BrandoFan Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Wite, Remember when I told you that SSI wasn't an idiot and that such label should be saved for more deserving candidates? Do you understand now what I meant? It would AWESOME if Cubs implode this year. But I also realize they have the best team in the NL by a healthy margin and are probably gonna win the World Series. And people b**** about strike-outs all the time.....Guess what? If you slug the hell out of a ball and hit well with RO/RISP....I DON'T GIVE A s*** HOW MANY K's YOU ACCRUE. If I am Dusty, I don't care if Sammy K's 250 times a year if he also slugs to the tune of 750 and drives in 165 runs. Give me a 9-pitch strike-out battle OVER a first-pitch pop-up or, worse, a dreaded DP. But that's just me. And that A-Gone thing was every bit as freaky as SteveBartmangate. While Renteria won't the GG, it was obvious Alex S. Gonzalez was the BEST fielding SS in the NL. Nice try there, Izzy. You got an EXCELLENT motivational manager whom players not only love but RESPECT. He "gets it"-- he knows how to stay out of Bonds' way, he knows Sammy Sosa's soft spots, he can make Keny Lofton bust his ass, etc, etc, etc. And while he is a mediocre tactician, OVERALL he is still a legitimately GOOD manager. You don't take two different teams to a combined 10 outs away from the World Series in two consecutive years without being "good" at something. Giants and Cubs were NOT best teams in 2002 and 2003 and yet there they WERE...... You got: 1. Grudz/Walker (quality platoon) 2. Patterson 3. Lee 4. Sosa 5. Alou 6. Ramirez 7. Gonzo 8. Barret/Miller 9. Wood/Prior/Zambrano/Maddux-- very good hitting quartet SP standards. Prior Maddux Wood Zambrano Clement Borowski Hawkins Farnsworth Remlinger 1. Deceptively good offense. 2. Great rotation 3. Good BP Good manager. Translation: if healthy, that's a 100+ win squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 the Cubs suck and the White Sox rock and the White Sox will win the Series and the Cubs will get completely destroyed by everyone and will struggle to win 50 games And what is wrong with saying that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Wite, Remember when I told you that SSI wasn't an idiot and that such label should be saved for more deserving candidates? Do you understand now what I meant? Absolutely. I do believe SSI and I have reconciled our differences, or some s*** like that, and I am no longer calling him an idiot, and that I feel he is just a little uninformed on the age issue, however, I have dropped that because it was quite obviously going nowhere. I'm veyr much over that. It would AWESOME if Cubs implode this year. But I also realize they have the best team in the NL by a healthy margin and are probably gonna win the World Series. Agreed. And people b**** about strike-outs all the time.....Guess what? If you slug the hell out of a ball and hit well with RO/RISP....I DON'T GIVE A s*** HOW MANY K's YOU ACCRUE. This is true. I believe the Yankees led the AL in strikeouts last year(offensively...not sure who led it pitching-wise; also, they may not have led, but if they didn't, they were damn close). They only got to the World Series. If I am Dusty, I don't care if Sammy K's 250 times a year if he also slugs to the tune of 750 and drives in 165 runs. Give me a 9-pitch strike-out battle OVER a first-pitch pop-up or, worse, a dreaded DP. But that's just me. Agreed and agreed, especially with the last one. 9-pitch at bats where you end up striking out are very good at-bats not only because it makes a pitcher throw more pitches, it also forces them to throw more pitches, featuring their stuff, and sometimes, that is not a good thing to want to have to do. You got an EXCELLENT motivational manager whom players not only love but RESPECT. He "gets it"-- he knows how to stay out of Bonds' way, he knows Sammy Sosa's soft spots, he can make Keny Lofton bust his ass, etc, etc, etc. And while he is a mediocre tactician, OVERALL he is still a legitimately GOOD manager. You don't take two different teams to a combined 10 outs away from the World Series in two consecutive years without being "good" at something. Giants and Cubs were NOT best teams in 2002 and 2003 and yet there they WERE...... Very much agreed with that, however, just one technical thing...he DID take the Giants to the World Series in 2002 and was 5 outs away from winning the whole f***ing thing. Part of me wishes very, very badly that we had fired Manuel at the end of the 2002 season, because if we had, we would probably have been in the playoffs in 2003 and in line for another incredibly great year this year, if not coming off a World Series victory. Some folks don't believe it, but the manager, IMO, makes that big of a difference. You got: 1. Grudz/Walker (quality platoon) 2. Patterson 3. Lee 4. Sosa 5. Alou 6. Ramirez 7. Gonzo 8. Barret/Miller 9. Wood/Prior/Zambrano/Maddux-- very good hitting quartet SP standards. Prior Maddux Wood Zambrano Clement Borowski Hawkins Farnsworth Remlinger 1. Deceptively good offense. 