witesoxfan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 What about Cubs? Grudz/Walker Patterson Lee Sosa Alou Ramirez Um, no. I'll take Klesko, Giles, Nevin, Hernandez, Loretta, Vazquez, Payton, Burroughs over the Cubs offense. I'll take the Cubs rotation over almost anyone's rotation in a second though(and when I say almost, I mean I'd have to consider long and hard between Chicago-Houston, Chicago-Oakland, Chicago-New York, and Chicago-Boston, and that's about it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillieHarris2 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 i think i would take Oaklands rotation. They are tremendous as long as the big three (Mulder, Hudson, and Zito) aren't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 the phillies have a solid lineup plus they have like 4 all star caliber pitchers in millwood, wolf, padilla, and milton. as for the cubs when are they ever going to get a solid catcher. When are they going to get one? They HAVE a solid catcher. Barret had a down year in 2003, but in 2002, he put up .265 12 50 .750 OPS. His 2003 was quite bad, but he did not play an entire year, which was probably part of the reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillieHarris2 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 the question is will he have another solid year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I'll take Klesko, Giles, Nevin, Hernandez, Loretta, Vazquez, Payton, Burroughs over the Cubs offense --Lee away from Pro Players can go toe to toe with Klesko --Sosa is much, much better than Nady --Ramirez over Burroughs the way he hit with the Cubs. --Walker/Grugz platoon is only maginally worse than Loretta if that. --Patterson smokes Coors baby Payton or whoever plays CF if he can come close to the form he was showing last year. --Giles is better than Alou --Gonzo and Vasquez are a wash. Gonzo is better defensively and more powerful with all the fastballs he'll likely get, while Vazquez is faster, with better OBP. --Hernandez over Barrett. Depending on how Ramirez and Patterson progress, you could make a case for either team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I think the most interesting situation comes at the trade deadline. We know Maggs wants to test the FA waters. There will be a few suitors, but I think given another year, salaries will continue to drop. And next year we should have a lot more room to play with money-wise. I think maggs will end up with a deal at about 10-12 MIL a year. That is his value, and I think the market will have fully adjusted from its peak a few years ago. But what happens should the sox be 3.5 GB on July 31? Is there onother "white Flag" trade? If Maggs is involved, will he be willing to resign with the sox the following off-season? I see that as the crux of the situation, We may be able to get a stud prospect, and maggs plus payroll flexibility after the season. KW's job this season could be more interesting than his one last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillieHarris2 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 i doubt maggs would come back if we traded him at the deadline although it would be amazing. i guess well have to see how it plays out and if KW could pull something off like this then i would be very surprised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 --Lee away from Pro Players can go toe to toe with Klesko --Sosa is much, much better than Nady --Ramirez over Burroughs the way he hit with the Cubs. --Walker/Grugz platoon is only maginally worse than Loretta if that. --Patterson smokes Coors baby Payton or whoever plays CF if he can come close to the form he was showing last year. --Giles is better than Alou --Gonzo and Vasquez are a wash. Gonzo is better defensively and more powerful with all the fastballs he'll likely get, while Vazquez is faster, with better OBP. --Hernandez over Barrett. Depending on how Ramirez and Patterson progress, you could make a case for either team. Sosa is much, much better than Nady Agreed. That's why Nady will play in AAA this year. If Nevin is healthy and playing 100%, he's good for .290 30 100 .850 OPS or so, and he could be potentially better than that. The thing concerning him the most is injuries. He is one bad slide away from going on the 60-day DL. If that happens, either Nady would be called up, or Long would be used in his place...either way, Sosa destroys either one statistically. --Patterson smokes Coors baby Payton or whoever plays CF if he can come close to the form he was showing last year. That's a pretty big if coming back from surgery to repair his torn ACL. That's kind of a wait a see situation. --Gonzo and Vasquez are a wash. Gonzo is better defensively and more powerful with all the fastballs he'll likely get, while Vazquez is faster, with better OBP. I think we're comparing offenses here dog...stay on topic I'll personally give a slight advantage to Vazquez....but they are both very weak offensively. I'll take Vazquez's .260 .340 OBP over Gonzalez who was at .228 .295 last year, with better homer and rbi totals by quite a bit. I'd say SS is the main weakness on both teams. As I said, I'll take the Padres offense over the Cubs offense, but I'll take the Cubs rotation over almost anyone(and like I said, by almost, I mean I'll have to seriously consider Chicago-Houston, Chicago-Oakland, Chicago-Boston, and Chicago-New York, and that is about it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillieHarris2 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 cubs definetly have a shaky offense no doubt about it. thats why i dont think they will win