aboz56 Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Yes you do if the guy is good defensively. Ray was never known for his defense, except for going back on pop ups. Exactly, besides that he pretty much sucked on D and his range (left to right; right to left) was below average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 we didnt have to break the bank for the guy...unless you htink 6 million a year is breaking the bank???...we paid konerko 8 million a year..wouldnt that money have been better spent on durham???...it wouldnt have minded him leaving if we had a real prospect to replace him...but we didnt no I wouldnt have paid ray 6 or 8 but I wouldnt have paid konerko 8 either. That was a ridiculous move in my opnion. You have a point by stating we had nothing behind him to back him up. I did think that is what Willie was acquired for at the time. I know they thought highly of him when they acquired him from Baltimore for Singleton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 we didnt have to break the bank for the guy...unless you htink 6 million a year is breaking the bank???...we paid konerko 8 million a year..wouldnt that money have been better spent on durham???...it wouldnt have minded him leaving if we had a real prospect to replace him...but we didnt Durham wanted 8 million per, not 6. Which SF was stupid enough to pay him basically 7 mil per and look what he did last yr: got hurt and besides that, pretty much nothing to justify his salary. Now I loved Ray Durham as much as anyone, but he wasn't worth resigning at that price. 2003: $4.0M (+$3.6M signing bonus) 2004: $6.0M 2005: $6.5M 2006: Player option $7.0M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Durham wanted 8 million per, not 6. Which SF was stupid enough to pay him and look what he did last yr: got hurt and besides that, pretty much nothing to justify his salary. Now I loved Ray Durham as much as anyone, but he wasn't worth resigning at that price. 2003: $4.0M (+$3.6M signing bonus) 2004: $6.0M 2005: $6.5M 2006: Player option $7.0M I agree. What did we get for him anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 I agree. What did we get for him anyway? Jon Adkins, but since KW wouldnt have offered arbitration we wouldn't have gotten any draft picks for him anyway had we kept him the remainder of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Man, what I wouldn't give for Ray Durham, or any other halfway decent second baseman, right now. Think about it. If the Yanks sign Maddux that gives them too many starters and their big hole is second base. You could probably get Lieber or Contreras, a reliever and many $$$ if only we had a second baseman. Hell, I bet they'd even take Konerko's or Koch's contract off our hands, with the mood Steinbrenner is in right now. They wouldn't give us Lieber or Contreras, and why would we want Contreras anyway? He's making 8 million per. Hardly justifiable for a guy who has proven nothing at the major league level. The Yankees weakness right now is pitching, so they wouldn't give up one of those guys for a 2B if we had one to give. And what reliever would we want from them? Flash? Gabe White? Karsay (not with that salary)? Hammond? I see your point that they need a 2B, but they have nothing to give that anyone would want (or could afford at those ridiculous salaries) at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Jon Adkins, but since KW wouldnt have offered arbitration we wouldn't have gotten any draft picks for him anyway had we kept him the remainder of the year. DId the A's get for him? anything? I remember him going to the A's and not doing much for them. I also remember them putting him at DH and maybe CF too because they didn't like his defense at 2B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 DId the A's get for him? anything? I remember him going to the A's and not doing much for them. I also remember them putting him at DH and maybe CF too because they didn't like his defense at 2B I believe they took a SS from the University of Texas with their compensation pick for Durham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 From baseball america: Durham's pending free agency contributed heavily to the decision to deal him, as the White Sox are looking to trim payroll and have three Triple-A middle-infield prospects as potential replacements: Willie Harris, Tim Hummel and D'Angelo Jimenez. Chicago general manager Kenny Williams said that another factor in the trade was getting a chance to see Harris play regularly in the majors. But no matter what spin is put on this transaction, Chicago got very little in return. Adkins, 24, has intriguing stuff: a 90-94 mph fastball with good sink and a plus slider. He also throws a changeup and a splitter, which aren't as refined as his two best pitches. Despite his arsenal, however, the 1998 ninth-round pick out of Oklahoma State doesn't show consistent command in the strike zone and gets hits hard and often. In 97 innings at Sacramento, he gave up 139 hits and 33 walks, while