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the "not in our name" group


baggio202

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this group took out a letter innewspapers around the country...endorsed by the usual lefties..jesse jackson , charlie sheen , john and joan cusack , al sharpton , alec baldwin ..even a few congressman that i cant recall their names right now..the usual anti republican crowd...

 

i expected this letter to contain the usual anti bush anti republican (you know -whatever a republican wants to do it must be wrong - so im automatically against it without even checking the facts)but this letter and the interview i saw on foxnews with their spokesperson(some 20 year old punk who was going to give bill oreilly a history lesson...lmao!!) has gone past everything this crowd has ever endorsed before to my knowledge..

 

the key quote , which prompted orielly to have this group on his show was.."we shook our heads at the terrible carnage (911) as we recalled similiar scenes in the gulf war and panama"...

 

in the interview orielly got this kid to say some of the most outragous things ive ever heard on this subject...this kid, representing this group , said the "american governemnt are terrorist"..."that american is responsible for the 200,00 civilian death in iraq during the gulf war and the deaths of over 500,000 children starving to death there since"....when asked by orielly isnt saddam responsible for that he said no...we were because we went into iraq which was a terrorist act...

 

orielly asked him about saddam gassing the kurds during the iraq -iran war and this kid doubted it ever happened..i gbuess saddam is a really good guy huh???

 

but when orielly brought up milosivec and asked where this group was when clinton went into yugoslavia the kid had no answer..didnt want to talk about that because it wasnt 'rellevent"..lmao...

 

this borders on some of the most bizarre stuff ive ever heard...for the college age kids that post here..is this the crap our universities are teaching??..that the US is a terrorist nation??...only when a repblican is in office of course :angry: that f***er really pissed me off....this is a slap in the face to those who lost loved ones in 911

 

im not posting the link to this website because it disgusts me...if you wanna set it for yourself go to foxnews and click on bill orielly..they have a link and a section where you can respond to this group and tell them what you think...even if you agree with them...

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this group took out a letter innewspapers around the country...endorsed by the usual lefties..jesse jackson , charlie sheen , john and joan cusack , al sharpton , alec baldwin ..even a few congressman that i cant recall their names right now..the usual anti republican crowd...

 

i expected this letter to contain the usual anti bush anti republican (you know -whatever a republican wants to do it must be wrong - so im automatically against it without even checking the facts)but this letter and the interview i saw on foxnews with their spokesperson(some 20 year old punk who was going to give bill oreilly a history lesson...lmao!!) has gone past everything this crowd has ever endorsed before to my knowledge..

 

the key quote , which prompted orielly to have this group on his show was.."we shook our heads at the terrible carnage (911) as we recalled similiar scenes in the gulf war and panama"...

 

in the interview orielly got this kid to say some of the most outragous things ive ever heard on this subject...this kid, representing this group , said the "american governemnt are terrorist"..."that american is responsible for the 200,00 civilian death in iraq during the gulf war and the deaths of over 500,000 children starving to death there since"....when asked by orielly isnt saddam responsible for that he said no...we were because we went into iraq which was a terrorist act...

 

orielly asked him about saddam gassing the kurds during the iraq -iran war and this kid doubted it ever happened..i gbuess saddam is a really good guy huh???

 

but when orielly brought up milosivec and asked where this group was when clinton went into yugoslavia the kid had no answer..didnt want to talk about that because it wasnt 'rellevent"..lmao...

 

this borders on some of the most bizarre stuff ive ever heard...for the college age kids that post here..is this the crap our universities are teaching??..that the US is a terrorist nation??...only when a repblican is in office of course :angry: that f***er really pissed me off....this is a slap in the face to those who lost loved ones in 911

 

im not posting the link to this website because it disgusts me...if you wanna set it for yourself go to foxnews and click on bill orielly..they have a link and a section where you can respond to this group and tell them what you think...even if you agree with them...

This is EXACTLY the crap our universities are teaching. Along with our elementary, middle and high schools as well. Between the liberally slanted education or kids are getting, and the liberally slanted media they are bombarded with, it's amazing that so many of them actually grow up to realize that they have been fed crap their whole lives and then start voting for conservative thinking candidates.

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There are good, decent, intelligent people who oppose the policies of George Bush and are emphatically against war with Iraq. I don't vilify these people. What incenses me is the mindless criticism that baggio described the young man making on Fox. As far as our educational institutions go, in addition to raising three kids I have first hand knowledge. I was a college dropout as a young man and decided to try and make up for my mistakes as an adult. I got one then a second undergraduate degree. I passed my teachers certificate tests (Praxis) with above average to excellent scores. There are four seperate tests. Then I did some subbing and was horrified at what I saw. The standards have been greatly lowered, even in the supposedly better suburban schools. There are many intelligent hard working teachers, but too many are barely literate themselves and greatly influenced by the NEA/local union mentality. I remember one social studies teacher (that's my area of certification) who didn't even know who Benjamin Netanyahu was. That school district would let me sub but wouldn't even CONSIDER me for an interview. Undeterred I went and got a Masters, not in education, but in a real subject. Maybe I could teach at the junior college or college level, I reasoned. Wrong! I was tied for first place with three others in a group of 29. The other three got special mention on their diplomas and transcripts. I got nothing. I was not invited to be a part of the PHD program. Why? I guess because I was outspoken, a discussion leader and definitely not a liberal. Hell, my politics are more quirky than anything else, although I have given up on othodox liberalism and the Democratic party for about 30 years now. Anyway, all you parents and kids out there are safe from me. I will probably never teach at any level anywhere. This concludes my rant for the day. :P

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this group took out a letter innewspapers around the country...endorsed by the usual lefties..jesse jackson , charlie sheen , john and joan cusack , al sharpton , alec baldwin ..even a few congressman that i cant recall their names right now..the usual anti republican crowd...

