John Kerry

[mreye]

It turns out Kerry was no less two-faced about Kuwait 13 years ago. The New Republic's blogger Noam Scheiber credits TNR intern Josh Benson with digging up an item that appeared in the magazine's March 25, 1991, issue, quoting a pair of letters Kerry wrote to constituent Wallace Carter of Newton Centre, Mass.:

 

Jan. 22, 1991: "Thank you for contacting me to express your opposition . . . to the early use of military force by the US against Iraq. I share your concerns. On January 11, I voted in favor of a resolution that would have insisted that economic sanctions be given more time to work and against a resolution giving the president the immediate authority to go to war."

 

Jan. 31, 1991: "Thank you very much for contacting me to express your support for the actions of President Bush in response to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. From the outset of the invasion, I have strongly and unequivocally supported President Bush's response to the crisis and the policy goals he has established with our military deployment in the Persian Gulf."

 

[Goldmember]

[HuskyCaucasian]

Doesnt suprise me. He is a typical polition. He has no back bone and goes with what is "popular".

 

When it comes to wars, Kerry is for, then he is against, then he is for, then he finds out it is popular to be against, so he stays with being against. Sad thing is, he is still probably better than BUsh. He actually intends on fixing the US economy and keeping jobs HERE.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

[LowerCaseRepublican]

There's a difference between '91 and '03.

 

'91: Bush Sr. said he wouldn't invade, topple the government of Iraq and install a new US friendly regime because in his memoirs, he discusses how f***ing stupid and completely insane the idea would be.

 

'03: Guess the lesson didn't rub off on Jr.

[mreye]

There's a difference between '91 and '03.

 

'91: Bush Sr. said he wouldn't invade, topple the government of Iraq and install a new US friendly regime because in his memoirs, he discusses how f***ing stupid and completely insane the idea would be. 

 

'03: Guess the lesson didn't rub off on Jr.

What memoirs are these? The only book he's written was the "Letters" book and if that's what you're referring to, we must have read different editions. I read that he wanted to go into Iraq and get rid of Sadaam, but everyone around him, along with the UN just wanted the US to get them out of Kuwait. So, he relented and regrets it still.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

What memoirs are these? The only book he's written was the "Letters" book and if  that's what you're referring to, we must have read different editions. I read that he wanted to go into Iraq and get rid of Sadaam, but everyone around him, along with the UN just wanted the US to get them out of Kuwait. So, he relented and regrets it still.

Whoops. Sorry about that, it was a Time article...got my sources mixed up.

 

http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/bushsr-iraq.htm has the quotes and a scanned page of the article on it.

 

Here's the quote for those that didn't want to read all of the link:

 

We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.

[mreye]

Apprehending him was probably impossible.

 

But this time we've got him so it's an entirely different scenario.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

But this time we've got him so it's an entirely different scenario.

Not entirely different. I mean, it's still a very bitter environment over there towards US troops. The coalition (with the major world powers that is) has essentially fallen apart, Bush Sr. states this when he says "Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. (emphasis mine) Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome."

 

Like Jon Stewart said after playing a clip of W saying "I think we're welcomed in Iraq."...Stewart retorted "I guess the rocket propelled grenade is the Iraqi version of Aloha."

[mreye]

Not entirely different.  I mean, it's still a very bitter environment over there towards US troops.    The coalition (with the major world powers that is) has essentially fallen apart, Bush Sr. states this when he says "Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. (emphasis mine) Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome."

 

Like Jon Stewart said after playing a clip of W saying "I think we're welcomed in Iraq."...Stewart retorted "I guess the rocket propelled grenade is the Iraqi version of Aloha."

But it apparently hasn't destroyed it. It seems to have worked in Haiti.

[cwsox]

weapons of mass destruction

 

no weapons of mass destruction

 

against nation building

 

for nation building

 

against deficit spending

 

for deficit spending

 

against a department of homeland security

 

for a department of homeland security

 

against a 911 commission

 

for a 911 commission

 

against extending its deadline

 

for extending its dealine

 

I have released everything everything on National Guard

 

I will release everything on National Guard

 

I will not release everything on National Guard

 

don't even begin to go here Mr Eye -

 

the list of G W Bush flip flops could go on forever

 

if G W can adjust his positions so can everyone else or be prepared to get it handed back to you

 

ever see the Jon Stewart piece called Bush vs Bush? Running everything Bush has said against Bush saying the exact opposite?