striking out 76. He had Tommy John surgery in 1999 that kept him out of most of the following season. The Oakland Athletics signed first-round draft pick Brian Snyder and six more draftees Saturday. Snyder, a third baseman from Stetson who hit .396 with 11 homers and 55 RBIs this season, was the 26th overall pick in the draft. Oakland had the pick as compensation for losing free agent Ray Durham, who signed with the San Francisco Giants. Brian Snyder, 3B Another first-round pick for the A's, out of Stetson, Snyder picked up 146 at-bats with Vancouver in the Northwest League after signing. While he hit just .253, the A's were very pleased with his approach, including his .409 OBP. Minor injuries may have hurt his production in his debut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 there was nothing wrong with durham's defense...he wasnt a gold glover but he was more than adaquate, especially when you figure in his offense....you have to look at the whole player...you also take into account what you have behind him before you let him walk....since durham left we have been desperate for a 2nd baseman and a leadoff hitter... we had nothing behind durham...and we still dont...that makes him worth just about whatever he wants One thing you forgot to mention baggs(and I remember this from you preaching to the choir about it). Jose Valentin was apart of 118 DP's turned in 2000 in 141 games. In his next full season at SS, 2003(this past year), he was apart of 96 DPs in 143 games. Coincidence? I think not. Valentin's numbers took a hit because, from what I can tell, Jimenez, Harris, and apparently Alomar(unless his range to both sides is so much better then Durham's that he reduces that many baserunners and is actually as good if not better then Ray at turning two, which I personally doubt) as well are not as good Ray Durham at turning the double play. That whole turning two thing is not worth $7-8 mill a year...but if you consider that Durham averages 70 walks a year and an OBP of .350-.360 a year, that is a little more assuring then having Willie Harris and not having a damn clue to what he is going to do...and as always, changes could have been made later, like say trading Maggs or not signing Konerko to a huge ass deal after a great 1st-half and a solid 2nd-half. Hindsight is 20-20, as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 One thing you forgot to mention baggs(and I remember this from you preaching to the choir about it). Jose Valentin was apart of 118 DP's turned in 2000 in 141 games. In his next full season at SS, 2003(this past year), he was apart of 96 DPs in 143 games. Coincidence? I think not. Valentin's numbers took a hit because, from what I can tell, Jimenez, Harris, and apparently Alomar(unless his range to both sides is so much better then Durham's that he reduces that many baserunners and is actually as good if not better then Ray at turning two, which I personally doubt) as well are not as good Ray Durham at turning the double play. That whole turning two thing is not worth $7-8 mill a year...but if you consider that Durham averages 70 walks a year and an OBP of .350-.360 a year, that is a little more assuring then having Willie Harris and not having a damn clue to what he is going to do...and as always, changes could have been made later, like say trading Maggs or not signing Konerko to a huge ass deal after a great 1st-half and a solid 2nd-half. Hindsight is 20-20, as always. No one said Jiminez was a great defensive player either. Alomar actually helped Valentin a lot. I wouldn't judge him on half a season with the Sox. Harris received very little playing time so you can't judge him on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 No one said Jiminez was a great defensive player either. Alomar actually helped Valentin a lot. I wouldn't judge him on half a season with the Sox. Harris received very little playing time so you can't judge him on that. I just made a point that Ray was good at turning the DP. No need to get all uptight about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 I just made a point that Ray was good at turning the DP. No need to get all uptight about it. Oopsie daisy. Sorry, never meant to sound uptight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 One thing you forgot to mention baggs(and I remember this from you preaching to the choir about it). Jose Valentin was apart of 118 DP's turned in 2000 in 141 games. In his next full season at SS, 2003(this past year), he was apart of 96 DPs in 143 games. Coincidence? I think not. Valentin's numbers took a hit because, from what I can tell, Jimenez, Harris, and apparently Alomar(unless his range to both sides is so much better then Durham's that he reduces that many baserunners and is actually as good if not better then Ray at turning two, which I personally doubt) as well are not as good Ray Durham at turning the double play. That whole turning two thing is not worth $7-8 mill a year...but if you consider that Durham averages 70 walks a year and an OBP of .350-.360 a