Sox minor leaguers

[Cerbaho-WG]

TO:  LDF.  Right on.  Where do we put them?  That's why we should not be in the market for more slugs like Rick White.  (I do not put the Flasher in that category)

most of the pitching prospect are about 1 yr from being ready, except for maybe rauch.

Most of our "good" pitching prospects are mulling around A ball, or just made AA. I'd say wait 2+ years before you see anything out of them.

[Chisoxfn]

Were going to have one helluva rotation!

The prospects that are going to be ready soon are why I believe we are going to dominate the central for the next 10 years.

 

Hopefully with Jim and co. leading the way.

 

but Jim will prolly win 20 games, a cy young, and leave the organization, because JR wont pay him the money he's worth.

Cleveland's farm system is better than ours, as of now. Too many high level prospects (in AA, AAA) to pass up, compared to our high level prospects who are in A ball.

The Expos really helped the Tribe out.

[Rex Hudler]

On Munoz:

 

I don't buy that he lacks stamina.  He has not been a starter before, so how would anyone know?  The fact that he is smaller and isn't Mr. Muscles probably lead everyone to that conclusion, but who knows.  I am guessing that he started in the bullpen because of his age and body type.  He pitched well for the Barons many times in 3-4 inning outings.  Stamina is something you build and it hard to build when you are used out of the pen in the 6th-8th innings.

 

The problem with starting him is, where do you put him and the number of innings he has pitched this past year.  Do you put him back in AA to start him?  Do you wait until there is an opening in AAA and put a guy who has never started before in the rotation?  It can be done.  Matt Guerrier was converted to a starter in 2001 after posting 26 saves in 2000.  It will be interesting to see how the Sox handle him.

 

And for what it is worth, his stuff is quite nasty.   He just smiles all the time and gets people out.  I liked watching him pitch.

In the very last sentence were you referring to Guerrier or Munoz?

 

Also, do you get to watch quite a few Birmingham games?

 

Thanks for all your comments on those prospects. I liked Guerrier in spring last year. I was angered when they dealt him for Marte and Edwin Yan, but in retrospect it looks like a good move. Marte is filthy while Yan has amazing speed and could turn into a pretty good 2nd baseman, although he has a ways to go.

My point is on Munoz stamina...... Of course he is going to run out of gas after a certain point if you never use him or train to go past that point. He pitched effectively several times for three innings and four once or twice. Never did they ask him to go longer than that, so no one should expect him to be able to pitch 7 innings. You have to build up to that, ala they way they work starters in ST.

 

I guess technically the fact that he didn't have the stamina is correct, but if you don't ever give the guy an opportunity or work him up to that, then you expect him to drop off after so many pitchers. It shouldn't be a surprise.

 

My very last sentence was that I liked to watch that guy pitch. I was referring to Munoz, but it would apply to Guerrier as well.

 

I see lots of Birmingham games, so I am very familiar with all of the players that have come through in recent years.

[Chisoxfn]

On Munoz:

 

I don't buy that he lacks stamina.  He has not been a starter before, so how would anyone know?  The fact that he is smaller and isn't Mr. Muscles probably lead everyone to that conclusion, but who knows.  I am guessing that he started in the bullpen because of his age and body type.  He pitched well for the Barons many times in 3-4 inning outings.  Stamina is something you build and it hard to build when you are used out of the pen in the 6th-8th innings.

 

The problem with starting him is, where do you put him and the number of innings he has pitched this past year.  Do you put him back in AA to start him?  Do you wait until there is an opening in AAA and put a guy who has never started before in the rotation?  It can be done.  Matt Guerrier was converted to a starter in 2001 after posting 26 saves in 2000.  It will be interesting to see how the Sox handle him.

 

And for what it is worth, his stuff is quite nasty.   He just smiles all the time and gets people out.  I liked watching him pitch.

In the very last sentence were you referring to Guerrier or Munoz?

 

Also, do you get to watch quite a few Birmingham games?

 

Thanks for all your comments on those prospects. I liked Guerrier in spring last year. I was angered when they dealt him for Marte and Edwin Yan, but in retrospect it looks like a good move. Marte is filthy while Yan has amazing speed and could turn into a pretty good 2nd baseman, although he has a ways to go.

My point is on Munoz stamina...... Of course he is going to run out of gas after a certain point if you never use him or train to go past that point. He pitched effectively several times for three innings and four once or twice. Never did they ask him to go longer than that, so no one should expect him to be able to pitch 7 innings. You have to build up to that, ala they way they work starters in ST.

