How did Gagne lose his arbitration case

[Gene Honda Civic]

ya thats why it just boggles my mind why houston traded billy wagner

They were on the hook for 11-17MIL over the next two years to Wagner.

Wagner is due to make $8 million next season, the third in a $27-million, three-year contract he agreed to in January 2002. The deal contains a $9-million team option for 2005 with a $3-million buyout.

 

Plus they got Duckworth, and two prospects. And they already have Dotel who is lights out, to close, and Lidge to set-up.

 

So reviewing, they have a stud closer in Dotel. A quality set-up man in Lidge. And freed up enough money to go get TWO top starters.

 

 

It boggles my mind how you can question Houston's offseason moves.

[witesoxfan]

ya thats why it just boggles my mind why houston traded billy wagner

Well, for starters, they wouldn't have signed probably both Pettitte and Clemens.

[BrandoFan]

Brando,

 

You keep repeating the same part of the test it breaks down to multiple factors:

 

That panel must consider the player’s contribution to his club during the past season (including but not limited to his overall performance, special qualities of leadership, and public appeal), the length and consistency of his career contribution, the record of the player’s past compensation, comparative baseball salaries, the existence of any physical or mental defects on the part of the player, and the recent performance record of the club including but not limited to its league standings and attendance as an indication of public acceptance.

 

1) Contribution to club during past season (including overall performance, special qualities of leadership, and public appeal:

 

2) The length and consistency of his career contribution.

 

3) Comparative baseball salaries

 

4) The existence of any physical or mental defects on the part of the player

 

5) The recent performance record of the club including but not limited to its league standings and attendance as an indication of public acceptance.

 

Now you keep repeating number 2 one of the factors but lets break it down, I will use a scale of 1-5 representing whether Gagne was high or low in that area.

 

1) Contribution to club: 5, Cy Young, most recognizable player, is his teams most valuable player.

 

2) Length and Consistency: 3, Although I could lean to a 4 because 2 years of dominance at a position has to be considered consistent this day and age, but I will give him a 3 because I want to low ball it. Although his first 2 seasons were unproductive, once he went to a new position he was outstanding. Beltre has done less and been more inconsistent and was given $5mil by the Dodgers.

 

3) Comparitive Baseball Salaries: 5, As shown before Gange would not even be the highest paid closer. He would be in the same area as Wagner and Percival and I doubt many would argue that they would rather have Percival over Gagne.

 

4) Existence of Defect: 5, Gagne has no injuries and is a converted starter. No signs of being over used, seems like he is in excellent condition and is still young.

 

5) Performance of Club and Attendance: 5, LA is one of the highest attendance and over the last 42 years has averaged 2.7mil (Crazy but I found it on their MLB site). It is not like they are a small market team.

 

So out of a total of 25 points, Gagne earned 23.

 

All Gagne would need to do is earn 13 points, or be atleast a 3 in every category, which means average in all 5 categories and the arbitration should favor him.

 

Since the mediator had no discretion, they had to either chose Gagne or the Dodgers, I find it impossible that they thought Gagne was worth less than an average player at arbitration.

 

The only problem with this is that lower players would never win arbitration cases because they would always rate below a 3, but they could easily impose a standard number that has to be met for a certain salary to be given out. Such as to get a 8mil salary you need to be atleast a 20, and so on and so forth.

 

I just think the consistency argument is weak at best because 2 years of dominance, is pretty damn consistent. In fact as a closer he has never been inconsistent.

 

SB

You're preaching to the choir in this case.

 

I said if any reliever deserves 8 Mill it would be Gagne.

 

However, there MUST be a reason he LOST. Stars do not lose often.

 

If Gagne could lose and if Santana can only get 1.60 Mill....then the panel HAD to have been considering their ENTIRE career.

[baggio202]

You're preaching to the choir in this case.

 

I said if any reliever deserves 8 Mill it would be Gagne.

 

However, there MUST be a reason he LOST. Stars do not lose often.

 

If Gagne could lose and if Santana can only get 1.60 Mill....then the panel HAD to have been considering their ENTIRE career.

reason he lost???...maybe he should fire his agent

[witesoxfan]

....then the panel HAD to have been considering their ENTIRE career.

Which is complete and utter bulls*** if you ask me.

 

Go by what they have done within the past 2-3 years, not their entire careers. Go by what their peers have done and what they are making(not what the FAs signed for)...for instance, Billy Wagner makes $10 mill, Mariano Rivera makes $10-$11 mill, John Smoltz makes like $10.5 mill, and those guys cannot touch what Gagne did this year statistically).

 

If we resigned Esteban Loaiza at the end of this season based on his whole career, the son of a b**** would be lucky as hell to get a guaranteed contract.

[BrandoFan]

If we resigned Esteban Loaiza at the end of this season based on his whole career, the son of a b**** would be lucky as hell to get a guaranteed contract.

 

And if we give him 4/30 Mill contract he deserves based on 2003 campaign.....and he reverts to his old 4.60 ERA underachieving self, we be f***ED.

 

I could see their point: how is it fair that Rivera put up his dominating numbers for almost 10 years straight while Gagne has been dominating only for only 2.....and yet they both get the same money? Hell, it was Gagne's FIRST year of arbit eligibility; he'll have MORE chances to get his payday later on.

 

Nevermind "fair".....how KRAZY from the BUSINE$$ standpoint would you be to pay him 11 Mill based on ONE awesome season? Bobby Thigpen had that one dominant year....and was out of baseball in 2 years.