 

i expected this letter to contain the usual anti bush anti republican (you know -whatever a republican wants to do it must be wrong - so im automatically against it without even checking the facts)but this letter and the interview i saw on foxnews with their spokesperson(some 20 year old punk who was going to give bill oreilly a history lesson...lmao!!) has gone past everything this crowd has ever endorsed before to my knowledge..

 

the key quote , which prompted orielly to have this group on his show was.."we shook our heads at the terrible carnage (911) as we recalled similiar scenes in the gulf war and panama"...

 

in the interview orielly got this kid to say some of the most outragous things ive ever heard on this subject...this kid, representing this group , said the "american governemnt are terrorist"..."that american is responsible for the 200,00 civilian death in iraq during the gulf war and the deaths of over 500,000 children starving to death there since"....when asked by orielly isnt saddam responsible for that he said no...we were because we went into iraq which was a terrorist act...

 

orielly asked him about saddam gassing the kurds during the iraq -iran war and this kid doubted it ever happened..i gbuess saddam is a really good guy huh???

 

but when orielly brought up milosivec and asked where this group was when clinton went into yugoslavia the kid had no answer..didnt want to talk about that because it wasnt 'rellevent"..lmao...

 

this borders on some of the most bizarre stuff ive ever heard...for the college age kids that post here..is this the crap our universities are teaching??..that the US is a terrorist nation??...only when a repblican is in office of course :angry: that f***er really pissed me off....this is a slap in the face to those who lost loved ones in 911

 

im not posting the link to this website because it disgusts me...if you wanna set it for yourself go to foxnews and click on bill orielly..they have a link and a section where you can respond to this group and tell them what you think...even if you agree with them...

I think we all know that Bill O'Reilly is a f***ing schmuck. And if you think it is only Democrats that are questioning the possibility of the war on Iraq, check out Republican representative Ron Paul's questions that he raised during the debates.

 

HERE THEY ARE:

Is it not true that the reason we did not bomb the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War was because we knew they could retaliate?

 

Is it not also true that we are willing to bomb Iraq now because we know it cannot retaliate- which just confirms that there is no real threat?

 

Is it not true that those who argue that even with inspections we cannot be sure that Hussein might be hiding weapons, at the same time imply that we can be more sure that weapons exist in the absence of inspections?

 

Is it not true that the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency was able to complete its yearly verification mission to Iraq just this year with Iraqi cooperation?

 

Is it not true that the intelligence community has been unable to develop a case tying Iraq to global terrorism at all, much less the attacks on the United States last year? Does anyone remember that 15 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia and that none came from Iraq?

 

Was former CIA counter-terrorism chief Vincent Cannistraro wrong when he recently said there is no confirmed evidence of Iraq’s links to terrorism?

 

Is it not true that the CIA has concluded there is no evidence that a Prague meeting between 9/11 hijacker Atta and Iraqi intelligence took place?

 

Is it not true that northern Iraq, where the administration claimed al-Qaeda were hiding out, is in the control of our "allies," the Kurds?

 

Is it not true that the vast majority of al-Qaeda leaders who escaped appear to have safely made their way to Pakistan, another of our so-called allies?

 

Has anyone noticed that Afghanistan is rapidly sinking into total chaos, with bombings and assassinations becoming daily occurrences; and that according to a recent UN report the al-Qaeda "is, by all accounts, alive and well and poised to strike again, how, when and where it chooses"

 

Why are we taking precious military and intelligence resources away from tracking down those who did attack the United States- and who may again attack the United States- and using them to invade countries that have not attacked the United States?

 

Would an attack on Iraq not just confirm the Arab world's worst suspicions about the US- and isn't this what bin Laden wanted?

 

How can Hussein be compared to Hitler when he has no navy or air force, and now has an army 1/5 the size of twelve years ago, which even then proved totally inept at defending the country?

 

Is it not true that the constitutional power to declare war is exclusively that of the Congress? Should presidents, contrary to the Constitution, allow Congress to concur only when pressured by public opinion? Are presidents permitted to rely on the UN for permission to go to war?

 

Are you aware of a Pentagon report studying charges that thousands of Kurds in one village were gassed by the Iraqis, which found no conclusive evidence that Iraq was responsible, that Iran occupied the very city involved, and that evidence indicated the type of gas used was more likely controlled by Iran not Iraq?

 

Is it not true that anywhere between 100,000 and 300,000 US soldiers have suffered from Persian Gulf War syndrome from the first Gulf War, and that thousands may have died?

 

Are we prepared for possibly thousands of American casualties in a war against a country that does not have the capacity to attack the United States?

 

Are we willing to bear the economic burden of a 100 billion dollar war against Iraq, with oil prices expected to skyrocket and further rattle an already shaky American economy? How about an estimated 30 years occupation of Iraq that some have deemed necessary to "build democracy" there?

 

Iraq’s alleged violations of UN resolutions are given as reason to initiate an attack, yet is it not true that hundreds of UN Resolutions have been ignored by various countries without penalty?

 

Did former President Bush not cite the UN Resolution of 1990 as the reason he could not march into Baghdad, while supporters of a new attack assert that it is the very reason we can march into Baghdad?