 

I guess technically the fact that he didn't have the stamina is correct, but if you don't ever give the guy an opportunity or work him up to that, then you expect him to drop off after so many pitchers. It shouldn't be a surprise.

 

My very last sentence was that I liked to watch that guy pitch. I was referring to Munoz, but it would apply to Guerrier as well.

I agree with you on the stamina issue. In general I feel that is something you can build. From what I have heard from you as well as Jim Bullard Munoz can throw a couple innings and do it with ease. If he's getting tired after 3 or 4, then thats pretty good considering he's not a starter.

 

Plus, at such a young age, his body still is developing so he could easily add stamina if they decide to make him a starter and gradually stretch him out. The one thing they need to be very careful on is how they start off his season. He needs extra rest considering the heavy workload he had this year in Winter League and the minors. If they start him, I'd suspect he wouldn't become a starter till mid season or so. I think he can do it though. Either way, I think he's going to make a fine pitcher and the Sox will see him next year if he's a reliever; a little longer if he's a starter.

 

Once again, thanks for all this info Hudler.

[Rex Hudler]

On Munoz:

 

 

 

And for what it is worth, his stuff is quite nasty.   He just smiles all the time and gets people out.  I liked watching him pitch.

In the very last sentence were you referring to Guerrier or Munoz?

 

 

Thanks for all your comments on those prospects. I liked Guerrier in spring last year. I was angered when they dealt him for Marte and Edwin Yan, but in retrospect it looks like a good move. Marte is filthy while Yan has amazing speed and could turn into a pretty good 2nd baseman, although he has a ways to go.

I was referring to Munoz.

 

 

I like Guerrier a lot. I still think he will be a solid big league pitcher and his numbers last year were very misleading.

 

Would these numbers be acceptable?? The won-loss record could be better, but those numbers work for me.

 

Games Started 23

W-L 7-8

ERA 3.09

IP 140

Hits 115

BB 38

K 116

 

For what it is worth, those are Guerrier's 2002 numbers minus 4 starts. He had four horrible starts, and yes, I understand that every start counts. However, I'd rather have a guy who pitches great 23 out of 27 times and horribly four times, than a starter who is just average all year long.

[Chisoxfn]

On Munoz:

 

 

 

And for what it is worth, his stuff is quite nasty.   He just smiles all the time and gets people out.  I liked watching him pitch.

In the very last sentence were you referring to Guerrier or Munoz?

 

 

Thanks for all your comments on those prospects. I liked Guerrier in spring last year. I was angered when they dealt him for Marte and Edwin Yan, but in retrospect it looks like a good move. Marte is filthy while Yan has amazing speed and could turn into a pretty good 2nd baseman, although he has a ways to go.

I was referring to Munoz.

 

 

I like Guerrier a lot. I still think he will be a solid big league pitcher and his numbers last year were very misleading.

 

Would these numbers be acceptable?? The won-loss record could be better, but those numbers work for me.

 

Games Started 23

W-L 7-8

ERA 3.09

IP 140

Hits 115

BB 38

K 116

 

For what it is worth, those are Guerrier's 2002 numbers minus 4 starts. He had four horrible starts, and yes, I understand that every start counts. However, I'd rather have a guy who pitches great 23 out of 27 times and horribly four times, than a starter who is just average all year long.

I'd definately accept those numbers. Inning wise it isn't too bad, maybe a little less for Munoz.

 

Guerrier was really good. He struggled last year in Pittsburgh, but I wouldn't count him out yet. I'd also like to see more K's, but the walk rate is very low.

[Rex Hudler]

welcome aboard and i hope to see a lot of your post, esp when the bham season starts.

 

so the point is, are we to judge bham by its win/lose record? which i think will be very good. are we to judge them by if them make the playoff or anything like that? for me, i wish i was there b/c i will be judging them with the development of the players who will be there and i do think they will do good.

I think you have to judge a Minor League team somewhere in between wins and losses and player development.

 

The primary goal of the Major League club is player improvement and advancement. However, teaching players to win and play into the team concept when it comes to winning is important as well.

 

I think Jerry Manual referred to this when talking about Frank and I am paraphrasing... He said that if players play well and buy into the team concept, then everyone wins and demand for that player increases. He was talking about what Frank's approach should be this year to maximize his market value for next year, should he decide to take free agency after this season.

 

Everybody looks better when the team succeeds. I know in 1998 the Barons had Carlos Lee, Jeff Liefer, Chad Bradford, Mark Johnson, Kevin Bierne and Brian Ward - all at least had some time in the Bigs. But that team sucked and it was a miserable season.