it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLAK Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 If their pitching comes around and they think they can make a run on '05, don't discount the Tigers. They drew 2.4 million as recently as 2000 with a bad team in a new park, no small market. And they are owned by a fella named Mike Ilitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 cubs definetly have a shaky offense no doubt about it. thats why i dont think they will win it all. Shaky? No. Sosa can be counted on for 40-50 homers, Alou for probably .300 25, Aramis could have another great year for the Cubs, Derrek Lee is way better then Randall Simon/Eric Karros, Barret will probably be better then Miller, Patterson will be better then Lofton, and they now have Greg Maddux....and they were 5 outs away from being World Series bound, had Alex Gonzalez not booted the ball that he did in the top of the 8th(you can say all you want about Bartman, it was Gonzo that blew it for the Cubbies). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 As I said, I'll take the Padres offense over the Cubs offense Maybe you're right. BUT....it would be crazy to deny how deceptively explosive Cubs offense can be if things go right for them health-wise. Sosa along can get on a roll and smack 55/135 rbi homers with his eyes closed. Patterson's ACL has little do with his slugging and still won't effect his speed THAT much the way modern medicine is. Ramirez and Alou came through every time their team needed them. Lee is a 900 OPS player with Wriggley's 365-feet gaps and summer wind streams. Grudz can hit LHP and Walker can sure as hell hit RHP. Good platoon 2B combo. One thing A-Gone can do is hit mistakes, especially fastball mistakes. Put him in front of Patterson, Lee, Sosa, Alou and Ramirez full season and he'll out slug Vazxquez by a healthy margin. Understimating Cubs offense is something opponents cannot do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Maybe you're right. BUT....it would be crazy to deny how deceptively explosive Cubs offense can be if things go right health-wise. Sosa along can get on a roll and smack 55/135 rbi homers with his eyes closed. Patterson's ACL has little do with his slugging and still won't effect his speed THAT much the way modern medicine is. Ramirez and Alou came through every time their team needed them. Lee is a 900 OPS player with Wriggley's 365 gaps and summer wind streams. Grudz can hit LHP and Walker can sure as hell hit RHP. Good platoon 2B combo. One thing A-Gone can do is hit mistakes, especially fastball mistakes. Put him in front of Patterson, Lee, Sosa, Alou and Ramirez full season and he'll out slug Vazxquez by a healthy margin. Understimating Cubs offense is something opponents cannot do. Agreed. And I could personally easily see the Padres pulling a White Sox circa 2003....try to load up on too many power hitters, become very, very streaky with just solid starting, and end up at around .500. They could also be like the 2002 White Sox and have a decent offense to go along with a ton of power, and not just a ton of power with very few runs(considering all the homers that were hit) And the injury bug could hit the Padres as well. I believe Giles was hurt for like the first month or two last year, and Nevin has been very, very injury prone over the past 2 years. Both offenses could surprise a lot of people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillieHarris2 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Dont know if i would say that the cubs have a worse offense then the padres and I completley forgot about Corey Patterson. If i remember right he was having an awesome year before he got hurt last year. I checked the numbers and i was right...in 83 games, he batted .298 with 17 doubles, 7 triples, 13 homers, a career-high 55 RBI and 16 stolen bases Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLAK Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Dont know if i would say that the cubs have a worse offense then the padres and I completley forgot about Corey Patterson. If i remember right he was having an awesome year before he got hurt last year. I checked the numbers and i was right...in 83 games, he batted .298 with 17 doubles, 7 triples, 13 homers, a career-high 55 RBI and 16 stolen bases You didn't mention the 77 K's in 329 ABs. Or that by month he hit .300, .333, .269, .235 (6 Games). I wouldn't cast the plaque for Cooperstown yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 You hate taht about as much as I love giving overrated players on the wrong side of 30 5/75 Mill payolas....when the entire team budget barely stays over 50 Mill year in and out.....even when the team owner "goes for it". But hey....32 homers in the Juice Era.....that's, um, something. Once again, you talk like the money to pay Maggs would be coming out of your pocket! I am sick of JR "crying poor", especially when teams like the Pirates are outspending the Sox! I am also sick of the "Reinsdorf-apologists"! Jay Mariotti is 100% correct about Sox ownership; they need to sell the team a.s.a.p! They are NOT committed to winning, they are committed ONLY to making money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Shaky? No. Sosa can be counted on for 40-50 homers, Alou for probably .300 25, Aramis could have another great year for the Cubs, Derrek Lee is way better then Randall Simon/Eric Karros, Barret will probably be better then Miller, Patterson will be better then Lofton, and they now have Greg Maddux....and they were 5 outs away from being World Series bound, had Alex Gonzalez not booted the ball that he did in the top of the 8th(you can say all you want about Bartman, it was Gonzo that blew it for the Cubbies). Dusty blew it for YOUR cubbies...if he had the smarts to use Clement out of the pen (like the Marlins used Dontrelle) the cubs would have got to the Series. Dusty is (still) an idiot, and the cubs will figure out a way to blow it again. Guaranteed!