 

Is it not true that, contrary to current claims, the no-fly zones were set up by Britain and the United States without specific approval from the United Nations?

 

If we claim membership in the international community and conform to its rules only when it pleases us, does this not serve to undermine our position, directing animosity toward us by both friend and foe?

 

How can our declared goal of bringing democracy to Iraq be believable when we prop up dictators throughout the Middle East and support military tyrants like Musharaf in Pakistan, who overthrew a democratically-elected president?

 

Are you familiar with the 1994 Senate Hearings that revealed the U.S. knowingly supplied chemical and biological materials to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war and as late as 1992- including after the alleged Iraqi gas attack on a Kurdish village?

 

Did we not assist Saddam Hussein’s rise to power by supporting and encouraging his invasion of Iran? Is it honest to criticize Saddam now for his invasion of Iran, which at the time we actively supported?

 

Is it not true that preventive war is synonymous with an act of aggression, and has never been considered a moral or legitimate US policy?

 

Why do the oil company executives strongly support this war if oil is not the real reason we plan to take over Iraq?

 

Why is it that those who never wore a uniform and are confident that they won’t have to personally fight this war are more anxious for this war than our generals?

 

What is the moral argument for attacking a nation that has not initiated aggression against us and could not if it wanted?

 

Where does the Constitution grant us permission to wage war for any reason other than self-defense?

 

Is it not true that a war against Iraq rejects the sentiments of the time-honored Treaty of Westphalia, nearly 400 years ago, that countries should never go into another for the purpose of regime change?

 

Is it not true that the more civilized a society is, the less likely disagreements will be settled by war?

 

Is it not true that since World War II Congress has not declared war and- not coincidentally- we have not since then had a clear-cut victory?

 

Is it not true that Pakistan, especially through its intelligence services, was an active supporter and key organizer of the Taliban?

 

Why don't those who want war bring a formal declaration of war resolution to the floor of Congress?

 

-----

Baggs, did you know that there is a group of 9-11 family members that lost loved ones who have united in a group working to prevent the Bush administration from using their dead family members to justify the USA Patriot Act, a war in Iraq, etc. because they don't see how Iraq played any role in 9-11 since they didn't.

 

I did watch that "Not In Our Name" guy talk to Bill O'Reilly and Bill twisted his words like a motherf***er. He did not allow the guy to tell the people about how we bombed refigeration plants, water purification plants and other non-military targets. This has caused cholera and other diseases that they had gotten rid of because the U.S. sanctions will not allow for Iraqis to get the materials to fix these plants. Did you also know that nearly every day we have been flying bombers over Iraq and bombing Iraqi places on a consistant basis since 1991. The sanctions (which don't allow dolls in Iraq, for instance....Dolls! DOLLS! What the f*** does Saddam care about dolls?) and the constant U.S. bombings of Iraq that have killed numerous people (the numbers are in the hundreds of thousands) from malnutrition and the diseases that the U.S. caused by destroying water purification plants so that little children can't even get pure drinking water. The U.N. has had the most resignations in protest of the U.S. "terrorist" bombing in Iraq in the history of the U.N. That is what the United States is responsible for over there. And yes, Saddam did gas the Kurds...but too bad that he got a lot of the chemical and biological weapons from U.S. corporations (check the PETA f***ing Sucks thread for the names of the corporations because I already posted them in there.) Saddam is indeed a threat, but I don't think that bombing communities will kill him. We tried that in 1991 and it didn't work.

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This is EXACTLY the crap our universities are teaching. Along with our elementary, middle and high schools as well.  Between the liberally slanted education or kids are getting, and the liberally slanted media they are bombarded with, it's amazing that so many of them actually grow up to realize that they have been fed crap their whole lives and then start voting for conservative thinking candidates.

Liberally slanted education? LMFAO!

In my Educational Policy Studies course, we just read numerous documents about college professors being fired.....FIRED for asking questions like "Why do the terrorists hate us so much?" and saying stuff like "They hate us because we don't know why they hate us."

 

I hate all forms of violence...the Clinton bombings in Yugoslavia, the first Gulf War, the upcoming Gulf War part II. I have learned stuff outside of school.....Howard Zinn, emeritus professor at Boston University...William Blum, former member of the State Department...Dr. James Loewen....these men and others know what they are talking about and can document their evidence.

 

And liberal media? You just about made me wet my pants laughing...that's a good one. General Electric owns NBC. They also own a weapons manufacturing plant...so they aren't going to tell about the anti-war movement increasing because that could hurt their weapons sales. Large conglomerate corporations that donate to conservative regimes (www.opensecrets.org)...so explain to me how they are liberally slanted again? Or is this just like the Jewish conspiracy where the Jews control all the money in the entire world and control all the banking systems so you can have a reason to justify your hatred?

 

I suggest for everybody to read "It's a Free Country". It is a collection of essays by both conservatives and liberals and how they fear that the War on Terrorism is being used to limit our civil liberties...so the hatred of Dubya Bush's actions is not just a partisan thing.

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this group took out a letter innewspapers around the country...endorsed by the usual lefties..jesse jackson , charlie sheen , john and joan cusack , al sharpton , alec baldwin ..even a few congressman that i cant recall their names right now..the usual anti republican crowd...

 

i expected this letter to contain the usual anti bush anti republican (you know -whatever a republican wants to do it must be wrong - so im automatically against it without even checking the facts)but this letter and the interview i saw on foxnews with their spokesperson(some 20 year old punk who was going to give bill oreilly a history lesson...lmao!!) has gone past everything this crowd has ever endorsed before to my knowledge..

