RIP: They died in Iraq

[Texsox]

Israel,

 

In addition to my questions a couple posts back;

 

What do you think would happen if all countries quit fighting a proxy war here and pulled out? If the EU, Russia, UN, US, etc. decided they didn't have a dog in this fight and went away?

 

I believe a lot of the violence is perpetuated by people from outside the fight. Like you have pointed out, the EU has helped Palestine and the US has backed Israel. What if everybody left. What would the region look like?

 

I believe you mentioned it would be suicide for Israel to lose the US as an ally. Did that mean that Israel would be over-run if the US wasn't there for Israel?

[Texsox]

Pretty much. The problem with launching an all-out assault on the "Palestinians" is that they (militants) hide among the civilian populations. The "Palis" seem to favor guerilla warfare, instead of a more conventional warfare.

 

This would cause substantial civilian casualties, and would critically damage Israel's (tenuous) reputation in the rest of the world.

 

The only solution that I see is, one way or another, Arafat has to be removed from power. He needs to be replaced by someone who won't kowtow to and cajole (and endorse and finance) Arab militant groups. These militant groups have to be dismantled and/or "emasculated" before peace with the Palestinians can be reached. The new leader MUST recognize Israel's right to exist, and do EVERYTHING in his power to protect that Right.

I agree that Arafat is a hinderance to the peace process. It seems to me that if all the Palestinian people want is a suitable place to call home and freedom to live, work, and raise families, anywhere, that could be made to happen. I can not see Israel objecting to anyone who wishes to live and be a positive contributor to Israeli society.

 

It all comes down to trust. Neither side has a lot of reasons to trust the other.

[israel4ever]

This is an excellant article...too long for me to reprint, but if you are interested, go to:

 

www.frontpage.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=11685

 

The article is titled, "The Palestinian Culture of Hate". It was written by John Perazzo.

 

This article is on-point with a LOT of what has been discussed here.

 

NOTE: Admittedly, FRONTPAGE.COM is a Conservative website. However, I am sure that many of you are open minded enough that you are willing to look at both sides of the debate, (except for Apu!). I do look at the (mostly laughable) Liberal sites Apu refers to; just haven't found anything there that I find believable.

[israel4ever]

Israel,

 

In addition to my questions a couple posts back;

 

What do you think would happen if all countries quit fighting a proxy war here and pulled out? If the EU, Russia, UN, US, etc. decided they didn't have a dog in this fight and went away?

 

I believe a lot of the violence is perpetuated by people from outside the fight. Like you have pointed out, the EU has helped Palestine and the US has backed Israel. What if everybody left. What would the region look like?

 

I believe you mentioned it would be suicide for Israel to lose the US as an ally. Did that mean that Israel would be over-run if the US wasn't there for Israel?

I believe that at this point, Israel has the military superiority to take out its Arab neighbors if ever or whenever it wanted to.

 

It is most reliant upon the US for economic aid to help rebuild it's economy which is failing, mostly due to the intafada. The inflation/unemployment rates are overwhelming and many countries have boycotted (embargoed) Israeli goods.

 

If the conflict ended, I believe that Israel has the wherewithall to get on it's feet and be self-sufficient.

[israel4ever]

I agree that Arafat is a hinderance to the peace process. It seems to me that if all the Palestinian people want is a suitable place to call home and freedom to live, work, and raise families, anywhere, that could be made to happen. I can not see Israel objecting to anyone who wishes to live and be a positive contributor to Israeli society.

 

It all comes down to trust. Neither side has a lot of reasons to trust the other.

Exactly.

[Texsox]

I believe that at this point, Israel has the military superiority to take out its Arab neighbors if ever or whenever it wanted to.

 

It is most reliant upon the US for economic aid to help rebuild it's economy which is failing, mostly due to the intafada. The inflation/unemployment rates are overwhelming and many countries have boycotted (embargoed) Israeli goods.

 

If the conflict ended, I believe that Israel has the wherewithall to get on it's feet and be self-sufficient.

I do not share your optimism if all Arab countries jumped in. War is money and money is war. Without a strong economy, it is impossible to fight a war and win. I see all the resources that oil money brings and it seems like a one sided fight.

 

But, the world will not abandon their interests and in many ways the Arabs and Israelis are puppets.

 

Oops, I need to add. If it is true that Israel has nuclear weapons, they could take out their neighbors and leave nothing behind.