 

I have noticed just from talking to players around the park that aside from individual personalities, players tend to be happier and in a better mood when they are winning. That tells me that winning means something to them and that getting promoted isn't the only thing that matters.

[Chisoxfn]

The main goal is definately developing players. Still, I agree with Hudler that winning is every bit as important. You need to teach the team concept throughout the minors and when players enjoy winning and get used to it, it can carry over. You don't want someone whose always on the losing end of things, because sometimes they really don't care. This doesn't happen with everyone, but does happen with some.

 

I think the Sox are blessed with some pretty good minor league coaches, especially Backman.

[LDF]

welcome aboard and i hope to see a lot of your post, esp when the bham season starts.

 

so the point is, are we to judge bham by its win/lose record? which i think will be very good. are we to judge them by if them make the playoff or anything like that? for me, i wish i was there b/c i will be judging them with the development of the players who will be there and i do think they will do good.

I think you have to judge a Minor League team somewhere in between wins and losses and player development.

 

The primary goal of the Major League club is player improvement and advancement. However, teaching players to win and play into the team concept when it comes to winning is important as well.

 

I think Jerry Manual referred to this when talking about Frank and I am paraphrasing... He said that if players play well and buy into the team concept, then everyone wins and demand for that player increases. He was talking about what Frank's approach should be this year to maximize his market value for next year, should he decide to take free agency after this season.

 

Everybody looks better when the team succeeds. I know in 1998 the Barons had Carlos Lee, Jeff Liefer, Chad Bradford, Mark Johnson, Kevin Bierne and Brian Ward - all at least had some time in the Bigs. But that team sucked and it was a miserable season.

 

I have noticed just from talking to players around the park that aside from individual personalities, players tend to be happier and in a better mood when they are winning. That tells me that winning means something to them and that getting promoted isn't the only thing that matters.

man i am enjoying everything you write and i can't find fault in. can you keep us updated when the season starts and how our players are doing.

 

it great to read your stuff. many thanks.,

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

On Miles:

 

This is a big year for Aaron.  He was a bit old for AA last year and it was his first real breakout year.  Aaron is a solid player but he will have to step it up again this year.  If he can duplicate or come close to his 2002 numbers, then the Sox or someone will have to take him seriously. 

 

If he goes back to hitting .275 with 8 HR and 45 RBI and 12 SB, then he bascially is showing that he is a AAA player at best.  There are a lot of guys who can excel at AA and AAA, but never work out in the bigs.  Sometimes it is because they don't get the chance, other times it is because they just aren't good enough to take it to the next level.

 

My best guess with Miles is that he will end up being that AAAA type player.  He'll be solid at AAA but not spectacular.  I know Backman liked him and likens him to himself, so it may be a lack of opportunity that holds him back.  What hurts him is Jiminez/Harris/Hummel in front of him.  They will all get an opportunity before Miles, unless he just blows them away in ST.

hummel????? you are kidding right????? i have been watching him for a couple of seasons now and hes not that impressive..... by no means should his name even have appeared on the 40 man before miles.. if anyone needs more time down in the minors its hummel.........miles only problem is that hes always been sitting down in the minors behind someone.....first it was biggio, and since his arrival here its been durham/ harris.... i hope he does blow them away in spring training and makes the trip here.....the kid is awesome.......he deserves a shot.......btw how many games do you go to down there in birmingham? i go to quite a few each year when i come down there....

[Rex Hudler]

On Miles:

 

This is a big year for Aaron.  He was a bit old for AA last year and it was his first real breakout year.  Aaron is a solid player but he will have to step it up again this year.  If he can duplicate or come close to his 2002 numbers, then the Sox or someone will have to take him seriously.  

 

If he goes back to hitting .275 with 8 HR and 45 RBI and 12 SB, then he bascially is showing that he is a AAA player at best.  There are a lot of guys who can excel at AA and AAA, but never work out in the bigs.  Sometimes it is because they don't get the chance, other times it is because they just aren't good enough to take it to the next level.

 

My best guess with Miles is that he will end up being that AAAA type player.  He'll be solid at AAA but not spectacular.  I know Backman liked him and likens him to himself, so it may be a lack of opportunity that holds him back.  What hurts him is Jiminez/Harris/Hummel in front of him.  They will all get an opportunity before Miles, unless he just blows them away in ST.

hummel????? you are kidding right????? i have been watching him for a couple of seasons now and hes not that impressive..... by no means should his name even have appeared on the 40 man before miles..

