sox4lifeinPA Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Who knows, could be. Or not. And don't worry about my arrogance, I'll have a coupla (I may be off by a few here) eternities roasting in Hell to regret it. who knows, there may be hope for you yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 sure, if you ignore what I just posted. The problem is that we stand from our own perspective. I did read through everything you posted, didn't ignore it, and 'choice' vs. 'free will' is a semantic argument by definition. Furthermore, reading the chapters from Ephesians and Romans that you posted verses ffrom purporting to show predestination in the bible is still more semantics. In those chapters, the "Predestined" ones are all of mankind which would let the Spirit lead them. That is not anything akin predeterminiation in the Calvinist sense or in the Catholic sense or in the 12 Tribes of Israel sense. It's the opposite. It is affirnation of the central belief that Jesus died for the benefit of all man, not just for some, and it is (drum roll) those who FREELY CHOOSE to be led by the Spirit that will reap the rewards. There's some good stuff in there, to be sure. Christianity is easily in my top 10 favorite world religions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 who knows, there may be hope for you yet. Don't pray for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I did read through everything you posted, didn't ignore it, and 'choice' vs. 'free will' is a semantic argument by definition. Furthermore, reading the chapters from Ephesians and Romans that you posted verses ffrom purporting to show predestination in the bible is still more semantics. In those chapters, the "Predestined" ones are all of mankind which would let the Spirit lead them. That is not anything akin predeterminiation in the Calvinist sense or in the Catholic sense or in the 12 Tribes of Israel sense. It's the opposite. It is affirnation of the central belief that Jesus died for the benefit of all man, not just for some, and it is (drum roll) those who FREELY CHOOSE to be led by the Spirit that will reap the rewards. There's some good stuff in there, to be sure. Christianity is easily in my top 10 favorite world religions. well said...I just think you're looking for what you want to see, and I'm looking for what I want to see. once again if you want to hear some preaching...that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 One cannot assemble their code of laws, morals, and ability to discern from right and wrong by chance. Correct. They use reason...or in some cases, blind allegiance to some standard. No supernatural forces required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 first of all, it's silly for anyone to not believe in a higher power of some sort One cannot assemble their code of laws, morals, and ability to discern from right and wrong by chance. So says you. That higher power could be the omni-everything Chance. Too bad She probably foresaken us. Damn Her. In fact, if there's not ultimate authority/good, than there's no ultimate negative and killing another person is no more a wrong than eating a bag of dorritos. It's all relative...which is crap. Killing another person is wrong. Our arbitrary laws and subjective morality say so. Maybe, ultimately, there is no difference bewteen the two. Do you claim to know the essence and the intent of the Ultimate? That would be very arrogant. to your question: The mere idea that I or anyone could fully comprehend the complexities of the ultimate authority, creator, and summation of all good, isn't arrogant? you're a smart guy, Brando, but no single person can fully comprehend every detail of natural HUMAN capacity, so how then, could a single person fully comprehend the supernatural and metaphysical? I never claim to fully comprehend anything. I simply suggested you preface the logical gymnastics with "according to my personal belief". Because it's all that it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 You have some whiz-bang tautology going on here, PA! first of all, it's silly for anyone to not believe in a higher power of some sort. That's an asinine statement well beneath your thought capacity. Time and again, the simplest explanations are shown to be the most likely correct ones for natural phenomena. In this case, the natural phenomena being Life, the Universe, and Everything, the simplest explanation is most certainly NOT a Divine Agent without beginning or end who is omnipotent yet spends his time fretting over us and even walked among us and died for us in the form of Jesus. Nice, comforting, poetic, but hardly the best-fit line connecting all the points. Lose the Divine agent. Replace it with 14 billion years of cosmic evolution, 5-6 billion years of terran physical evolution, 4+ billion years of terran organic evolution occurring in every single on of trillions upon trillions of imperfectly replicating germ cells that represent the total reproductive capacity of the Earth's inhabitants over time. NOW you have a non-mystical, testable, theory that is far simpler than the need to invoke a Divine Hand. One cannot assemble their code of laws, morals, and ability to discern from right and wrong by chance. In fact, if there's not ultimate authority/good, than there's no ultimate negative and killing another person is no more a wrong than eating a bag of dorritos. It's all relative...which is crap. THAT STATEMENT is crap. It's Sunday school scare tactics, God's Eternal Carrot or Stick, and it best dropped as a bad habit. The laws of man and the societal mores of man can exist in the absence of Divine consequence. Love your neighbor because that's how you want to be treated, not because it'll cost you you soul if you don't. It's not all relative. It's merely bounded by the finite nature of our lives and the lives of those we influence. "You're only dancing on this Earth for a short while," said the wise Mr. Stevens. If there is no heaven, the take home message is to get hopping and make it here on Earth. no single person can fully comprehend every detail of natural HUMAN capacity, so how then, could a single person fully comprehend the supernatural and metaphysical? We can't, so why spin your wheels? Why do nations kill and die over their interpretations of a Divine Will that may or may not exist and can never be comprehended at any rate. No human institution has resulted in more bloodshed than religion and the differing interpretations of His Will. Is that because God knows might makes right and in the end we'll all see who backed the right horse? Is it because God gets a kick out of it. Or could it be it's because there's nobody at the wheel? The smart money is on number three. Be careful out there. I've lost three good friends to rabid Christianity in the last 15 years. All of them good people beforehand too, none of them hit rock-bottom before they got saved. But I dearly miss them and I miss the original, critical thought they used to bring into the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 well, to spare you the redundancies, I'll stop responding now. This discussion can't continue if common ground isn't laid. People inheirently are sinful and men are power hungry. Put them in unchecked positions of leadership in the church, and yes, they'll fail every time....sometimes resulting in personal destruction, sometimes resulting in mass human destruction. that's an old arguement with little meaning. "Be careful out there. I've lost three good friends to rabid Christianity in the last 15 years" I'm sure they're quite satisfied in their unoriginal, critically-devoid lives. I know I am. now back to my scare tactics headquarters.