 

the key quote , which prompted orielly to have this group on his show was.."we shook our heads at the terrible carnage (911) as we recalled similiar scenes in the gulf war and panama"...

 

in the interview orielly got this kid to say some of the most outragous things ive ever heard on this subject...this kid, representing this group , said the "american governemnt are terrorist"..."that american is responsible for the 200,00 civilian death in iraq during the gulf war and the deaths of over 500,000 children starving to death there since"....when asked by orielly isnt saddam responsible for that he said no...we were because we went into iraq which was a terrorist act...

 

orielly asked him about saddam gassing the kurds during the iraq -iran war and this kid doubted it ever happened..i gbuess saddam is a really good guy huh???

 

but when orielly brought up milosivec and asked where this group was when clinton went into yugoslavia the kid had no answer..didnt want to talk about that because it wasnt 'rellevent"..lmao...

 

this borders on some of the most bizarre stuff ive ever heard...for the college age kids that post here..is this the crap our universities are teaching??..that the US is a terrorist nation??...only when a repblican is in office of course :angry: that f***er really pissed me off....this is a slap in the face to those who lost loved ones in 911

 

im not posting the link to this website because it disgusts me...if you wanna set it for yourself go to foxnews and click on bill orielly..they have a link and a section where you can respond to this group and tell them what you think...even if you agree with them...

And if Bill is so great, then how come he won't read or respond to any of my e-mails? (and yes, I have read his book "No Spin Zone" and it was nearly just like "Raising PG Kids In an X Rated Society" by censorship Nazi Tipper Gore) I've e-mailed him a few times and don't get anything....(wasn't expecting to either :rolleyes: )

 

Don't get me wrong, I hate the Democrats too. With Joe Lieberman being in cahoots with Pat Robertson and the Christian Right, his friendship with Bush I's drug czar who was quoted as saying that we should "lock up all African Americans in Washington DC on barges in the Potomac" in order to fight drugs...the fact that Joe is on the Parents' Television Council who has gotten shows like Family Guy taken off the air (note: L. Brent Bozell III, the leader of the group, his father was part of the Goldwater campaign and was all for nuking the Russians....What a nice Christian family) And Lieberman is also part of the PMRC which has gotten the "Parental Advisory" labels on albums and is looking to ban and censor even more albums (like Alanis Morrisette...she swears on her albums and gets no sticker...so she gets carried by Wal-Mart but black rappers swear and get a sticker and don't get carried). Bill Clinton was the best Republican president we ever had with the passage of NAFTA, GATT, and my favorite....the bombing of Sudanese pharmaceudical plants while also bombing Serbian trains and the occassional Chinese Embassy. ;)

And Al Gore...the guy is a fascist schmuck too if he can stay married to that censoring b****, Tipper and get her Congressional hearings about music and how Marilyn Manson needs to be banned for causing Columbine (my question is...if those 2 kids who committed Columbine loved Manson so much...why didn't they wait 5 days and go see his live show when he was playing in Denver?)

All the political parties here are becoming homogenized. They are all pro-killing people (i.e. either fetuses or thru the use of the death penalty), they are all pro-WTO, they are all pro-GATT, they are all for Social Security and they all get money from the same PAC contributors. Where is the choice? It's a two-party state masquerading as a 1 party state. We get MTv telling us how to be teenagers, the news telling us one side of the story and hiding negative stories because they are owned by corporations, we have unsafe genetic mutations being put in our food supply thru genetic engineering, we have not ratified CEDAW (a U.N. declaration that countries that sign on will attempt to better the rights and social condition of women....only the U.S., Iraq, and Afghanistan have not signed)....and what are we worried about????? A third world nation that doesn't have the capacity to hurt us if it even wanted to. How about hunting down Osama bin Laden and capturing him...

 

Or even better how about getting corporations like Halliburton (yes, THAT Halliburton that Dick Cheney used to be the CEO of) and get on their case for selling Iraq pulse generators in 2001 that have the capability to be used to detonate nuclear devices, so IF Iraq has them, the US gave them the means to detonate them! How f***ing brilliant!......why aren't the news sources covering that?!

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Guest hotsoxchick1
nomorewarorg.jpg

 

A little food for thought for the Hawks on this board.

that food for thought is just a tiny snack compared to the meal im willing to eat up to get saddam out of power.........

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Universities have way too much bias when they teach. I am always arguing with my teachers at my college, although I have had some that were conservative, many of them are very liberal and the flaw is, they don't preach there views as a view, they say them as part of the lesson and put them on the test.

 

Thats whats wrong with the schooling system. There is no way to fix it though, because Teachers can't get fired unless they have sexual actions with a student. Tenure and there union is a big part of what is screwing up the educational system.

 

Yes, this sytem is way better then many countries have, but you can't stop there. There are way too many teachers that don't know anything. There are also plenty that do know what they are talking about, but simply can't teach and then there are those that are good teachers.

 

Still, its hard to get good teachers when most of them don't get the pay they want.

 

Either way, their is a big reason most young people think different then older people and its because they don't have the life experience so they just believe what they get told and don't know better. I always question stuff, even if its a conservative comment, because I like to find out for myself whether it makes sense.