 

miles only problem is that hes always been sitting down in the minors behind someone.....first it was biggio, and since his arrival here its been durham/ harris.... i hope he does blow them away in spring training and makes the trip here.....the kid is awesome.......he deserves a shot.......btw how many games do you go to down there in birmingham? i go to quite a few each year when i come down there....

Can I call you Hot or do you prefer Ms. Sox Chick?

 

On Miles I will have to respectfully disagree with a few points you made. I am not going to get into an argument over whether Miles or Hummel is a better player because for one I am not convinced that Hummel is going to make it and because arguing over whoever is better is very subjective.

 

Whether you think Hummel is good or not, you have to recognize that he will certainly get an opportunity before Miles, simply because he was a high draft pick and was paid a lot of money. We can argue whether that is right or wrong to no end, but the bottom line is that is the way it works and always will. So unfortunately for Miles, he is 4th on the 2B depth chart with the White Sox right now and that doesn't bode well for his chance unless things change.

 

As I mentioned, if he has another great year this year then he will have to be taken more seriously. But he is fighting an uphill battle at this point and has less leverage than the three guys ahead of him. I am not saying he will never get there, but I would feel comfortable betting that he will never be more than a utility type player in the Majors in the long haul, IF he makes it and sticks in the first place.

 

The problem with Miles is that his track record is not good. He spent 2 years in Rookie Ball, 2 years in Low A, 2 years in High A and 2 years in AA. That is certainly not a typical track record of a player that is going to be a starter in the Majors. Not to demean his ability, but he should dominate AA after 8 years in the Minors.

 

Saying he was blocked by Biggio is not accurate either because he never got out of Class A with Astros. He truly only had one other Minor League season that compared with last year, so two out of 8 isn't that impressive.

 

All that said, I am not down on Miles, just stating the facts. He is a long shot to get more than a brief stay in the Majors if any time, especially with the Sox. Miles had a great year last year and was a big part of the Barons winning it all. He was fun to watch and was a definite spark plug. I wish him well and hope he makes it, but I am not holding my breath because of the above reasons. I do like him though. Everytime I spoke with him, he was very pleasant and truly seemed to be having fun. Like I said before, this year will determine whether he has a real shot at the Bigs or if he is a pretender. Time will tell.....

 

Lastly, I see a lot of Barons games. I have seen as many as 50 in a year, but it does fluctuate based on how busy I am.

[Jim Fainter]

Rex: Miles' stats speak for themselves. How about his intangibles? Speed, arm, range, hustle, attitude, intincts, etc.

[Rex Hudler]

Rex:  Miles' stats speak for themselves.  How about his intangibles?  Speed, arm, range, hustle, attitude, intincts, etc.

Miles was a great AA player last year. He was decent the year before. He has only had two great seasons out of eight in the Minors, so I am not ready to annoint him the next great Sox 2B.

 

Some guys develop late and Aaron may be one of those guys. If he is I am all for it, but let's not lose sight of the fact that he is 26 years old and still hasn't seen the light of AAA.

 

Aaron hustles his arse off and plays solid (not great) defense. He was a sparkplug for the club and his intangibles rate high. There are lots of great players that don't make a big splash in the Majors or don't even get there at all. I have a good friend that spent 8 straight years in AAA and never got a sniff of the Majors except in ST. He could do everything Aaron can yet had more power.

 

Aaron may make the Majors sometime, but his odds are still long until he puts up huge numbers again and proves that he is a late-bloomer and that last year was not a fluke.

[Chisoxfn]

Rex:  Miles' stats speak for themselves.  How about his intangibles?  Speed, arm, range, hustle, attitude, intincts, etc.

I'm one of the Miles scepicts. Yes, he had great numbers last year, but I ask where were they all the previous years. Hummel put up some very good numbers down at AA himself and he didn't spend 8 years in the minors. In AAA, Tim had his struggles, but he still came on strong at the end of the season and then went on to have a very productive Arizona Fall League.

 

Miles has yet to see AAA and he's already been in the minors for so long. If this kid was in fact so great, I'd think he would have already shown glimpses long before. Of course there are the rare ocassions when a player gets overlooked or the light turns on late, if thats the case and Miles puts up similar numbers in AAA, then he will have earned his shot, but until then, I will list Harris and Hummell both ahead of Miles. I also put Edwin Yan ahead of him, only because I think Yan is going to become a very good player, but thats me just going off a hunch. I love his speed and I think if he develops his bat, then he'll be good.