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 I'm sure they're quite satisfied in their unoriginal, critically-devoid lives. I know I am welcome to da club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 This discussion can't continue if common ground isn't laid. Anyone remember the name of the Polish philosopher who said that you can only effectively argue with a person with whom you're in fundamental agreement or at least share a common premise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 well sorry. i have none people that have been jewish and not of that religon. do a search for it on yahoo, google etc. you will see. everyone just hates them so they are not classified has one. Huh???? Are you saying that you know Jewish people that practice religions other than Judaism? If that's the case, then they are not Jewish! BTW, invest in a spellchecker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 I missed it too the first time around where is Israel4Life when we need him? I'm here, laughing!!! I am a Polish, Jew Lawyer! Triple-whammy!!! BTW...my race is Polish, not Jewish!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Huh???? Are you saying that you know Jewish people that practice religions other than Judaism? If that's the case, then they are not Jewish! BTW, invest in a spellchecker! Finally something that I agree with. Israeli does not necesarily equal Jewish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Finally something that I agree with. Israeli does not necesarily equal Jewish. I said that 10 pages ago.... :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 I said that 10 pages ago.... :headshake I thought someone did, but since it was brought up again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 exactly, The point isn't who killed Him, but that He died. if we start arguing about who is responsible and for what reasons then you missed the point of the whole thing. This is very close to my opinion on the Mel Gibson movie controversy. As a Jew, I feel that even IF Jews were responsible for Jesus's death, you have to remember, that was 2000 years ago! To the best of my knowlewdge, Jesus started saying things that were counter to Jewish practices, and the Jewish leaders felt they had to stop him from doing so. History is full of instances wherein people were killed because their ideas were seen as counter to tose of others, i.e the "witches" at Salem. You'd like to think that we have evolved from this way of thinking...(too bad that there are Radical Muslims who haven't!!!) The greatest fear that I, as a Jew, have from the Gibson movie, is that people who are already anti-Semitic will be even more so after seeing it, and that it will enflame more hatred towards Jews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Are you saying that you know Jewish people that practice religions other than Judaism? Of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 The greatest fear that I, as a Jew, have from the Gibson movie, is that people who are already anti-Semitic will be even more so after seeing it, and that it will enflame more hatred towards Jews. Don't worry, it looks like Mel did some editing -- it may not be historically accurate, but the AS edge has likely been dulled. We'll see. Speaking of propaganda....have you SEEN some of the sick s*** Palestinian filmamakers, both at home and abroad, are making and winning awards for? TotW pales in comparison. :puke :puke :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 I recall seeing flyers for them, but I never had a chance to check them out, actually. Good stuff? Very good stuff. "Laughter" is good first song to last. I heard a bit of their stuff later than that album and wasn't nearly as good, but that album is a must listen, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 However, when all one could come up with is "But this was Jesus!" while, say, skimming through Crossand's engrossing research, I get an uneasy feeling. Total faith is great and all, but when things are passed off as fact in a secular literalist sense, I dunno.... And it's not as if Bob is a hard-line Christian. That threw me off a bit. I don't think you need to be a hard-line Christian to believe that Jesus worked miracles. The basic foundation of Christianity is that Jesus was the Son of God, no? Being the Son of God, you cannot scientifically "prove" that he could not do anything. You cannot state scientifically and unequivocably that Jesus could not have walked on water or raised the dead. Why not? Because he was the Son of God. If Christians believe that He did the impossible by rising from the dead three days after being crucified, walking on water pales in comparison. If you want to talk about literary proof, I'll listen. I believe that Jesus was in fact born in Nazareth and early Christian writers had him born in Bethlehem to add weight to his being the Messiah. But that has nothing to do with what Jesus could or could not do, but with other people did. This isn't hard-line Christianity, just plain old Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Looks like they're running trailers for it now. Anyone care to predict what the first 3-day BO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Looks like they're running trailers for it now. Anyone care to predict what the first 3-day BO? HUGE!!!! They're selling tickets for it outside the cafeteria at my school and busing kids tot he theaters...I think it will be bigger than any movie we've ever seen open (at least in my 21 years...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Looks like they're running trailers for it now. Anyone care to predict what the first 3-day BO? 5 day really if you include the weekend. I would guess at least 50 million for the 5 day period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Looks like they're running trailers for it now. Anyone care to predict what the first 3-day BO? If presales count in that total, it could come near $75 million I'd guess. The thing is, with a mid-week opening on Ash Wed, there is not a full weekend in that first three day box office take. It certainly will be up there after the weekend, although in th elonger term it will be unlike the big-budget Matrix and LOTR record-setters because I don't thing there will be people seeing it 3 and 4 times. It sounds a little too visceral to draw a big repeat crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 The irony in the statement "you got it right" from someone who was not there and is taking the words of the side they choose to believe as gospel (no pun intended...) That's all. Climb back on your bibles.. I felt compelled to say this again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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