 

I don't know as much in politics as some of you. I do know that we have had sanctions on Iraq and I guess you can blame us for all those deaths, but in all honesty, whose fault is it? It isn't the US's fault. It is Saddams fault. He went in and attacked Kuwait (Because Kuwait was stealing oil from the neutral territory) but they didn't stop there. Many innocent were murdered because of Saddam, not because of the US. I know a lot of people who are from Iraq and have fled there and they will tell you what a slimeball Saddam is and how many people he's killed. Surprisingly they are some of the biggest supporters for war in Iraq and its because they don't want to see there family members have to continue to live under Saddams rule.

 

Yes, we were allies with him once, but it was to stop the Kurds (I may be wrong on the name) who were trying to take over the world in 78 or 79. I'm going off memory for this, and since this is before I was born, I could be off. The Kurds were going to start by trying to take over the middle east and they felt there religion was the ultimate. We had to team up with one evil man Saddam, to stop an even worse thing. Kuwait also supproted Saddam with money, but after the war they asked for the money back and that mixed with the stealing of oil was a major reason Iraq invaded Kuwait, from what I understand.

 

Just because we were once allies with him, doesn't mean we made a mistake having him fight for us, because it did prevent the Kurds from trying to take over the world.

 

After dessert storm the reason they left Saddam in power was because they thought there was too much instability in the middle east or something along these lines to the point that it could turn into a huge disaster for the entire middle east, since its so volatile. Once again, I may be off on this, but I think my facts were right.

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Jason my friend, I am not sure what you referring to in your post, the Kurds never tried to take over the world in any way shape or form - the Kurdish population is scattered among several countries, inclluding Iraq and Turkey, and in those countries their culture has been repressed by law.

 

And as I recall 1978-79, the only thing of note those years as it pertains to this diuscussion was perhaps the Iranian revolution. In the midst of those Cold War years, no one was trying to take over the world. So I am at a real loss to know what you are making reference to.

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In an attempt to counter my roomate's flood of listing poignant questions and attempting to use them as argument, I will attempt to address some of these issues.

 

The threat of Iraq: Their standing army is about 375,000 with about 400,000 more in reserve: 1/3 the size of the army of Gulf War I in 1991. The army is expected to be highly untrained with questionable loyalties. With the rest of their forces still recovering from the war, they have only about 2200 tanks and 200 operational aircraft, many of which are outdated or don't have enough experienced people to operate them.

 

In essence they are wounded, bitter yet still the largest threat by far in the Middle East. They have also shown to be resilient and able to resort to outlawed tactics to gain an advantage like in the Iran-Iraq War. Used canisters of mustard and Tabun gas were found in the battlefields not to mention the scores of Iranian soldiers afflicted by severe chemical traumas. For those who don't know, Tabun gas is quite similar to the sarin gas used in the Tokyo subways not too many years ago. It is just much more lethal. About 1/100 of a grain (of sand size) is all that is necessary to result in severe convulsions, frothing at the mouth, and death in about 10 minutes.

 

The inspections: So they basically have found nothing. What reason is there to proceed? Well Iraqi disarmament had gone well throughout most of the mid 90's until 1998 when Iraq put an abrupt stop to the inspections. The inspectors were accused of espionage by the Iraqi's and left still in good faith that disarmament was about 95% completed. The problem is whether or not Iraq stopped manufacturing the agents used in these weapons.

 

About 20 years ago, Iraq was producing 2,000 tons of mustard agents per year while more plants were being constructed. They were also capable of producing about 1,000 tons of the deadlier nerve agents. Nerve agents like the Nazis' sarin or its more easily mass-producable brothers. The numerous plants have since been built but since been converted to producing agents permissable by the UN. This was the last word as of four years ago when the inspections stopped. The switching of chemical processes in a plant is alot easier than say a manufacturing plant. A chemical weapons facility can be converted in about a week if enough people are involved.

 

As far as the Kurds go, they are broadly referred to as our allies but there are dissidents in every such group. There are British and American people that definitely do not support our belligerence and there are Kurds that do not support the rebellious nature of their group. Saddam has financed a good number of them to go and assassinate Kurdish leadership to further secure his own dictatorship. By no means can we rely on the solidarity of Kurdistan, especially against such a formidable foe.

 

The question of the gassing of the Kurds has not been proven and there is not enough substantial evidence pointing to Iraq or Iran. Both countries had used the chemicals in question during the Iran-Iraq War earlier in the decade. I will concede this point.

 

Saddam is no Hitler but can we really let this man dictate terms on all nations of the Middle East for the rest of his years. He sends his own people to the torture chamber where nitric acid drips out of randomly placed spouts on the ceiling til the person either pledges his loyalty or dissolves in a rather painful death I can only imagine. By the way it seems Saddam has a large surplus of HNO3 if he can go around dumping this rather expensive chemical on people. It is not a great leap of logic to suppose he is mass producing this in large quantities possibly as a missile propellant.

 

Are we prepared to deal with the casualties? People who claim war has its casualties are right. There are casualties in war. There are also casualties in peace. Sanctions on Iraq that have decimated their domestic population combined with rather poor medical facilities have killed an estimated 1.4 million Iraqi's. This number comes from Iraq herself as an argument to repeal the sanctions. I can do the math and say that casualties in the here and now can make up for a many hundreds of times more casualties in the future. Let's look at Afghanistan which is right now a mess yes but their future looks much brighter than it did 2 years ago. Nurturing their democracy and safeguarding it will allow the billions that we plan to spend there to not go to waste. The Iraqi National Congress and Iraqi National Accord are two large opposition groups that have already accepted American support. If anything I say build with these guys: they have some leftist ideals and I think that will go well hand-in-hand with the developing Iraqi democracy.