2. Great rotation 3. Good BP Good manager. Translation: if healthy, that's a 100+ win squad. And most likely a World Series victory if they get a break or two in the playoffs, unlike the large number of breaks the Marlins got to win the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 And what is wrong with saying that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 9-pitch at bats where you end up striking out are very good at-bats not only because it makes a pitcher throw more pitches, it also forces them to throw more pitches, featuring their stuff, and sometimes, that is not a good thing to want to have to do It's NEVER a good thing. It tires and frustrates the pitcher. And not only does the hitter on deck get a better look at the release angles and break, but the batter himself benefits greatly in subsequent at bats. Kenny Lofton would often come up to lead of the b-game and foul of 4-5 borderline pitchers and take a couple more, so even if he ended up striking-out or grounding out weakly, the next 4 at bats he was ON every pitch, in every location because he pretty much saw everything the first time around. You're right about Giants making it to the Series. What was I thnking! Here's to Great Cub Implosion 2004 Heck, I'll take Steroid Scandal Rocks The Cub Nation at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillieHarris2 Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Roberto Alomar was another lead off guy who was good at getting the pitcher to make a lot of pitches to get him out. Roberto would just keep fouling em off and keep fighting. Not only does this upset a pitcher but it gives the other guys on your team a chance to see what the pitchers got on that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Alex Gonzalez is the main reason the Cubs didn't get to the series. And Steve Bartman... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillieHarris2 Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 i hate cubs fans who blame the whole thing on Steve Bartman that really pisses me off. A-Gonz blew it and lost all the momentum for his team. Prior choked and there you have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 i hate cubs fans who blame the whole thing on Steve Bartman that really pisses me off. A-Gonz blew it and lost all the momentum for his team. Prior choked and there you have it. Also the bullpen didn't hold the lead as well. The whole team contributed in that game and the whole series loses against the Marlins. I tell cub fans sure they'll be a hellofa team next year. That doesn't mean you'll win the World Series. You team will probably choke in the playoffs as usual. :fthecubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Wite, Remember when I told you that SSI wasn't an idiot and that such label should be saved for more deserving candidates? Do you understand now what I meant? It would AWESOME if Cubs implode this year. But I also realize they have the best team in the NL by a healthy margin and are probably gonna win the World Series. And people b**** about strike-outs all the time.....Guess what? If you slug the hell out of a ball and hit well with RO/RISP....I DON'T GIVE A s*** HOW MANY K's YOU ACCRUE. If I am Dusty, I don't care if Sammy K's 250 times a year if he also slugs to the tune of 750 and drives in 165 runs. Give me a 9-pitch strike-out battle OVER a first-pitch pop-up or, worse, a dreaded DP. But that's just me. And that A-Gone thing was every bit as freaky as SteveBartmangate. While Renteria won't the GG, it was obvious Alex S. Gonzalez was the BEST fielding SS in the NL. Nice try there, Izzy. You got an EXCELLENT motivational manager whom players not only love but RESPECT. He "gets it"-- he knows how to stay out of Bonds' way, he knows Sammy Sosa's soft spots, he can make Keny Lofton bust his ass, etc, etc, etc. And while he is a mediocre tactician, OVERALL he is still a legitimately GOOD manager. You don't take two different teams to a combined 10 outs away from the World Series in two consecutive years without being "good" at something. Giants and Cubs were NOT best teams in 2002 and 2003 and yet there they WERE...... You got: 1. Grudz/Walker (quality platoon) 2. Patterson 3. Lee 4. Sosa 5. Alou 6. Ramirez 7. Gonzo 8. Barret/Miller 9. Wood/Prior/Zambrano/Maddux-- very good hitting quartet SP standards. Prior Maddux Wood Zambrano Clement Borowski Hawkins Farnsworth Remlinger 1. Deceptively good offense. 2. Great rotation 3. Good BP Good manager. Translation: if healthy, that's a 100+ win squad. If Dusty had a brain in his head, the cubs would have made the Series last year! He was outmanaged in a big, bad way! He had all this crap in the Pen, Clement and Zambrano are sitting there rested, and he doesn't have the wherewithall to even think about using one of them! Great, all the players like him, but, if you can't manage, you can't manage! Sometimes it is about Xs and Os. BTW...if you were implying that I am an idiot, let it be known, that I have forgotten more about baseball (and just about anything we've discussed on Soxtalk) than you have ever, or will ever know!