[israel4ever]

If the MODS are watching/reading, I would be all for "killing" this thread.

 

As I said before, there are those of us on each side of the debate who will never be swayed (myself included!). It is a waste of time and effort to try to do so.

 

This dispute has been argued by Statesmen, scholars, media commentators, etc., for decades, nobody has ever come up with an answer.

 

Furthermore, since this topic is such a "powder keg", people tend to get emotional, and say hurtful, hateful things to one another.

 

Let's see what the other "posters" have to say about Killing the thread.

 

SB

[Texsox]

If the MODS are watching/reading, I would be all for "killing" this thread.

 

As I said before, there are those of us on each side of the debate who will never be swayed (myself included!). It is a waste of time and effort to try to do so.

 

This dispute has been argued by Statesmen, scholars, media commentators, etc., for decades, nobody has ever come up with an answer.

 

Furthermore, since this topic is such a "fire keg", people tend to get emotional, and say hurtful, hateful things to one another.

 

Let's see what the other "posters" have to say about Killing the thread.

 

SB

Actually, I thought it had calmed down to a decent conversation.

[israel4ever]

It's starting to!

[israel4ever]

I do not share your optimism if all Arab countries jumped in. War is money and money is war. Without a strong economy, it is impossible to fight a war and win. I see all the resources that oil money brings and it seems like a one sided fight.

 

But, the world will not abandon their interests and in many ways the Arabs and Israelis are puppets.

 

Oops, I need to add. If it is true that Israel has nuclear weapons, they could take out their neighbors and leave nothing behind.

Whether Israel has nukes or not is arguable; if I was a betting man, I'd say that they do have 'em.

[Texsox]

Whether Israel has nukes or not is arguable; if I was a betting man, I'd say that they do have 'em.

Most of the world agrees they do.

 

One of the amazing things to me is more countries have not successfully bought or built nukes. I would think with money all things are possible.

 

Oil, more than religion, drives the world's interest in this region. Put these countries in an area without a major resource, and this conflict would be a footnote in world history. It is a testiment to humanity and humankind's inherit goodness, that neither side has annihilated the other. The world has been referee here.

 

I have read predictions that the next World War will begin in the Middle East. The ideology goes deep. The rest of the world needs the oil, and there is money galore to buy weapons from willing manufacturers. The only hope for our planet is both sides learn to live in peace. With all the hatred and mistrust it may take a miracle.

[israel4ever]

I agree completely.

 

In fact, if the Saudis didn't have so much oil, I think Bush would have gone after them, instead of Iraq.

 

All of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi nationals, Saudis have funded Bin Laden's terrorism for years, and al-Qaida and other militant groups regularly train in Saudi Arabia.

 

I don't know why the Bush Administration considers Saudi Arabia a friend of the US.

[southsider2k5]

Most of the world agrees they do.

 

One of the amazing things to me is more countries have not successfully bought or built nukes. I would think with money all things are possible.

 

Oil, more than religion, drives the world's interest in this region. Put these countries in an area without a major resource, and this conflict would be a footnote in world history. It is a testiment to humanity and humankind's inherit goodness, that neither side has annihilated the other. The world has been referee here.

 

I have read predictions that the next World War will begin in the Middle East. The ideology goes deep. The rest of the world needs the oil, and there is money galore to buy weapons from willing manufacturers. The only hope for our planet is both sides learn to live in peace. With all the hatred and mistrust it may take a miracle.

With out the oil in the middle east, we would care about them about as much as we care about the ethnic slaughters that have gone on in many countries in Africa in the 90's, into the 2000's. Outside of a precious few people, no one realizes how many people have died, and are dying there. The number of dead just from civil wars is in the millions, from just the 90's. Can anywhere else in the world say that? No. How many US troops are there. Very little. How many UN troops are there? Even less. How about disease? Kids are dying with diseases that were curable decades ago. AIDS is ravaging the continent. Misinformation about diseases is only exaserbating the problem. No where else in the world has experienced anything remotely like this in the 20th century.

 

I honestly believe if it were a predominantly white continent we would have sent troops there long ago.

 

Sorry Africa is a pet peeve of mine. It is an ignored continent that holds about 20% of the world population.

[Texsox]

I agree completely.

 

In fact, if the Saudis didn't have so much oil, I think Bush would have gone after them, instead of Iraq.