 

you will oppose Kerry and vote for Bush but to be such a puppet of the Karl Rove marching instructions which ignore the biggest flip flopper in history is beneath you

[cwsox]

But it apparently hasn't destroyed it. It seems to have worked in Haiti.

oh yes -

 

I oppose Clinton having sent troops into haiti (2000 campaign)

 

sends troops into haiti

 

come on you are going to brag on bush doing something that Bush opposed in 2000?

 

is it just who does it?

[mreye]

oh yes -

 

I oppose Clinton having sent troops into haiti (2000 campaign)

 

sends troops into haiti

 

come on you are going to brag on bush doing something that Bush opposed in 2000?

 

is it just who does it?

This was a separate conversation and you're talking about 4 years. (Plenty of time to change your mind.) My original posts were 9 days apart.

[cwsox]

ok then - he supported the process of containment but not an immediate invasion - big f'ing deal

 

in letters drafted by staff

 

I never had a DWI/DUI

 

I will not talk about the past

[mreye]

"

It is not possible to overstate the ominous implications for the Middle East if Saddam were to develop and successfully militarize and deploy potent biological weapons. We can all imagine the consequences. Extremely small quantities of several known biological weapons have the capability to exterminate the entire population of cities the size of Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. These could be delivered by ballistic missile, but they also could be delivered by much more pedestrian means; aerosol applicators on commercial trucks easily could suffice. If Saddam were to develop and then deploy usable atomic weapons, the same holds true."  (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)

 

[saddam Hussein] cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction. This is not a matter about which there should be any debate whatsoever in the Security Council, or, certainly, in this Nation."(Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)

 

"Were its willingness to serve in these respects to diminish or vanish because of the ability of Saddam to brandish these weapons, then the ability of the United Nations or remnants of the gulf war coalition, or even the United States acting alone, to confront and halt Iraqi aggression would be gravely damaged."  (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)

 

 

"[W]hile we should always seek to take significant international actions on a multilateral rather than a unilateral basis whenever that is possible, if in the final analysis we face what we truly believe to be a grave threat to the well-being of our Nation or the entire world and it cannot be removed peacefully, we must have the courage to do what we believe is right and wise."  (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254

-S12255)

 

 

They all Flip-Flop. I just thought this was a particularly funny one considering they were 9 days apart.

[cwsox]

hey your guy passes out eatiung a pretzel by himself

 

can you picture GW putting on a pair of flip fops........ by himself??????????????

 

there would be one in is mouth and one up his

 

the assorted foibles of us all, let alone people in the public eye -

 

I am in no mood to argue/debate post quotes back and forth with a friend - some day when I am in a bad mood I'll post my favorite Bush-isms - and I will win that round! - but for today -

 

your choice -

death is not an option -

for president

Bevington or Manuel?

 

 

[mreye]

Easy. Manuel. I never had anything against him and was against his firing.

 

 

P.S. I resent the flip-flop remark, considering I can't wear them on account I only have one big toe.

[Chisoxfn]

Doesnt suprise me. He is a typical polition. He has no back bone and goes with what is "popular".

 

When it comes to wars, Kerry is for, then he is against, then he is for, then he finds out it is popular to be against, so he stays with being against. Sad thing is, he is still probably better than BUsh. He actually intends on fixing the US economy and keeping jobs HERE.

Thtas where I kind of disagree, while its great to keep jobs here, outsourcing is a pretty big thing.

 

US is an ideas economy and its basis is on efficiency and it gets bigger and better the more efficient we get. Outsourcing is a way to improve efficiency.

 

I think there is another side to the spectrum when you look at keeping jobs here in certain areas. You also want to create new jobs, but sometimes saving old jobs isn't the answer, but having the economy and new job demands come into effect.

 

There is a proper mix between keeping jobs in house and outsourcing, what is it, I don't know, but I think its a lot harder then Kerry seems to say it is.

[Chisoxfn]

There's a difference between '91 and '03.

 

'91: Bush Sr. said he wouldn't invade, topple the government of Iraq and install a new US friendly regime because in his memoirs, he discusses how f***ing stupid and completely insane the idea would be. 

 

'03: Guess the lesson didn't rub off on Jr.

Its been pretty greatly discussed that it was probably one of the biggest mistakes of Bush's presidency (Although If I recall he was for rebuilding Iraq).

 

I personally agree with that. I've heard that there was a pretty big debate at the time of whether they should of toppled and rebuilt Iraq. Eventually they decided not to, but many were upset about that.

[Chisoxfn]

What memoirs are these? The only book he's written was the "Letters" book and if  that's what you're referring to, we must have read different editions. I read that he wanted to go into Iraq and get rid of Sadaam, but everyone around him, along with the UN just wanted the US to get them out of Kuwait. So, he relented and regrets it still.