 

I am willing to spend a little money if it will only save this country from becoming a terrorist stomping ground. No amount of added security protocols will every fully protect this country and I don't think that this is the best line of defense. If anything such protection will simply encourage more terrorists to try the challenge of attacking this nation. We learn from history (whether it is a liberally-slanted education or not :huh: ) that it has been a mistake in the past to appease the tyrants. We allowed Hitler to take parts of Europe piecemeal whilst he was also arming himself with one of the largest and the most mechanized army on the continent.

 

The point is who really gets hurt if we take Saddam away and bring him to The Hague for international crimes where he belongs. Iraqi children are already dying, shall we stop it or allow it to continue?

 

I still do not support immediate war on Iraq if anyone thinks so. I can only hope that the military buildup: the multiple carrier groups, the AEGIS destroyers, and the nearly 100,000 US troops are first being used as a deterrent. Maybe this is wishful thinking but I do know that there are people like Saddam everywhere who will not comply unless a proverbial gun is held to their head. I support the International Community and hope it will act together when the need arises. All Bush has done, since he has not yet gone to war, is attempt to expedite the process of the Iraqi matter because time is not just money, it is people continuing to starve and die in Iraq.

 

Heh and well here is a note about the rest. I know sideshow you are a history major and you will have tons of information and history to back up your claims but the Treaty of Westphalia? I think we can all agree times have changed since the days of the Holy Roman Empire and Gustavus Adolphus.

 

Also how many "undeclared wars" have we lost? Well technically we are still at war with North Korea. It did start as a UN Police Action but it never ended as no cessation of hostilities has ever been signed, only the longest cease-fire agreement in the history of our planet. We did not declare war on North Vietnam but then again Congress did its best to do so at the outset. The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution did give LBJ carte blanche to settle the issue in Vietnam as it was "vital to (our) national interest and to world peace". Many people also claim we did not win in the Gulf War as Saddam Hussein remained in power. That was a different case as we had initially gone in to defend the sovereignty of Kuwait who could by no means defend itself ala Poland vs. Nazi Germany 1939. The joint resolution of Congress has set a precedent that set the tone for much of the past fifty years. Do not be surprised if the US does not ever declare war again. Declaring war gives a sense of total warfare and not a gradual buildup/police action that we have seen. We are talking about drafts and wartime rationing if we want to be true to history. The short history of this country has shown the Constitution to be a living document whose interpretation gives the branches of our government the power to set precedents and allow things to be done that are not specifically mentioned in it. The flexibility of our nation is one of the main factors contributing to its longevity. I only hope we can be more flexible in the future and allow others to be flexible too without having to see so much killing. We have not reached that point today, perhaps something can be said about it at the turn of the next century.

 

PS Sorry this is so long, this probably belongs on a newsgroup and certainly not on a baseball message board. It's just that certain feelings and a certain inspiration sometimes strikes at the oddest of times and places.

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this group took out a letter innewspapers around the country...endorsed by the usual lefties..jesse jackson , charlie sheen , john and joan cusack , al sharpton , alec baldwin ..even a few congressman that i cant recall their names right now..the usual anti republican crowd...

 

i expected this letter to contain the usual anti bush anti republican (you know -whatever a republican wants to do it must be wrong - so im automatically against it without even checking the facts)but this letter and the interview i saw on foxnews with their spokesperson(some 20 year old punk who was going to give bill oreilly a history lesson...lmao!!) has gone past everything this crowd has ever endorsed before to my knowledge..

 

the key quote , which prompted orielly to have this group on his show was.."we shook our heads at the terrible carnage (911) as we recalled similiar scenes in the gulf war and panama"...

 

in the interview orielly got this kid to say some of the most outragous things ive ever heard on this subject...this kid, representing this group , said the "american governemnt are terrorist"..."that american is responsible for the 200,00 civilian death in iraq during the gulf war and the deaths of over 500,000 children starving to death there since"....when asked by orielly isnt saddam responsible for that he said no...we were because we went into iraq which was a terrorist act...

 

orielly asked him about saddam gassing the kurds during the iraq -iran war and this kid doubted it ever happened..i gbuess saddam is a really good guy huh???

 

but when orielly brought up milosivec and asked where this group was when clinton went into yugoslavia the kid had no answer..didnt want to talk about that because it wasnt 'rellevent"..lmao...

 

this borders on some of the most bizarre stuff ive ever heard...for the college age kids that post here..is this the crap our universities are teaching??..that the US is a terrorist nation??...only when a repblican is in office of course :angry: that f***er really pissed me off....this is a slap in the face to those who lost loved ones in 911

 

im not posting the link to this website because it disgusts me...if you wanna set it for yourself go to foxnews and click on bill orielly..they have a link and a section where you can respond to this group and tell them what you think...even if you agree with them...

Who the f*** is this guy to call us a terrorist nation? Is this prick actually American? They should take him and the members of his f***ing group and gas the motherf***ers. Or they could just give me this guys address. Id take pleasure in paying this son of a b**** a visit. Id cut his f***ing eyeballs out with a f***ing pick ax and if he had a heart I would rip it out too! This pisses me off. Ya know what, you can leave, if ya dont like it here, get the f*** out! I recently heard about some Pakistani b****ass brothers who said they hate they US but they want to come to our good colleges. Ya know what, f*** you! We aint giving our education away to sons of b****es like you. Find these nazi muffins and chop off their mutha f***in heads! Im not gonna blame our schools. I go to school here but they aint molding me into thinking that we are a terrorist nation. Heck, if theyve molded me into anything, its a patriot. I love this country! Before we start the war in Iraq. We should start the war here. People like this need to shut the f*** up, and if they wont volunteer we need to volunteer the bastards anyways! This pisses me off!