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 You can bet on this...the 2004 will set an all time record for most team strikeouts! That is a lock!!! :fthecubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Dusty blew it for YOUR cubbies...if he had the smarts to use Clement out of the pen (like the Marlins used Dontrelle) the cubs would have got to the Series. Dusty is (still) an idiot, and the cubs will figure out a way to blow it again. Guaranteed!!! For MY Cubbies? What in the blue-f*** are you talking about? I hate the Cubs with a passion. I just look at things as they should be looked at instead of throwing on the rose-colored glasses and instantly saying the Cubs suck and the White Sox rock and the White Sox will win the Series and the Cubs will get completely destroyed by everyone and will struggle to win 50 games. Dusty Baker may not have a World Series ring, but he has been 6 outs away from winning the series(when he was unfortunate enough to have Rob Nen blow a save when Nen had not blown a save throughout the playoffs IIRC), and he was 5 outs away from getting to the World Series when he was unfortunate enough that his SS has hands of stone and booted a taylor-made DP, and had his SS recorded that DP, the Cubs probably go to the Series and win the whole thing. I personally feel he is the best manager Chicago as a city(including both the White Sox and Cubs) has had in the past 10 years, if not longer, and I'm sure many will agree. And the 2004 Cubs will not set a record for strikeouts, unless you are talking about pitching wise. They'd have to strike out 1400 times, and that will not happen. They'll probably strike out over 1000 times, but not nearly 1400. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I am sick of JR "crying poor", especially when teams like the Pirates are outspending the Sox! WTF!!! The pirates are trimming 15 MIL in payroll this season. scroll down to bottom of article The Pirates, who are trimming their payroll by about $15 million, have 25 non-roster players coming to camp, including relievers Jose Mesa and Juan Acevedo, and outfielder Chris Singleton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 For MY Cubbies? What in the blue-f*** are you talking about? I hate the Cubs with a passion. I just look at things as they should be looked at instead of throwing on the rose-colored glasses and instantly saying the Cubs suck and the White Sox rock and the White Sox will win the Series and the Cubs will get completely destroyed by everyone and will struggle to win 50 games. Dusty Baker may not have a World Series ring, but he has been 6 outs away from winning the series(when he was unfortunate enough to have Rob Nen blow a save when Nen had not blown a save throughout the playoffs IIRC), and he was 5 outs away from getting to the World Series when he was unfortunate enough that his SS has hands of stone and booted a taylor-made DP, and had his SS recorded that DP, the Cubs probably go to the Series and win the whole thing. I personally feel he is the best manager Chicago as a city(including both the White Sox and Cubs) has had in the past 10 years, if not longer, and I'm sure many will agree. And the 2004 Cubs will not set a record for strikeouts, unless you are talking about pitching wise. They'd have to strike out 1400 times, and that will not happen. They'll probably strike out over 1000 times, but not nearly 1400. 1. Dusty might be the best manager Chicago has had in the last 10 years, big deal...that's like being the tallest midget!!! 2. You sound like a Cubs fan the way you talk them up above...let me hook you up to some reality. a. Sosa will strike out close to 200 times. A-Gon...the same, Corey, the same (if healthy), Alou strikes out a lot, Grudz/Walker, etc. (If you don't think the K-record is a lock, let's bet!) 3. Dusty is the main reason the cubs didn't get to the Series last year. He had Clement, Zambrano, etc., in the Pen in Games 6 and 7, didn't use 'em...Cubs lose!!! 4. Cubs have suspect team defense too, and virtually no team speed. If they don't make the playoffs, it won't surprise me at all!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 WTF!!! The pirates are trimming 15 MIL in payroll this season. scroll down to bottom of article Didn't the Pirates just sign Randall Simon AND Raul Mondesi? Couldn't the Sox have used either or both of those guys? And they are trying to sign Pedro Astacio too! (Another guy that the Sox were rumored to have interest in!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Didn't the Pirates just sign Randall Simon AND Raul Mondesi? Couldn't the Sox have used either or both of those guys? And they are trying to sign Pedro Astacio too! (Another guy that the Sox were rumored to have interest in!) First of all Mondesi hasn't signed anywhere. There have been "Several published reports" but the Pirates have not confirmed anything. I am sick of JR "crying poor", especially when teams like the Pirates are outspending the Sox! So your definition of OUTSPENDING is, spending less money for clubhouse-killer(mondesi) and a sausage-beater(Simon)? We have not been out spent. There are a reason those guys are still left on the market. Even astacio, who was a big trade deadline move just 2 years ago, has BIG ??? surrounding him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 1. Dusty might