year, that is a little more assuring then having Willie Harris and not having a damn clue to what he is going to do...and as always, changes could have been made later, like say trading Maggs or not signing Konerko to a huge ass deal after a great 1st-half and a solid 2nd-half. Hindsight is 20-20, as always. good catch...ray was awesome in the pivot...i really miss him...he was a solid player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 good catch...ray was awesome in the pivot...i really miss him...he was a solid player Ray was adequate at the pivot. In fact, for years, he had trouble turning the DP. Manuel worked with him for a long time before he got it down. But, he did get it and was decent when the Sox traded him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 the money given to konerko , or even lee , shoould have went to durham...you pay for up the middle players..the league is deep in 1st baseman and corner outfielders You CANNOT pay 1/7th of your payroll to a player whose is merely good offensively, mediocre defensively and whose best-baserunning days are numbered. We ended up grossely overpaying for Konerko. We ended up overpaying for Buerhle. We ended up overpaying for Lee (815 OPS, average speed, GIDP's and a below average defense in LF? 15/2 is a bit too much) ever so slightly. We ended up overpaying Valentin We ended up grossely overpaying Koch. The money we saved on Ray ended up gettting squandered by Kenny. But by no means should it have gone to Ray. Thomas and Magglio are the ONLY players who deserve to be paid the market value and maybe even slightly overpaid. And even with those two players, there is a limit. 14 Mill is too much for Maggs and 10 Million was too much for injured Hurt back in the 2002 off-season. Forget about the conventional wisdom of "being strong up the middle". Every team has its special circumstances and needs. Ray's time was up. In retrospect, it proved to be the right move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Jose Valentin was apart of 118 DP's turned in 2000 in 141 games. In his next full season at SS, 2003(this past year), he was apart of 96 DPs in 143 games. Coincidence? I think not. Valentin's numbers took a hit because, from what I can Total coincidence, Wite. Defensive stats cannot be taken at face value. You have to sort out the accidental from the meaningful. Look at the total chances. In 2000, Valentin had almost 100 more total chances. Then, consider how many more baserunners 2000 pitching staff had at 1st as compared to the 2003 one. In 2000, we had a mediocre pitching staff whose arms fell off in the 2nd half of the season. In 2003, we had a pretty good staff-- hence less DP situations. Unlike Jose who really is a good DP man, Ray's pivot skills were greatly exaggerated. He was average/solid-- average positioning, average arm at best. He was no Bret Boone or Luis Castillo. Now Ray is banged up. With his contract, there is less incentive for him to bust his ass--- something which a 32yo player absolutely HAS to do to maintain form. He was never a particularly smart baserunner, so now that he has lost a step, he is a 20-25 SB threat at best. Still has difficulty up the middle. Less range in the hole as well. I like the 350 OBP and good speed as much as the next guy, but is it worth 7-8 Mill a year it was gonna take for Sox to re-sign him? When the enire 2003 OD payroll was 50 Mill? Come on. And don't tell me about the supposed discount because this organization has a BAD reputation, esp. with Kenny at the helm. If anything, players charge EXTRA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Durham wanted 8 million per, not 6. Aboz.. don't believe everything you read in the papers. It was a length issue, not money. Ray was taking what they were offering in terms of $$.. he wanted more time. They wouldn't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Aboz.. don't believe everything you read in the papers. It was a length issue, not money. Ray was taking what they were offering in terms of $$.. he wanted more time. They wouldn't do it. I do not believe it. We already know how Jose was gonna give Sox a discount. Alomar. These players lie. To the fans, to GMs, to their spouses and themselves even. Ray at 6.5 Mill (his 2002 salary) was a stretch. He ended up getting 21/3 from SanFran-- and they were coming off a World Series appearance, provided bigger exposure, warmer weather and better reputation and more prestige. You just can't pay 14% of your payroll over 3 years to a 32yo Ray. You can't. I was fine with Jimenez at 350K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 I do not believe it. Then don't. Kenny and Ray both commented it was the length of the contract that they were "off" on. I don't blame Ray or any player with small kids for wanting stability. With kids getting older and setting up roots in school. Sucks when they have to be moved at such a impressionable time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Then don't. Kenny and Ray both commented it was the length of the