 

All of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi nationals, Saudis have funded Bin Laden's terrorism for years, and al-Qaida and other militant groups regularly train in Saudi Arabia.

 

I don't know why the Bush Administration considers Saudi Arabia a friend of the US.

I have a problem with taking action against a country for the crimes of their citizens. If for example Veigh had bombed a building in China instead of Oklahoma, I would be pissed if the Chinese decided they were justified in bombing the US. I think we need to prove it is official government action before attacking a sovereign nation,

[Texsox]

With out the oil in the middle east, we would care about them about as much as we care about the ethnic slaughters that have gone on in many countries in Africa in the 90's, into the 2000's.  Outside of a precious few people, no one realizes how many people have died, and are dying there.  The number of dead just from civil wars is in the millions, from just the 90's.  Can anywhere else in the world say that?  No.  How many US troops are there.  Very little.  How many UN troops are there?  Even less.  How about disease?  Kids are dying with diseases that were curable decades ago.  AIDS is ravaging the continent.  Misinformation about diseases is only exaserbating the problem.    No where else in the world has experienced anything remotely like this in the 20th century.

 

I honestly believe if it were a predominantly white continent we would have sent troops there long ago.

 

Sorry Africa is a pet peeve of mine.  It is an ignored continent that holds about 20% of the world population.

It is all about resources. As soon as we help one area, another needs help. You are correct that Africa has not been thrust onto center stage. Perhaps if cars were fueled by diamonds we would care.

 

Sadly, I was about to write that I didn't think it was a racial factor, but I do agree. If it was a whiter shade of pale, we would care more.

[israel4ever]

Just saw the report on CNN...seems like there's a little bit of unrest in the disputed territories!

 

They (Hamas) might just come out in the open and try to fight the IDF (I hope). Those militant nuts have got to go!

[israel4ever]

With out the oil in the middle east, we would care about them about as much as we care about the ethnic slaughters that have gone on in many countries in Africa in the 90's, into the 2000's.  Outside of a precious few people, no one realizes how many people have died, and are dying there.  The number of dead just from civil wars is in the millions, from just the 90's.  Can anywhere else in the world say that?  No.  How many US troops are there.  Very little.  How many UN troops are there?  Even less.  How about disease?  Kids are dying with diseases that were curable decades ago.  AIDS is ravaging the continent.  Misinformation about diseases is only exaserbating the problem.    No where else in the world has experienced anything remotely like this in the 20th century.

 

I honestly believe if it were a predominantly white continent we would have sent troops there long ago.

 

Sorry Africa is a pet peeve of mine.  It is an ignored continent that holds about 20% of the world population.

You're absolutely right.

 

If Africa were "oil-rich", we'd have bailed them out a long time ago. What the Africans have to "live" with is deplorable.

[southsider2k5]

It is all about resources. As soon as we help one area, another needs help. You are correct that Africa has not been thrust onto center stage. Perhaps if cars were fueled by diamonds we would care.

 

Sadly, I was about to write that I didn't think it was a racial factor, but I do agree. If it was a whiter shade of pale, we would care more.

I would respectfully say I don't think it is all about resources here today. Africa IS the worlds largest natural reserves of so many things it is amazing. Think about it... gold, silver, copper, diamonds, platinium, palladium, uranium, and huge oil reserves... that is right off the top of my head. If it is all about oil, why do we work so hard in the middle east, yet ignore a country like Nigeria, which has huge reserves of crude, amongst other things. Russia would also be much easier to buy off, as they always are net importers of food stocks, and we are the worlds biggest exporters of food. It would be an easy swap.

[israel4ever]

I have a problem with taking action against a country for the crimes of their citizens. If for example Veigh had bombed a building in China instead of Oklahoma, I would be pissed if the Chinese decided they were justified in bombing the US. I think we need to prove it is official government action before attacking a sovereign nation,

But, I don't think that you could have as far reaching terrorism as 9/11 or 3/11, without it being "state sponsored". Bin Laden is wealthy, but he's not THAT wealthy!

[Texsox]

I would respectfully say I don't think it is all about resources here today.  Africa IS the worlds largest natural reserves of so many things it is amazing.  Think about it... gold, silver, copper, diamonds, platinium, palladium, uranium, and huge oil reserves... that is right off the top of my head.  If it is all about oil, why do we work so hard in the middle east, yet ignore a country like Nigeria, which has huge reserves of crude, amongst other things.  Russia would also be much easier to buy off, as they always are net importers of food stocks, and we are the worlds biggest exporters of food.  It would be an easy swap.

