. He's too "high wire" for me. But the good news there is, they have other guys who have closed games ... Marte, Politte. Takatsu has experience closing, albeit in Japan. I am very disappointed though, that they haven't brought in one or two more guys to challenge for a starter spot. They are very vulnerable and lacking depth. At this point, I would be in favor of bringing in Burkett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Ok, let's write this season off before it starts. Should we have retained Flash and Fatolo for 16.5 Mill per year total? How does a 81 Mill payroll sound? Flash goes down with injury for the 3rd time, this time for good. Bartolo starts getting arm/back problems now that he is 32 with a ton of pitches/innings in his arm AND fatter than ever; the payday pretty much assures that he will be complacent and ineffective in Cali. I am glad we're going with 300K Rauch or Cotts as opposed to a 7.5 Mill a year overweight, overrated Frayed Labrum Wonder, too. Oh STFU Brando.. I'm the LAST person writing off anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I'm more worried about the starters than the bullpen. Here's why: Buehrle's stats have gotten worse each year. He has become more hittable. We cannot hope for Esteban to have the same breakout year. I'd be satisified with 200 innings and 17 wins. Even that is a stretch. Garland? Who knows, although I think he is ready to step up. Scott S.? Total wild card. Same for the 5th spot. The bullpen though, is in better shape IMO. It will be very difficult for Koch to be any worse ... just one way to go for him, up. Marte is very solid and I believe will continue to improve. Wunsch needs to stay healthy, but even if he doesn't we have lefty situational relievers pretty close to stepping in ... Sanders and Munoz. Cliff Politte is a guy I like. He has a good arm and can pitch 60-70 innings and be effective. I see him eating a lot of Gordon's 75 innings. Takatsu should take over Sullivan's role, i.e. the 7th inning guy. He's a ground ball pitcher and that's what's needed in that role. The back end of the bullpen has lots of candidates ... Wright, Grilli, Santiago, Mike Jackson, Ginter, Majewski, and a few more. Any of these guys could also step in to fill a role if one of the top 5 falter. The bullpen is balanced and fairly deep, although like most I'd prefer a different closer than Koch. He's too "high wire" for me. But the good news there is, they have other guys who have closed games ... Marte, Politte. Takatsu has experience closing, albeit in Japan. I am very disappointed though, that they haven't brought in one or two more guys to challenge for a starter spot. They are very vulnerable and lacking depth. At this point, I would be in favor of bringing in Burkett. Eh... Same thing. You just got more detailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 ^Year, Team IP W- L BB SO ERA 1997, Cle 94.0 4- 7 45 66 5.65 1998, Cle 204.0 14- 9 79 158 3.71 1999, Cle 205.0 18- 5 76 161 3.95 2000, Cle 188.0 15- 8 98 212 3.88 2001, Cle 222.1 14-12 90 201 4.09 2002, Cle 116.1 10- 4 31 75 2.55 2002, Mon 117.0 10- 4 39 74 3.31 2003, Chi (AL) 242.0 15-13 67 173 3.87 ^Totals 1388.2 100-62 525 1120 3.86 He ate 242 innings last year... Yep, we're clearly better without him. And Gordon pitched 74 innings.. Ok, but I don't think he can keep that up for another 4 years, do you? That is what the Angels are paying him to do. Each year he gets fatter. I am also saying that our pitching staff as a whole is in the same shape or better than it was at the beginning of last year. The beginning we had Colon, Buehrle, Wright, Garland, and Loaiza. This year we have Buehrle, Loaiza, Garland, Shoenweis?, Cotts?. I think you still have the same question marks as last year. Who had a better year? Colon in 2002 or Loaiza in 2003? IP does not always equal a good pitcher. I don't consider that a good basis for an argument. I think there are a number of pitchers that will be able to eat up Gordon's innings. Has Gordon put 2 back to back good years together since surgery? Takatsu, Politte, Wright, Grilli, and maybe even Koch should fill in and eat up Gordon's innings. I remember at the beginning of last year we were not expecting much out of Gordon and a lot of people thought that Colon was breaking down because of the diminishing strikeouts and eating his way out of the league. Nothing is for certain. I am just taking a positive approach and I think there is a lot more to like about our club than dislike. I think we have a better overall team heading into this year than last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Don't care about the next 4 years.. I like to take things 1 year at a time. Bottome line.. he WILL be missed unless he's replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Don't care about the next 4 years.. I like to take things 1 year at a time. Bottome line.. he WILL be missed unless he's replaced. I respect your opinion and you are correct assuming that he can continue to pitch like he has in the past. I have my doubts that he will continue at that pace. If he does not have a year like we have become used to seeing from him then he will most definately not be missed. It is all a matter of what you expect out of him this year. I don't expect him to be Bartolo Colon of the past, I only see him with way too much mileage and very overweight. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I'm not assuming future anything. Colon pitched 242 innings last year.. did the Sox replace him with someone that can pitch those innings this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickman Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I'm not assuming future anything. Colon pitched 242 innings last year.. did the Sox replace him with someone that can pitch those innings this year? Truly a great point. The answer is no therefore we are a wrse team than last year. No doubt we got worse. We didn't win last year and we won't win this year, and before all of you call me negative, just think about it for a minute, and put down the black Kool aide. We need help and we will need it soon. A trade will need to take place. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 I'm not assuming future anything. Colon pitched 242 innings last year.. did the Sox replace him with someone that can pitch those innings this year? You are assuming that Colon would be able to pitch that many innings this year, correct? If not then what are you basing this argument on that Colon will be missed? Based on last year? Ok well we will replace his inning with Loaiza's, he pitched 226. Were you expecting that from him last year? I don't think so. Point is someone will step up. Who? I don't know. Just like last year, who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Apparently, the White Sox will release this tomorrow, out 12 months, no Esteban Loiaza story this year. This is bad news I have read the Chicago papers today, and not seen a word about this, as well as did some internet surfing. Where did you hear this from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Truly a great point. The answer is no therefore we are a wrse team than last year. No doubt we got worse. We didn't win last year and we won't win this year, and before all of you call me negative, just think about it for a minute, and put down the black Kool aide. We need help and we will need it soon. A trade will need to take place. That's it. based on what? Colon being off the team? I have a hard time believing that a # starting pitcher that only won 15 games means that much between a winning and losing team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Umm.. no. We had a pitcher last season who pitched 242 innings. He is no longer with us. We have not brought on board anyone who shows the potential to replace those innings. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. Maybe take Colon totally out of the picture. We lost an ace calibur arm. We have not replaced that arm. Where's the confusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickman Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 You are assuming that Colon would be able to pitch that many innings this year, correct? If not then what are you basing this argument on that Colon will be missed? Based on last year? Ok well we will replace his inning with Loaiza's, he pitched 226. Were you expecting that from him last year? I don't think so. Point is someone will step up. Who? I don't know. Just like last year, who knows. Just like in years past someone has always stepped up right? and we win all the time. Steff's point is not many pitchers eat up innings like that. Its good, it saves the pen even if the record was not great. So the question will be who will step up and give us 210 innings to replace bartolo? Will it be Schoney? Wright? Rauch? Any of the othr ove rhte hill broken down pieces of s*** that we signed for the minimum? I think not, therefore as I stated before a trade will need to take place...and it will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Truly a great point. The answer is no therefore we are a wrse team than last year. No doubt we got worse. We didn't win last year and we won't win this year, and before all of you call me negative, just think about it for a minute, and put down the black Kool aide. We need help and we will need it soon. A trade will need to take place. That's it. Not negative at all. Realistic. And thank you for calling my point "great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickman Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Umm.. no. We had a pitcher last season who pitched 242 innings. He is no longer with us. We have not brought on board anyone who shows the potential to replace those innings. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. Maybe take Colon totally out of the picture. We lost an ace calibur arm. We have not replaced that arm. Where's the confusion? Sometimes I feel I am the oldest person on this board. Is this the timberlake, spears board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Sometimes I feel I am the oldest person on this board. Is this the timberlake, spears board? Oh Lord.. don't get me started.... :headshake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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