BrandoFan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Dammit, go and knock me off my high horse like that you bastard! It's rare that we disagree. Most of your posts are dead-on, so I don't get to "tutor" very often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 It's rare that we disagree. Most of your posts are dead-on, so I don't get to "tutor" very often. We(as not only a society but also as a race) are not perfect and sometimes overlook the obvious. It happens, and it happened to me here. You brought up good points that I had not considered. I do think I'd still rather have Ray on here then have say Paul Konerko at the same price...but you can look at it other ways, as in, if we kept Ray, who says JR doesn't open up the pocketbook and does not let us bring in Bartolo. It's all in the past and there is nothing to worry about now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 You CANNOT pay 1/7th of your payroll to a player whose is merely good offensively, mediocre defensively and whose best-baserunning days are numbered. We ended up grossely overpaying for Konerko. We ended up overpaying for Buerhle. We ended up overpaying for Lee (815 OPS, average speed, GIDP's and a below average defense in LF? 15/2 is a bit too much) ever so slightly. We ended up overpaying Valentin We ended up grossely overpaying Koch. The money we saved on Ray ended up gettting squandered by Kenny. But by no means should it have gone to Ray. Thomas and Magglio are the ONLY players who deserve to be paid the market value and maybe even slightly overpaid. And even with those two players, there is a limit. 14 Mill is too much for Maggs and 10 Million was too much for injured Hurt back in the 2002 off-season. Forget about the conventional wisdom of "being strong up the middle". Every team has its special circumstances and needs. Ray's time was up. In retrospect, it proved to be the right move. why dont we just get rid of anyoner making more than a million a year and become the devil rays???...JR would love you in the GM role Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 We (as not only a society but also as a race) are not perfect and sometimes overlook the obvious. Whoa. I do think I'd still rather have Ray on here then have say Paul Konerko at the same price How about neither? I am constantly amazed at how most never consider players' salaries when assessing their value (to a team). I mean, Jeter and A-Rod are nice...but do we realize they cost a combined 44 Mill, which is the entire Oakland A's payroll? Ray is not as overpaid as Paul is, don't get me wrong. But at 7-8 Mill it would have talen for Sox to resign him? 14-16% of the entire 2003 payroll? No way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Whoa. How about neither? I am constantly amazed at how most never consider players' salaries when assessing their value (to a team). I mean, Jeter and A-Rod are nice...but do we realize they cost a combined 44 Mill, which is the entire Oakland A's payroll? Ray is not as overpaid as Paul is, don't get me wrong. But at 7-8 Mill it would have talen for Sox to resign him? 14-16% of the entire 2003 payroll? No way. so what 2nd baseman would you spend that money on to replace durham???...because if you say let willie harris play 2nd and ill use the 6 million for another pitcher....well no pitcher in the world is gonna make up for the difference in talent between durham and harris...my God, durham in one season had 72 extra base hits...harris probably wont see 72 hits for his career let alone extra base hits... at some point you have to start paying these guys what they will get from other teams....6 to 8 million was fair for durham ..thats the range he got in san fran...at top 2nd baseman and quality lead off man is worth 6 million plus a year...especially when the team in question cant replace him...and thats a big point here...we couldnt replace durham...no matter how bad you think he was the drop off between him and jimenez/harris/hummell /miles , whoever was huge.. the reason why you pay durham and not konerko or lee is because you can easily replace konerko's and/or lee's production with a free agent in the 2 to 3 million dollar range travis lee's name pops up a lot...he's as good if not better than konerko and he's relatively cheap.....you cant do that with durham...because there just arnt very many quality 2nd baseman out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 why dont we just get rid of anyoner making more than a million a year Because that is a very stupid idea. ???...JR would love you in the GM role Who needs to be smart about how limited resources should be distributed? That kind of approach is for losers like Marlins, Twins, Angels and Athletics.... Instead we should have thrown the 50 mill of 2003 payroll on 7 overrrated players. Yep, that's the ticket. :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 so what 2nd baseman would you spend that money on to replace durham???...because if you say let willie harris play 2nd and ill use the 6 million for another pitcher....well no pitcher in the world is gonna make up for the difference in talent between durham and harris...my God, durham in one season had 72 extra base hits...harris probably wont see 72 hits for his career let alone extra base hits... at some point you have to start paying these guys what they will get from other teams....6 to 8 million was fair for durham ..thats the range he got in san fran...at top 2nd baseman and quality lead off man is worth 6 million plus a year...especially when the team in question cant replace him...and thats a big point here...we couldnt replace durham...no matter how bad you think he was the drop off between him and jimenez/harris/hummell /miles , whoever was huge.. the reason why you pay durham and not konerko or lee is because you can easily replace konerko's and/or lee's production with a free agent in the 2 to 3 million dollar range travis lee's name pops up a lot...he's as good if not better than konerko and he's relatively cheap.....you cant do that with durham...because there just arnt very many quality 2nd baseman out there... 