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 If that midget is 6'5'', yes, you are correct. I mean, he DID manage 10 years in San Francisco for a reason. Maybe you didn't read it carefully enough....I said in the past 10 years, if not longer...probably is longer. I would say he is one of the better managers Chicago has seen in quite some time....not sure exactly how long that time period is, because I have only been on this planet just over 16 years and have not done a ton of research on Chicago baseball managers of the past 100 years, but I would guess that just based on his credentials and the fact that he took a team that finished well below .500 with Baylor/Kimm and took them within 5 outs of getting to the World Series says something about him. I would say he is atleast a top 10 manager in Chicago history, if not top 5. If I did more research, I'd probably be able to say for sure. I speak the truth. I am a White Sox fan, and I dislike the Cubs with a passion...but I look at the team and I see a team that is not only a contender for their division crown but a contender to win the World Series. The most Sosa has ever struck out in a season is 174 in 1997, and he then struck out 171 times the next two years(while hitting 66 and 63 homers in those same two years), and he has not broken the 160 K barrier since 2000. I would venture to guess that he strikes out somewhere around 150 times. The most Alex Gonzalez has ever struck out is 149 times in 2001, his last season as a Toronto Blue Jay. The past two years he has struck out 136 and 123 times respectively...I expect him to strike out about 130 times or so this year. Moises Alou is the one that cracks me up...have you even looked at his stats? Alou has NEVER struck out 90 times in a season, in fact, the most he has ever struck out in one year was 1998 with Houston...he struck out 87 times. I think you would take his .312 38 124 .981 OPS with 87 strike outs if you had to. Patterson struck out 142 times in his only full season in the majors and 77 times in the 83 games he played last year...leading me to believe he strikes out a little less then once a game, meaning he'll probably strike out about 140 times this year. And I don't think the K-record is a lock, however, I am not a betting man. Otherwise, I would be much better(unless it is just a friendly bet with nothing to lose by personal pride...is so, I'm game ) Alex Gonzalez is the main reason the Cubs didn't get to the series. Dusty can't field for him, but if he could, the Cubs would have been in the series. Literally, if Gonzo fields that, we are still probably sulking after the Cubs won a World Series for the first time in some 95 years. It had nothing to do with mis-managment of the bullpen. Prior was in cruise control until Gonzo misplayed that. He then got erratic, and Kyle Farnsworth was brought in(who had been very solid for Dusty all year long), and Farnsworth proceeded to give up just a few hits, and from what I can recall, all hell broke loose after that. Who gives a s***? We have suspect team defense and virtually no team speed as well. They also have arguably the best starting pitching in the major leagues(IMO is is the best by far....Prior, Wood, Maddux, Zambrano, and Clement as your #5, a guy who as recently as 2002 had an ERA of under 3.75 and as recently as last year won 14 games. That is an insanely deep and talented starting rotation...if any of them gets injured, another can pick up the slack. I will go as far as saying that this Cubs rotation could be one of the best rotations the majors have seen since the Braves showed us Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and Avery when they were all in their primes), and we don't. They have a very underrated offense, and quite possibly, we have an overrated offense. The only thing we may have on them is a better bullpen...and that's not even guaranteed as well with their addition of Hawkins, who is a huge stud. I think you need to stop this blind hatred and total detestment of the Cubs and just look at the team as if they were any other team for a second and realize that they are a very, very serious threat to do a s***load of damage on the MLB and could do some very, very serious terrorizing in the playoffs. I hate them as much as every other person on here, but I look at things objectively, and realize that the Cubs are a very good team, with a very good manager. BTW, have you EVER considered looking at stats and using facts to backup your thoughts, or do you just spout s*** off the top of your head? I'm not comparing the cubs and the Sox! All I'm saying is, you people are being too quick to annoint them Champions! The cubs haven't put 2 winning seasons together since 1972! Still, if you want to compare, catching is a "wash", slight nod to cubs at 1b and 2b, I prefer our SS and 3B, Lee over Alou, CF, both guys coming off of injuries, question marks, Maggs over Sammy! Cubs starters over ours, their closer is better than ours, the rest of our bullpen is better than theirs! Cub ownership/management is MUCH better than Sox'. Not a world of difference between the 2 teams though!