Oops, I used resources in two different ways.

 

I first meant the discresionary time and money we have to fight a problem. We have X number of dollars for financial aid, X number of people, etc. Where do we send those? With an endless supply of time and money, we would try and remake the world to look like the US.

[israel4ever]

I would respectfully say I don't think it is all about resources here today.  Africa IS the worlds largest natural reserves of so many things it is amazing.  Think about it... gold, silver, copper, diamonds, platinium, palladium, uranium, and huge oil reserves... that is right off the top of my head.  If it is all about oil, why do we work so hard in the middle east, yet ignore a country like Nigeria, which has huge reserves of crude, amongst other things.  Russia would also be much easier to buy off, as they always are net importers of food stocks, and we are the worlds biggest exporters of food.  It would be an easy swap.

So then it IS a racial issue. That is disgusting.

 

You'd like to think that in this day and age, we can get past racial, religious, ethnic, gender, etc., prejudices. Maybe in another 2000 years. :headshake

[Texsox]

But, I don't think that you could have as far reaching terrorism as 9/11 or 3/11, without it being "state sponsored". Bin Laden is wealthy, but he's not THAT wealthy!

Palestinians have no state. I would offer them as an example.

 

As has been noted before, the 9/11 terrorists used US flight schools, should we be bombed? We have supported many people and groups who have become terrorists in the world's eyes. It is a small step, that many people around the world have made, to brand the US as the largest supporter of terrorists around. If you factor in "hate money" that is raised from US sources it may be even more true.

 

We are the techology leaders in coming up with ways to kill and maim. I really wish we would stop producing lethal land mines and deploying them around the world.

 

There are US mercenaries, ex US military trained hired soldiers around the world. Do I want to be judged by their actions? Are they US supported? Just because we trained them, doesn't make them ours.

 

There are no clear cut battlefields anymore. When the difficult decision is made to go to war, we are sentencing innocents to die. No way around it.

[southsider2k5]

Oops, I used resources in two different ways.

 

I first meant the discresionary time and money we have to fight a problem. We have X number of dollars for financial aid, X number of people, etc. Where do we send those? With an endless supply of time and money, we would try and remake the world to look like the US.

I would still say Africa is a much more worth cause. Many of their problems are easily solved, such as their disease problems. They have epidemics of diseases that have cheap cures. For under a dollars worth of medication each, right after birth, the lives of millions of children could be saved. There is a popular old wives tale in many areas that sex with a virgin can cure AIDS. Think about that. That little bit of "knowledge" has led to the rape and disease of how many people? In Zimbabwe President Mugabe has allowed the redistribution of land to the majority blacks, taking it away from the rich white farmers. The problem is that the majority of the people taking over the land, don't have the capital or knowledge to farm it, and now the country has desended into self-caused famine.

 

My point is that it would be much cheaper per life in Africa to save people, than say aid that we send to anywhere else in the world, where the problems we are trying to solve are so much more complex.

[Texsox]

I would still say Africa is a much more worth cause.  Many of their problems are easily solved, such as their disease problems.  They have epidemics of diseases that have cheap cures.  For under a dollars worth of medication each, right after birth, the lives of millions of children could be saved.  There is a popular old wives tale in many areas that sex with a virgin can cure AIDS.  Think about that.  That little bit of "knowledge" has led to the rape and disease of how many people?  In Zimbabwe President Mugabe has allowed the redistribution of land to the majority blacks, taking it away from the rich white farmers.  The problem is that the majority of the people taking over the land, don't have the capital or knowledge to farm it, and now the country has desended into self-caused famine.

 

My point is that it would be much cheaper per life in Africa to save people, than say aid that we send to anywhere else in the world, where the problems we are trying to solve are so much more complex.

I wonder how much the US is doing in Africa. I tried a couple searches and came up empty.

 

Type in US Foreign Aid into your favorite search engine and tell me which country pops up the most. I am not certain how every search engine rates the topics, but I was surprised.

[southsider2k5]

I wonder how much the US is doing in Africa. I tried a couple searches and came up empty.

 

Type in US Foreign Aid into your favorite search engine and tell me which country pops up the most. I am not certain how every search engine rates the topics, but I was surprised.

Wow. I used Google and was shocked. The whole first page was all about the same country. I won't spoil it for everyone else though.