1. Forget about the 6 Mill figure. It was closer to 8. If anything, he took less money to play in a great baseball place, for a winning, more storied, better-covered team, in a newly buily ballpark in SanFran. 7 Mill is the minimum it would have taken to resign him. He was making 6.5 Mill in 2002, for pete's sakes. 2. Ray defense was average and he was on the wrong side of 30. It's gonna get worse. 3. Forget about Ray swinping 40 bases anymore. 20 is more like it. 4. Wear-n-tear is catching up with him now. It will only get worse given his position and style of play. The extra risk further reduces his value. 5. Good but not great OBP and too many strike-outs. Ray was NOT worth the 21+ Mill it would have taken the Sox to resign him. You're overrating what he brought to the table. Sox's 2003 payroll was TOO LOW to pay Ray's instristic value price (6 Mill) let alone what he was likely asking (7-8) based on what he could get from richer teams on the market. Reality. I was fine with Jimenez at 300K and outside of one terrible month (June), he was performing well with us and with Cincy. Minimal downgrade from Ray. Now I am fine with a Uribe/Harris platoon. Both are talented, neither has gotten a big chance yet-- Uribe was brought up too quickly-- and can do well against LHP and RHP respectively. They are improvements over Ray defensively and in Willie's case on the pads. They cost a fraction of what Ray costs and are much younger. I don't think anyone who extols Aaron Miles's non-existent virtues can diss more talented (and productive as Harris proved in AAA) Uribe and Harris without seeing them on consistent basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I agree with Brando here. Harris/Uribe should give us close to the same production this year as an aging Ray Durham, and at a extremely cheaper rate. Really, only one of the two has to come through to be a dependable starting 2B and it is reality. And a platoon just might accomplish the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Harris/Uribe should give us close to the same production this year as an aging Ray Durham, I don't know about the "same" production, but if the tandem can stay within striking distance of aging Ray, it would be worth it as Sox would be saving 6.5 Mill in salary. On one player. You save enough money (and we are currently overpayng Maggs, Val, Konerko, Lee, Koch and Buerhle) by making smart decisions, and-- lo and behold-- you will find yourself a top of the division instead of the 2nd place. And once you are on top, it means more fans, more revenues and a higher payroll for next year, After a few years of winning and building the attendance momentum, you can start thinking about re-signing player like Ray. But until that happens, giving that kind of a player (I listed his flaws numerous times) 14 to 16% of the ENTIRE payroll is asking for trouble. I am glad Sox didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I don't know about the "same" production, but if the tandem can stay within striking distance of aging Ray, it would be worth it as Sox would be saving 6.5 Mill in salary. On one player. You save enough money (and we are currently overpayng Maggs, Val, Konerko, Lee, Koch and Buerhle) and-- lo and behold-- you will find yourself a top of the division instead of the 2nd place. And once you are on top, it means more fans, more revenues and a higher payroll for next year, After a few years of winning and building the attendance momentum, you can start thinking about re-signing player like Ray. But until that happens, giving that kind of a player (I listed his flaws numerous times) 14 to 16% of the ENTIRE payroll is asking for trouble. I am glad Sox didn't. I did say "close" to the same production. Relatively speaking, in a bang for buck outlook, I'd expect them to do quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 How about neither? I am constantly amazed at how most never consider players' salaries when assessing their value (to a team). I mean, Jeter and A-Rod are nice...but do we realize they cost a combined 44 Mill, which is the entire Oakland A's payroll? Ray is not as overpaid as Paul is, don't get me wrong. But at 7-8 Mill it would have talen for Sox to resign him? 14-16% of the entire 2003 payroll? No way. If I had the choice, I would take neither. My starting 1B and 2B would have been Daubach and Jimenez/Harris. Just as a hypothetical here to everyone...what if the Konerko for Ortiz trade last year goes through? I would assume we don't get Colon(maybe a wrong assumption...maybe we make the deal still because we still have money, then maybe Loaiza takes over the #5 and he breaks out and we have a rotation of Loaiza, Colon, Buehrle, Ortiz, Garland, being the best in the AL, and we all live happily ever after). Would have been a wacky team and I would say probably would have been the best in the AL, even better then Boston and New York. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillieHarris2 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 If I had the choice, I would take neither. My starting 1B and 2B would have been Daubach and Jimenez/Harris. Just as a hypothetical here to everyone...what if the Konerko for Ortiz trade last year goes through? I would assume we don't get Colon(maybe a wrong assumption...maybe we make the deal still because we still have money, then maybe Loaiza takes over the #5 and he breaks out and we have a rotation of Loaiza, Colon, Buehrle, Ortiz, Garland, being the best in the AL, and we all live happily ever after). Would have been a wacky team and I would say probably would have been the best in the AL, even better then Boston and New York. to bad we didnt trade for ortiz. i would be in heaven right now if our rotation was nearly as close to as good as that one sounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 to bad we didnt trade for ortiz. i would be in heaven right now if our rotation was nearly as close to as good as that one sounds We almost had him too. And then Atlanta said they would give Damian Moss. That made the deal. Two teams later, Moss is down in the southeast again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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