 

From the hitter's side, Brady Anderson had a HOF year in 1996, easily as good as Griffey. Should he have asked and gotten Griffey money? Come on.

 

Gagne got shafted, no doubt. But, I could certainly see what the conservative arbiters were thinking.

 

Same with Santana.

 

Same might happen with Dotel and Mota, and could have happened to Guardado and Hawkins theoretically.

[witesoxfan]

And if we give him 4/30 Mill contract he deserves based on 2003 campaign.....and he reverts to his old 4.60 ERA underachieving self, we be f***ED.

 

I could see their point:  how is it fair that Rivera put up his dominating numbers for almost 10 years straight while Gagne has been dominating only for only 2.....and yet they both get the same money? Hell, it was Gagne's FIRST year of arbit eligibility; he'll have MORE chances to get his payday later on.

 

Nevermind "fair".....how KRAZY from the bysiness standpoint would you be to pay him 11 Mill based on truly awesome season? Bobby Thigpen had that one dominant year....and was out of baseball in 2 years.

 

From the hitter's side, Brady Anderson had a HOF year in 1996, easily as good as Griffey.  Should he have asked and gotten Griffey money?

 

Gagne got shafted, no doubt. But, I could certainly see what the arbitors were thinking. 

 

Same with Santana.

 

Same might happen with Dotel and Mota, and could have happened to Guardado and Hawkins theoretically.

Exactly right with Loaiza.

 

However, with Gagne, he was not asking for $10 mill. He was aksing for $8 mill. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Foulke not get 3-years, $21 mill from Boston? That's $7 mill a year. Gagne has been so insanely dominant as a closer, including winning a Cy Young, and he only gets $5 mill? I still think the arbitrator ruled wrong...Gagne should have easily won. He is not exactly in the Rivera echelon of pitchers just yet, but you give him 2 more years like this, and I say he is in, and he's worth $10-12 mill on the open market.

 

$8 mill is actually the middle ground, and I'm not sure if that's what Gagne's agent was looking at or if that just ended up like that, but I personally think it was a wise choice in figures, and they just flat out got screwed over. I do think that if he asks for $7-7.5 mill, he probably wins.

 

And yes, it would be insane to pay a guy for one awesome season. Cleveland would still probably be paying for Joe Charboneau(assuming he would have done that within the past 5 years and you correctly adjust his stats....yeah, they'd pretty much be f***ed...he probably would have been a 35 homer guy in his rookie year and he'd be gone by now). And for a real case of this happening....I bet the Twinkies are kicking themselves right now for giving both Radke a $9 mill a year deal and giving Mays guaranteed money in the first place. They owe Radke $10 mill this year(the final year of the deal), and they owe Mays about $5.75 mill this year and $7.25 in 05...Radke was something like 12-16 in 2000(the year he signed the contract), and Mays has literally had only one good year, 2001 where he went 17-13 with a 3.16 ERA in 233 innings, and that is it.

[YASNY]

The reason he lost is that the Dodgers presented a case to the arbitors that Gagne should be paid $5M than Gagne's agent presented stating that he should make $8M.

 

It's that simple. Both sides present their case and the arbitor picks which one he feels has more merit.

[Pastime]

Since the Dodgers saved 3 million on the Gagne decision, they are now monetarily able to trade for Paul Konerko.

 

[upnorthsox]

The reason that Gagne lost is that because he was only a first yr eligible arb case and only like contracts for comparison(ie pitchers in their 1st yr of arb or less) are considered. In that respect his $8 mil request was way out of line(by almost double) and the dodgers simply had to use Mariano Rivera's $4.75 mil contract in his 1st yr of arb as comparison and they had it won. A terrible job of overreaching by his agent(Bor-ass) when he had a good chance at winning with a $6.5 mil request.

[Rex Hudler]

The reason that Gagne lost is that because he was only a first yr eligible arb case and only like contracts for comparison(ie pitchers in their 1st yr of arb or less) are considered. In that respect his $8 mil request was way out of line(by almost double) and the dodgers simply had to use Mariano Rivera's $4.75 mil contract in his 1st yr of arb as comparison and they had it won. A terrible job of overreaching by his agent(Bor-ass) when he had a good chance at winning with a $6.5 mil request.

Most situations get settled without ever going to arbitration. Boras more than likely submitted a high figure with the intent of getting the Dodgers to settle for somewhere in between, like that $6.5 million figure. Many times teams and players split the difference.

 

The Dodgers called his bluff and went to arbitration, a process teams generally like to avoid.

[upnorthsox]

The Dodgers called his bluff and went to arbitration, a process teams generally like to avoid.

 

 

Teams have been doing it consistently lately though(and thus the reason they're winning so many). I do agree it could have been a negotiating ploy by the Ass. Good point.

[CubKilla]

Botch is making more than Gagne in '04?

 

That's pathetic. More good news now for Reinsy. Gagne got screwed!

[witesoxfan]

Botch is making more than Gagne in '04? 

 

That's pathetic. More good news now for Reinsy. Gagne got screwed!

Either Gagne got screwed, Koch is being overpaid beyond belief, or both.

 

I'll vote for both.

 

BTW, nice to see you back killa

[supernuke]

the existence of any physical or mental defects

 

He's a closer, all closers are head cases, the Dodgers say he must have a mental defect to be a closer and they win the case. sounds simple enough to me.