YASNY Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I could care less about "fantasy" numbers. I'd also take Buehrle over everyone but Prior for a real life type pitching staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Rector Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Wood because he wicked nasty stuff and could be a top 10 pitcher in the league someday With Wood, its always what he "could" do instead of what he has done. Never has a pitcher been so hyped over such a long period of time based on so little actual accomplishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I think Buehrle's "decline" is a cause for concern. I hope he can turn it around, but those numbers don't lie. And his 2003 #'s can't be blamed on a bad start to the season because his numbers weren't that bad in the first half. His pre and post All-Star Break #'s from last year aren't that much different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I'll take the position of the cubs "apologists" I also dont recall buerhle posting a strikeout total above 134... And since the article which you determined the Sporting news was "full of Fecal matter" was in reference to fantasy stats, I WOULD take all of the starters over Buerhle, who has steadily declined in all fantasy numbers the past 3 years. 2001 3.29 ERA 1.07 WHIP .230 BAA 126K 2002 3.58 ERA 1.24 WHIP .260 BAA 134K 2003 4.14 ERA 1.35 WHIP .278 BAA 119K Strikeouts are OVERRATED!!! I'll take 15-20 wins over 300 strikeouts any day of the week! BTW, if I was making an all-Chicago starting pitching staff. it would go like this: 1) Prior 2) Buehrle 3) Loiaza 4) Wood 5) Garland I value wins over everything else! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I am willing to give him a month and then I want him optioned to AAA immediately if he stinks it up. I don't think optioning him would be a very good idea. He could be a huge asset of the bench, pinch running for anyone in a late inning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I could care less about "fantasy" numbers. I'd also take Buehrle over everyone but Prior for a real life type pitching staff. Amen Yasny! Right on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Strikeouts are OVERRATED!!! I'll take 15-20 wins over 300 strikeouts any day of the week! BTW, if I was making an all-Chicago starting pitching staff. it would go like this: 1) Prior 2) Buehrle 3) Loiaza 4) Wood 5) Garland I value wins over everything else! Can you read? It clearly states that this is based on fantasy stats, and in fantasy baseball, K's are very important. Buehrle does not have good strikeout numbers nor a good K/9 inning ratio, and he doesn't even have a good K/BB ratio either(which is somewhat important in fantasy baseball). All the Cubs starters are good in those categories. And if I'm selecting an all Chicago rotation, I have it as Prior Wood Buehrle Loaiza Zambrano/Maddux I'll take Zambrano's 13-11 3.11 ERA 214 innings or Maddux's 16-11 3.96 ERA 218.3 innings over Garland's 12-13 4.51 ERA 191.6 innings. But maybe that's just my common sense coming into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I'd try and get Cruz. I still think he'll be a legit pitcher. But Zambrono and Prior I take over Buehrle. Now that Wood signed that expensive deal, I wouldn't take him over Buehrle. Wood still has to get over that 14 win hump. Carlos is flat nasty and Prior is Prior. Wouldn't take Maddux cause Buehrle is better then him. There is a reason Maddux is going to stay in the NL, its because he knows he'd have an ERA over 4 this year if he was pitching in the AL. Plus, Maddux is near the end of his career, Buehrle is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Sounds like there's a lot of "Cub Love" in this site! :fthecubs :fthecubs :fthecubs :fthecubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Sounds like there's a lot of "Cub Love" in this site! :fthecubs :fthecubs :fthecubs :fthecubs What the hell are you talking about. These guys are just proving certain facts about stellar numbers. Hell I don't care if they are former cubs I'd take Prior and Zambrano on the sox any day of the week. Hell, Garland was a former Cub. You gonna go bash on him now? :dips*** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I'd take Prior and Wood too, but the rest of our guys are better than theirs!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I'd take Prior and Wood too, but the rest of our guys are better than theirs!!! Your going to tell me that Dan Wright is better then Kerry Wood or that Matt Clement or Greg Maddux. Same can be said for Garland and Scho. Now if Elo pitches like he did last year, I'd say he is the 2nd best behind Prior, but I'll wait and see if that happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLAK Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Your going to tell me that Dan Wright is better then Kerry Wood or that Matt Clement or Greg Maddux. Same can be said for Garland and Scho. Now if Elo pitches like he did last year, I'd say he is the 2nd best behind Prior, but I'll wait and see if that happens. Elo won 21 last year. Prior won 19. Elo's era was half a run higher, subtract 1 for playing in the AL and he's better. Since 2000 Mark is 49 - 34 V Wood is 38 - 28, Garland is 30- 32 V Zambrano is 18 - 21. Schoenwiess is 22 - 21 Clement is 26 - 23. Maddux used to be a great pitcher, no one knows how much he has left in the tank. Wright is becoming a very good pitcher. I'd take the Sox starters over the