Thats the same stuff I've always heard. His staff was very mixed on the issue.

[Chisoxfn]

CW, I gotta say...the whole homeland security flip flop could really be looked at as an entirely different thing.

 

I think anything Bush said pre 9-11 in sense of security and such can be taken as a change because of what had happenned.

 

All politicians flip flop, although its my personal opinion of looking at Kerry's voting record that he does it a whole lot and the thought process of him is always changing.

 

When I look at Bush I can kind of see his thought process on the issues and I'm sure you see his thought process (I'm guessing its something like, He's just being his usual self - A Moron).

 

Personally I see and agree with a lot of things Bush has done and can't for the life of me figure out some of the things Kerry has voted for and then switched from.

[cwsox]

Jas, Bush was against the department of homeland security when the democrats proposed it - it got so popular he flip flopped overnight

 

he was against the airport security being federalized but when it had 70-80 votes in the Senate he flip flopped overnight

 

Kerry is a very good man.

 

if you make any sense of much of what Bush says, that would worry me if I were you!

[HuskyCaucasian]

US is an ideas economy and its basis is on efficiency and it gets bigger and better the more efficient we get.  Outsourcing is a way to improve efficiency.

I am really aiming my argument at companies that ship their jobs overseas where they can pay workers less. Not only is that wrong and unethical to me, it hurts our workers who deserve the job.

[Chisoxfn]

I am really aiming my argument at companies that ship their jobs overseas where they can pay workers less. Not only is that wrong and unethical to me, it hurts our workers who deserve the job.

Ya, thats basically what I'm almost for in a sense. I know it sounds dick of me, but in respects to certain jobs, while some people don't want to say it, were better off outsourcing because it means we get the products we like for cheap and at a good quality.

 

Now, if everyone out there is willing to pay a few bucks more for the things they buy at WallMart or Nordstroms or any other place that sells pretty much exlcusively foreign products then thats another story.

 

I just think there are a lot of other aspects then simply keeping the companies from outsourcing in a sense. Sure you could impose fines or fees to countries that do those things and impose higher tarrifs on imports to force companies to keep certain manufacturing jobs within the US, but to be honest, the US has priced itself out of those type of jobs in many fields and now people are having to learn new skills and its kind of an on-going cycle.

 

There should be a better mix between it and there are still plenty of manufacturing jobs within the US and such. I actually think engineers or computer programmers are probably one of the most outsourced jobs because the people in India are very educated and will do the work for a lot less and since its in the tech sector its really easy to have networks that basically connect ya to the US companies.

 

To add to this whole theory, if companies didn't hire illegal immigrants and instead paid legal citizens a buck or two more, you probably wouldn't have near the problem of illegals having jobs while not paying taxes, etc, which goes on now. Or at least many believe it is a problem.

 

I know a lot of people are worried that with a amnesty act, mexican laborers will come to the US and take more of those jobs because they would be willing to work for less then the Union workers or contractors make.

 

Heck, I know quite a few of the democrats amnestie plans call to be much more leniant and long term then Bushes and this would almost create more of a flaw with people losing jobs then outsourcing.

 

So to me I find it funny how they say we need to keep jobs within the US in a sense, yet amnesty would bring and reward people who were illegals with citizenship and they would now take jobs from some of the middle class people because they are willing to work for less.

 

Of course the one difference is, I'm assuming they would for once force the people to pay taxes. Should I mention the fact that the US doesn't ever enforce its illegal immigrant laws.

 

This will get me on another rant about how in California an illegal immigrant can go to school for less then I can, in fact, the state or should I say, we the taxpayers, end up paying for them. All this while the state is continually increasing its education fees for college. They are supposed to go up another 40% next year (This is after a 40% raise this past year). So because of having to fund and pay for so many illegals to go to school, it then forces some legal citizens to no longer be able to afford their tuition (luckily I'm not in this case and while state funding is alright, it doesn't help everyone and I for one think it blows that I have to pay more and others have to actually get forced out of school in a sense) all because people who came here illegally get a free education. I don't know if other states are screwed up like California is on this issue.

 

Anyway, I think I went on a few tangents but, had to get those things off my chest

[Chisoxfn]

I should add, that I have no problem with immigrants coming over here. I respect those that come to this country, like my great great grandparents did, so they could have a better life. And a lot of the immigrants that come over here work there ass off and do exactly that.

 

I don't respect those that come to this country and work here and take money, yet they don't pay taxes, welch free medicine, etc and it leads to good people who may not have the money getting hosed.