[BridgeportHeather]

Bullard,

 

This is the first time I'm checking this thread, but I've been a long time poster with these guys! Let me be the next to welcome you here! I wish nothing but the best for you guys in Birmingham this coming season, and will be looking forward to seeing you all in the big club!

 

One note: I've seen Neal Cotts pitch myself, as I currently am a Junior at Illinois State University, which meant that I was a Freshman when Cotts was a junior, his last year here at ISU. You are going to like what you're going to see from him.

 

Tell him that I said "hi." If he doesn't remember me, just tell him that I went to about 20 games in 2001, and my RA was Andrea White, the baseball team's physical trainer.

 

Thanks, and take care! Keep coming back and join in on the fun!

[BlackSox]

Great stuff, Rex.

 

Haven't I seen you somewhere before?

[Bullard]

Rex, I am really impressed with your knowledge of the game and of the nuances and politics associated with minor league baseball. Actually, everyone in this post has a lot of insight and understanding of the game. That excites me because most people who are baseball fans dont really understand anything beyond the big league level. But everyone here understands the minors, the front office and everything else that makes this great game so great.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

Great stuff, Rex.

 

Haven't I seen you somewhere before?

thats what i was wondering too...........seems to me i read alot of that stuff in the game programs from last years playoff games.......hmmmmmmmm..............but either way... i am still high on miles and i hope he makes a great imperssioin out of spring training this year....i just dont feel that hummel is any better and more ready than aaron is.......its time for this kid to shine.. i hate the thought of him rotting his career away in the minor system because someone else was paid higher in the prospect chain, (which in its self is a stupid comment anyhow)......the best get to play and the rest get to stay, in the minors that is.....we'll see what happens out of spring..........i think there will be a few changes on the 40 man roster............

[Mathew]

Is it this Rex Hudler?

 

 

Either way sounds pretty good on this thread to have pulled some interesting points of view, great for the site.

[Rex Hudler]

Great stuff, Rex.

 

Haven't I seen you somewhere before?

thats what i was wondering too...........seems to me i read alot of that stuff in the game programs from last years playoff games.......hmmmmmmmm..............

Not sure what you are referring to HotSoxChick.

 

Black Sox was referring to seeing me on a different Sox message board. I am not sure what you saw in programs, but the things I posted were a combination of fact, stats, and opinion based on what I have seen, read and heard from people around the ballpark.

[Rex Hudler]

Great stuff, Rex.

 

Haven't I seen you somewhere before?

thats what i was wondering too...........seems to me i read alot of that stuff in the game programs from last years playoff games.......hmmmmmmmm..............

Not sure what you are referring to HotSoxChick.

 

BlackSox was referring to seeing me on a different Sox message board. I am not sure what you saw in programs, but the things I posted were a combination of fact, stats, and opinion based on what I have seen, read and heard from people around the ballpark.

[BridgeportHeather]

Rex,  I am really impressed with your knowledge of the game and of the nuances and politics associated with minor league baseball.  Actually, everyone in this post has a lot of insight and understanding of the game.  That excites me because most people who are baseball fans dont really understand anything beyond the big league level.  But everyone here understands the minors, the front office and everything else that makes this great game so great.

That's just one trait that splits Sox fans from Cubs fans.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

Great stuff, Rex.

 

Haven't I seen you somewhere before?

thats what i was wondering too...........seems to me i read alot of that stuff in the game programs from last years playoff games.......hmmmmmmmm..............

Not sure what you are referring to HotSoxChick.

 

Black Sox was referring to seeing me on a different Sox message board. I am not sure what you saw in programs, but the things I posted were a combination of fact, stats, and opinion based on what I have seen, read and heard from people around the ballpark.

oh really what other sites would that be? just curious because i like to go to other sites and get different opinions...............as for the other comment i was just refering to what i had read in game programs and such on the players and their bios.......alot of it seemed just like the stuff i had read and that was the connection i was trying to make.........didnt mean anything by it.........

[Rex Hudler]

Rex,  I am really impressed with your knowledge of the game and of the nuances and politics associated with minor league baseball.  Actually, everyone in this post has a lot of insight and understanding of the game.  That excites me because most people who are baseball fans dont really understand anything beyond the big league level.  But everyone here understands the minors, the front office and everything else that makes this great game so great.

Thanks for the compliment Jim. I have been around baseball a long time, playing, coaching and umpiring (all at the amateur levels). I have also had several friends play professionally, so I have an idea of what they go through and how hard it is.

 

I know enough to know that I don't know everything, but that I do see the game from many perspectives.

[YASNY]

This has been a great thread.