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 The Marlins-Cubs series wasn't decided by who got "the breaks", the Cubs were out-managed in Games 6 and 7! End of story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 I'm not comparing the cubs and the Sox! Nor am I. I said Dusty Baker is one of the better managers the city of Chicago has seen in a very long time. How is that comparing the Cubs and Sox? The cubs haven't put 2 winning seasons together since 1972! The best starting rotation in the majors will help them end that streak this year. Still, if you want to compare, catching is a "wash", slight nod to cubs at 1b and 2b, I prefer our SS and 3B, Lee over Alou, CF, both guys coming off of injuries, question marks, Maggs over Sammy! Catcher is too s***ty to even argue, though I do think the Cubs win. Agreed on 1B and 2B, as well as SS, however, I tend to think LF is more of equal than you want to think of it. Lee, with the exception of 2002 for some odd reason, can't draw a walk to save his life(in 2000, 2001, and 2003, had 37, 37, and 38 walks respetively...and for some strange ass reason, drew 75 in 2002, in 140 games, while playing 150 or more the other 3 years. Just a question that cannot be answered. Meanwhile, Alou puts up slightly fewer homers, RBI, and had a slightly worse BA, but can draw a walk, and strikes out only 60-70 times a year, whereas Lee struck out 90 times last year...however, I will give a slight advantage to Lee). CF, only Patterson is coming off an injury...Rowand was healthy all last year, though he was not 100% at the beginning of the year. I don't know where you get off thinking that Rowand got injured at some point last year. Still even though, because Patterson has incredible range just due to god-given talent, and he is also seems to be a better hitter then Rowand as well. I'll leave it at even just because Patterson is coming off an injury. However, I do not understand at all why you give Crede the advantage over Ramirez. Crede's only in his 3rd year, is solid with the glove, hasn't proven he can hit above .270 at the majors, has not hit 20 homers, let alone 25-30, and barely drew 30 walks last year, while Aramis has hit 25 homers or more twice in his career(2001 with the Pirates, his best year to date going .300 34 112 .885 OPS, and 2003, where he had a solid .272 27 106 .788 OPS), though he has shown he has a weak glove at time. Plain and simply, if you want to win this year and you take Crede over Ramirez, you are probably shooting yourself in the foot, just based on previous years. If you are building for the future and take Crede, that's understandable....then again, you are talking about who is going to be better this year(and I'm not sure how we got into this debate), and I take Ramirez. Your next point shows some definate blind faith. Taking Maggs over Sosa is, if I may, just plain stupid. I hate the guy as a baseball player and I think, if he ever put on a White Sox uniform again, he would be the only Sox player I would ever consider booing just because of who he is, but he has killed Maggs statistically over the past 5 years. Maggs has averaged .312 32 118 .919 OPS over the past 5 years, which would be a very good season, however, Sosa has averaged .301 53 130 1.024 OPS the past 5 years, blowing away Maggs. If you give the edge to Maggs over Sosa just because you like the guy, you need to look at the stats and do a little more considering. Now, if we are talking about who I would rather have if they are both on the FA market, and Maggs is asking for $8 mill a year and Sammy's asking for $15 mill a year, I'll take Maggs based strictly for monetary reasons, because with the $7 mill you would save, you can pick up about 3-4 very good relievers or a pretty solid starter, etc, but we are talking about who is better based strictly upon who is the better ballplayer, and Sosa blows Maggs out of the water. I give the clear advantage to the Cubs in RF, though I like our RFer more. Cubs starters over ours, their closer is better than ours, the rest of our bullpen is better than theirs! Agreed, agreed(just because Koch is s***), however, I'm not sure how you take Shingo, Marte, Politte, Wunsch, and a ? over Hawkins, Remlinger, Farnsworth, Cruz, and Mercker. Their bullpen is much, much better then ours, and I would love to have it over ours. Not a world of difference between the 2 teams though!!! You're right. It's only 8.1 miles. However, as far as talent is concerned, they destroy us, and then they have one of the better managers Chicago has flat out ever seen. I expect them to win 100+ games a cruise to the World Series, and I'm hoping we win around 80-85, hell, maybe even 90 with a trade or two at the deadline that help push us over the top, and then make a little noise in the playoffs if we get there. And BTW, if you think the manager blew the Cubs NLCS chances last year, I have to ask, when was Alex Gonzalez promoted to player/manager? Plain and simply, Alex Gonzalez blew any chance they had of going. If he fields that ball, Steve Bartman is just 'that one guy' that got in the way of Alou. And in game 7, the Marlins had the lead in the 5th inning and handed the ball to Josh Beckett. End of story. Any manager does the same if they have a pitcher throwing the ball that well and if he has had any rest whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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