 

BTW, no matter where I use the second person form here it is not directed at any of you. Just to avoid any confusion...

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God forbid someone speak ill of the U.S. and question the integrity of some of our decisions. True, calling us a "terrorist nation" is a bit extreme, but the reality of the situation is that the actions taken by America in propelling its own self-interest are responsible for many, many more deaths than any actions taken by terrorist cells.

 

"America.... Love it or leave it..." The most anti-American statement, EVER.

 

You know, there are reasons why people don't like us.

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Of course, let's not look how we're killing civilians and relegating them to poverty because of sanctions. Nonono, that's all Saddam's fault. And the Kurds? Guess whose weapons killed the Kurds? Ours, whoops. You guys know we did sell them weapons, as well as Afghanistan. Guess that really came around and bit us in the ass, no?

 

Liberal education? Cry me a f***ing river and visit Pepperdine, Harvard, and any Southern university.

 

Milosevic was committing Genocide, and we acted. Saddam kills Kurds, we look the other way, because Iraq was our ally in the 80's. Yet, today we must invade Iraq. Why? f*** not even the UN knows. We KNOW FOR A FACT North Korea has weapons-grade materials to produce "WMD". Saddam has s***ty SCUDs and maybe some germs lying around from a decade ago. Until we find such evidence of revived chemical or nuclear production, there is no reason we should go to war. Wait, oil is in Iraq. Forgot about that. And now we get rebates on SUVs, woohoo!

 

Also, the reasons most countries hate us because we support the Jews. Simple as that.

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God forbid someone speak ill of the U.S. and question the integrity of some of our decisions.  True, calling us a "terrorist nation" is a bit extreme, but the reality of the situation is that the actions taken by America in propelling its own self-interest are responsible for many, many more deaths than any actions taken by terrorist cells.

 

"America.... Love it or leave it..."  The most anti-American statement, EVER.

 

You know, there are reasons why people don't like us.

Saddam was killing his own people and then he started killing Kuwaitis. We said this is bulls*** and we saved them. Hussein is the one who is building nukes and threatening their use. I assure you, if America is nuked Iraq will be nuked but we wont nuke first. I must admit Im for the war in Iraq. Americans will die unfortunately but that is what happens in any war. I also assure you, if Saddam is allowed to stay Americans will die and they wont be sent knowing they could die but they will be the dad who leaves his wife and child and goes to work never to come home again, just like on sept 11. Saddam getting in a war with Iran is ok, those are two countries who are capable of fighting it out, thats like me and going and beating up witesoxfan. We can both fight and its probably a fair match. Now, when Saddam attacked Kuwait he crossed the line. Kuwait couldnt fight back. That is like me going to attack one of the LD kids. Id have no problem! The USA goes and fights and its always for a just cause. Maybe Nam wasnt and the whole Communist thing was a little stupid but the rest were wars of vengeance. And what Im saying, is if you dont like this country, leave. There is no law saying "You cant leave, were all in this together". You are free to go. And Solay, I for one, and millions of others, dont give a f*** if you leave. You are nobody. Go to Iraq. Live with Saddam and then when he comes out and gasses your ass I am going to laugh. Thats another thing. Have you ever been to these countries where you say were f***ing everything up? Do you know what kinda s*** goes on in these places? No, you dont. So visit these countries before you say were the ones f***in up life in those countries. Saddams been f***ing up life in Iraq far longer than we have. If he stays, hell be f***ing up life in a lot of places. Get a f***in clue you jackass.

 

And didnt Jeremy Glick himself die aboard Flight 93 fighting the terrorists? I know he had a son coming but hed only be like one and a half right now. Can someone please explain which Jeremy Glick this f***ers talking about? Besides, I think its bulls*** that any conscious person who lost relatives on Sept 11 would agree with this piece of s***.

 

And congrats to you, Mr OReilly for actually getting to tell this motherf***er what a deusche he is...

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Of course, let's not look how we're killing civilians and relegating them to poverty because of sanctions. Nonono, that's all Saddam's fault. And the Kurds? Guess whose weapons killed the Kurds? Ours, whoops. You guys know we did sell them weapons, as well as Afghanistan. Guess that really came around and bit us in the ass, no?

 

Liberal education? Cry me a f***ing river and visit Pepperdine, Harvard, and any Southern university.

 

Milosevic was committing Genocide, and we acted. Saddam kills Kurds, we look the other way, because Iraq was our ally in the 80's. Yet, today we must invade Iraq. Why? f*** not even the UN knows. We KNOW FOR A FACT North Korea has weapons-grade materials to produce "WMD". Saddam has s***ty SCUDs and maybe some germs lying around from a decade ago. Until we find such evidence of revived chemical or nuclear production, there is no reason we should go to war. Wait, oil is in Iraq. Forgot about that. And now we get rebates on SUVs, woohoo!

 

Also, the reasons most countries hate us because we support the Jews. Simple as that.

If Saddam had nothing why doesnt he just let us in? Then wed say thank you and leave. But no, he refuses so its his own incooperation thats pinned the bastard down.

 

And, our supporting the Jews, is that our fault? We all have allies and the Jews and Brits are ours. I know thats why they hate us but it just aint right.