contract that they were "off" on. I don't blame Ray or any player with small kids for wanting stability. With kids getting older and setting up roots in school. Sucks when they have to be moved at such a impressionable time. With small kids, are you kidding me? Sorry Steff, but when are talking this kinda money, if you invest even a two year deal right for 10 million you are set for life. As a Sox fan, my last concern about a contract for Ray Durham is the fact that if we don't sign him for 4 yrs that his kids may have to move while they are in high school or preschool or in any other school. He wasn't worth a long term deal and last year proved that and his production this year won't be that great either. God forbid that his kids would have to move and make new friends elsewhere. That surely doesn't happen in everyday life. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Miss Doable one, although you know I still love ya... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 With small kids, are you kidding me? Sorry Steff, but when are talking this kinda money, if you invest even a two year deal right for 10 million you are set for life. As a Sox fan, my last concern about a contract for Ray Durham is the fact that if we don't sign him for 4 yrs that his kids may have to move while they are in high school or preschool or in any other school. He wasn't worth a long term deal and last year proved that and his production this year won't be that great either. God forbid that his kids would have to move and make new friends elsewhere. That surely doesn't happen in everyday life. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Miss Doable one, although you know I still love ya... Sigh... I don't know why you s***s insist on making it sound like I was all for giving Ray the farm... I was not. Paying Ray more than 6 million was not logical, but that was not the hang up. He wanted 5 years. No you do not give him 5 years. But you also don't say here's 2, take it or leave it without at least trying to negotiate. As for the kids of ball players.. they already live in 2 places. Why add more stress..? Kids starting their academic careers have enough stresses on them than having to make new friends over and over again, IMO. And yes Aboz.. I know it's not YOUR concern.. but they are real people with real lives who are worried about their kids, parents, spouses, etc, etc... Baseball is their job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Then don't. Kenny and Ray both commented it was the length of the contract that they were "off" on PR. PR. BS. PR. I don't blame Ray or any player with small kids for wanting stability. With kids getting older and setting up roots in school. Sucks when they have to be moved at such a impressionable time. I wouldn't "blame" Ray even if he demanded 3/30. He has a right to make what he wants to make. I also don't blame the Sox for not overpaying him and screwing up the team even further, something they've "excelled" in the recent years. Bring on Wiilijuan Harrisuribe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 God forbid that his kids would have to move and make new friends elsewhere. When the extra few mill Ray got out of it (properly invested) are paying for their condoes and boats and trophey wives (or husbands) , the "kids" will be grateful. Plus the kids are much more resilient than you give them vredit for, and with cell phones and I-net and money to travel during vacations, the friendships won't be broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Total coincidence, Wite. Defensive stats cannot be taken at face value. You have to sort out the accidental from the meaningful. Look at the total chances. In 2000, Valentin had almost 100 more total chances. Then, consider how many more baserunners 2000 pitching staff had at 1st as compared to the 2003 one. In 2000, we had a mediocre pitching staff whose arms fell off in the 2nd half of the season. In 2003, we had a pretty good staff-- hence less DP situations. Unlike Jose who really is a good DP man, Ray's pivot skills were greatly exaggerated. He was average/solid-- average positioning, average arm at best. He was no Bret Boone or Luis Castillo. Now Ray is banged up. With his contract, there is less incentive for him to bust his ass--- something which a 32yo player absolutely HAS to do to maintain form. He was never a particularly smart baserunner, so now that he has lost a step, he is a 20-25 SB threat at best. Still has difficulty up the middle. Less range in the hole as well. I like the 350 OBP and good speed as much as the next guy, but is it worth 7-8 Mill a year it was gonna take for Sox to re-sign him? When the enire 2003 OD payroll was 50 Mill? Come on. And don't tell me about the supposed discount because this organization has a BAD reputation, esp. with Kenny at the helm. If anything, players charge EXTRA. Dammit, go and knock me off my high horse like that you bastard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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