be the best manager Chicago has had in the last 10 years, big deal...that's like being the tallest midget!!! If that midget is 6'5'', yes, you are correct. I mean, he DID manage 10 years in San Francisco for a reason. Maybe you didn't read it carefully enough....I said in the past 10 years, if not longer...probably is longer. I would say he is one of the better managers Chicago has seen in quite some time....not sure exactly how long that time period is, because I have only been on this planet just over 16 years and have not done a ton of research on Chicago baseball managers of the past 100 years, but I would guess that just based on his credentials and the fact that he took a team that finished well below .500 with Baylor/Kimm and took them within 5 outs of getting to the World Series says something about him. I would say he is atleast a top 10 manager in Chicago history, if not top 5. If I did more research, I'd probably be able to say for sure. You sound like a Cubs fan the way you talk them up above...let me hook you up to some reality. a. Sosa will strike out close to 200 times. A-Gon...the same, Corey, the same (if healthy), Alou strikes out a lot, Grudz/Walker, etc. (If you don't think the K-record is a lock, let's bet!) I speak the truth. I am a White Sox fan, and I dislike the Cubs with a passion...but I look at the team and I see a team that is not only a contender for their division crown but a contender to win the World Series. The most Sosa has ever struck out in a season is 174 in 1997, and he then struck out 171 times the next two years(while hitting 66 and 63 homers in those same two years), and he has not broken the 160 K barrier since 2000. I would venture to guess that he strikes out somewhere around 150 times. The most Alex Gonzalez has ever struck out is 149 times in 2001, his last season as a Toronto Blue Jay. The past two years he has struck out 136 and 123 times respectively...I expect him to strike out about 130 times or so this year. Moises Alou is the one that cracks me up...have you even looked at his stats? Alou has NEVER struck out 90 times in a season, in fact, the most he has ever struck out in one year was 1998 with Houston...he struck out 87 times. I think you would take his .312 38 124 .981 OPS with 87 strike outs if you had to. Patterson struck out 142 times in his only full season in the majors and 77 times in the 83 games he played last year...leading me to believe he strikes out a little less then once a game, meaning he'll probably strike out about 140 times this year. And I don't think the K-record is a lock, however, I am not a betting man. Otherwise, I would be much better(unless it is just a friendly bet with nothing to lose by personal pride...is so, I'm game ) 3. Dusty is the main reason the cubs didn't get to the Series last year. He had Clement, Zambrano, etc., in the Pen in Games 6 and 7, didn't use 'em...Cubs lose!!! Alex Gonzalez is the main reason the Cubs didn't get to the series. Dusty can't field for him, but if he could, the Cubs would have been in the series. Literally, if Gonzo fields that, we are still probably sulking after the Cubs won a World Series for the first time in some 95 years. It had nothing to do with mis-managment of the bullpen. Prior was in cruise control until Gonzo misplayed that. He then got erratic, and Kyle Farnsworth was brought in(who had been very solid for Dusty all year long), and Farnsworth proceeded to give up just a few hits, and from what I can recall, all hell broke loose after that. 4. Cubs have suspect team defense too, and virtually no team speed. If they don't make the playoffs, it won't surprise me at all!!! Who gives a s***? We have suspect team defense and virtually no team speed as well. They also have arguably the best starting pitching in the major leagues(IMO is is the best by far....Prior, Wood, Maddux, Zambrano, and Clement as your #5, a guy who as recently as 2002 had an ERA of under 3.75 and as recently as last year won 14 games. That is an insanely deep and talented starting rotation...if any of them gets injured, another can pick up the slack. I will go as far as saying that this Cubs rotation could be one of the best rotations the majors have seen since the Braves showed us Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and Avery when they were all in their primes), and we don't. They have a very underrated offense, and quite possibly, we have an overrated offense. The only thing we may have on them is a better bullpen...and that's not even guaranteed as well with their addition of Hawkins, who is a huge stud. I think you need to stop this blind hatred and total detestment of the Cubs and just look at the team as if they were any other team for a second and realize that they are a very, very serious threat to do a s***load of damage on the MLB and could do some very, very serious terrorizing in the playoffs. I hate them as much as every other person on here, but I look at things objectively, and realize that the Cubs are a very good team, with a very good manager. BTW, have you EVER considered looking at stats and using facts to backup your thoughts, or do you just spout s*** off the top of your head? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Didn't the Pirates just sign Randall Simon AND Raul Mondesi? Couldn't the Sox have used either or both of those guys? And they are trying to sign Pedro Astacio too! (Another guy that the Sox were rumored to have interest in!) It has been reported, but not verified; no; and Astacio's arm is in s***ty-ass shape to answer your questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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