 

Whatever, tho, Im done with this topic. This guy Solay has really pissed me off. He has spit in Americas face by saying this. He is a coward and a terrorist by saying this. Oops, coward and terrorist, I guess its all the same...

 

So f*** YOU Solay. Thats my final word to this son of a b****.

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Who the f*** is this guy to call us a terrorist nation? Is this prick actually American? They should take him and the members of his f***ing group and gas the motherf***ers. Or they could just give me this guys address. Id take pleasure in paying this son of a b**** a visit. Id cut his f***ing eyeballs out with a f***ing pick ax and if he had a heart I would rip it out too! This pisses me off. Ya know what, you can leave, if ya dont like it here, get the f*** out! I recently heard about some Pakistani b****ass brothers who said they hate they US but they want to come to our good colleges. Ya know what, f*** you! We aint giving our education away to sons of b****es like you. Find these nazi muffins and chop off their mutha f***in heads! Im not gonna blame our schools. I go to school here but they aint molding me into thinking that we are a terrorist nation. Heck, if theyve molded me into anything, its a patriot. I love this country! Before we start the war in Iraq. We should start the war here. People like this need to shut the f*** up, and if they wont volunteer we need to volunteer the bastards anyways! This pisses me off!

 

BTW, no matter where I use the second person form here it is not directed at any of you. Just to avoid any confusion...

Actually I support the fact this guy had his opinion voiced. If not for the sole reason that he got to go on the air and have a discussion with Bill O'Reilly who actually asked him to back up some of his ridiculous claims like the Gulf War resulted in the deaths of thousands of Iraqi children etc. Maybe people will think twice before swallowing everything they hear whether it be pro or anti-war.

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Who the f*** is this guy to call us a terrorist nation? Is this prick actually American? They should take him and the members of his f***ing group and gas the motherf***ers. Or they could just give me this guys address. Id take pleasure in paying this son of a b**** a visit. Id cut his f***ing eyeballs out with a f***ing pick ax and if he had a heart I would rip it out too! This pisses me off. Ya know what, you can leave, if ya dont like it here, get the f*** out! I recently heard about some Pakistani b****ass brothers who said they hate they US but they want to come to our good colleges. Ya know what, f*** you! We aint giving our education away to sons of b****es like you. Find these nazi muffins and chop off their mutha f***in heads! Im not gonna blame our schools. I go to school here but they aint molding me into thinking that we are a terrorist nation. Heck, if theyve molded me into anything, its a patriot. I love this country! Before we start the war in Iraq. We should start the war here. People like this need to shut the f*** up, and if they wont volunteer we need to volunteer the bastards anyways! This pisses me off!

 

BTW, no matter where I use the second person form here it is not directed at any of you. Just to avoid any confusion...

Actually I support the fact this guy had his opinion voiced. If not for the sole reason that he got to go on the air and have a discussion with Bill O'Reilly who actually asked him to back up some of his ridiculous claims like the Gulf War resulted in the deaths of thousands of Iraqi children etc. Maybe people will think twice before swallowing everything they hear whether it be pro or anti-war.

Wait a second, maybe this is just my anger but youre not saying you support this guy are you? At one point you say you support him voicing his opinion but then you call his claims ridiculous. Which is it? Sorry if you feel Im putting you on the spot. Please just explain that in more laymans terms... Thanks...

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Of course, let's not look how we're killing civilians and relegating them to poverty because of sanctions. Nonono, that's all Saddam's fault. And the Kurds? Guess whose weapons killed the Kurds? Ours, whoops. You guys know we did sell them weapons, as well as Afghanistan. Guess that really came around and bit us in the ass, no?

 

Liberal education? Cry me a f***ing river and visit Pepperdine, Harvard, and any Southern university.

 

Milosevic was committing Genocide, and we acted. Saddam kills Kurds, we look the other way, because Iraq was our ally in the 80's. Yet, today we must invade Iraq. Why? f*** not even the UN knows. We KNOW FOR A FACT North Korea has weapons-grade materials to produce "WMD". Saddam has s***ty SCUDs and maybe some germs lying around from a decade ago. Until we find such evidence of revived chemical or nuclear production, there is no reason we should go to war. Wait, oil is in Iraq. Forgot about that. And now we get rebates on SUVs, woohoo!

 

Also, the reasons most countries hate us because we support the Jews. Simple as that.

Weapons were sold to Iraq yes. Are you to say that because we sold them these weapons, we should not stop them from using them? I think the fact that we provided these weapons should increase our responsibility in this situation. How does blaming ourselves for selling Iraq weapons justify us letting them use them?

 

Also it is Saddam's chemical and biological programs that scared us more than any possibility he has nuclear weapons (which is seriously doubtful). The Geneva Convention outlawed use of chemical and biological agents long ago. The use of these in attacks by either Iran or Iraq (we really don't know who) against the Kurds is what worries us. All we know is that Saddam has had programs to develop them and has done so under strict scrutiny despite the UN mandate.

 

And why are you faulting us for not preparing to attack Korea? We built their nuclear reactors to provide this destitute nation with some frickin heat for god's sake. They made some noise on the international stage but they and our ally South Korea have reportedly come to an agreement. Basically this agreement is more food and oil from us in the good faith that they will shut down uranium reprocessing facilities.

 

I don't understand what you want. You say Korea deserves to be attacked more because they mediate with the 3rd party of South Korea and their sunshine policy. Iraq meanwhile shows little demand for anything, even food in an arid country with starving people. That just goes to show how much Saddam cares about his people (maybe he did gas some of em, so what?).

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