grub any day of the week. I hope everybody keeps lapping up the BS about the vaunted pitching up north. I'm going to win a lot of money from blue vermin fans this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Elo's era was half a run higher, subtract 1 for playing in the AL and he's better. In four of the last five seasons, the ERA leader for the National League has had a higher ERA than his AL counterpart. Subtracting 1 run from the AL pitchers ERA is hardly an accurate way to compare pithers from different leagues. Last year NL ERA = 4.28 AL ERA = 4.53 -- That's hardly a run difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 In four of the last five seasons, the ERA leader for the National League has had a higher ERA than his AL counterpart. Subtracting 1 run from the AL pitchers ERA is hardly an accurate way to compare pithers from different leagues. Last year NL ERA = 4.28 AL ERA = 4.53 -- That's hardly a run difference. That's also partly due to the lack of depth of great starting pitching in the NL(Schmidt, Prior, maybe Beckett...really there are very few great starters in the NL), but you are correct that there is not a run difference and that the NL's ERA is just slightly above the AL's(I used to use .5 as the measuring stick, but I found that to not even be accurate, so I went to .3, and that's a little better measuring stick). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLAK Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 The Brewers and Pirates alone are worth a run. Sorry, I was just ranting because ChiCubfn is eating the baloney from the media with a great big spoon. Last year the two clubs finished within two wins of each other, but the grub darlings are allstars, they have the best pitchers, fielders, hitters, hot dogs, announcers, beer, bunters, fielders, bullpen, starters and grounds crew in the history of baseball. I've been watching baseball for 40 years and that grub team is not that good, every thing went right for them last year and they still missed the series, I fully expect them to crash back into the depths of the greasy fetid mire from which they arose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 The Brewers and Pirates alone are worth a run. Sorry, I was just ranting because ChiCubfn is eating the baloney from the media with a great big spoon. Last year the two clubs finished within two wins of each other, but the grub darlings are allstars, they have the best pitchers, fielders, hitters, hot dogs, announcers, beer, bunters, fielders, bullpen, starters and grounds crew in the history of baseball. I've been watching baseball for 40 years and that grub team is not that good, every thing went right for them last year and they still missed the series, I fully expect them to crash back into the depths of the greasy fetid mire from which they arose. Lets look at it this way, their rotation is better. You can argue all you want, but I'd take the Cubs rotation on the Sox any day of the week. I'm just going to tell it like it is. Wood is definately overrated and I am not a big fan of Clement. He was so inconsistent last year and I think he'll be even worse this year. And their offense is as right handed dominated as ours. The difference is, Prior has all the things necessary to be the best pitcher in baseball, we'll have to see if Elo can do it another year. I love Buehrle to death if anyone wouldn't rather have Prior...then I just don't know what to think. I take Buehrle over any of the other Cubs starters though, that I will do, but not over Prior. And I am a Wright fan, but how you could take him over someone like Zambrono, I dunno. Zambrono has proven that he can be a sucessful starter in the majors...with Wright its all iffy, although I like him. Hopefully the Sox and Cubs can play in the series and the Sox can win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 And I am a Wright fan, but how you could take him over someone like Zambrono, I dunno. Zambrono has proven that he can be a sucessful starter in the majors...with Wright its all iffy, although I like him. That's Zambrano Jas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 The Brewers and Pirates alone are worth a run. Sorry, I was just ranting because ChiCubfn is eating the baloney from the media with a great big spoon. Last year the two clubs finished within two wins of each other, but the grub darlings are allstars, they have the best pitchers, fielders, hitters, hot dogs, announcers, beer, bunters, fielders, bullpen, starters and grounds crew in the history of baseball. I've been watching baseball for 40 years and that grub team is not that good, every thing went right for them last year and they still missed the series, I fully expect them to crash back into the depths of the greasy fetid mire from which they arose. You bring up Pirates and Brewers, I bring up Indians and Tigers. There is no baloney from the media. The Cubs were 5 outs away from going to and probably dominating the World Series last year. They have done nothing but improve over the winter. At this point, the little button inside your head that is common sense is pushed and you realize they will probably be better then they were last year. It is the same reason many thought the Sox would be worse(losing Colon, Gordon, Sullivan, Alomar, Everett, and Graffanino), but when you get right down to the nitty gritty of it all, you realize that Sullivan had little effect on the team, Alomar and Everett, while helpful, were not huge losses(as Lofton and Simon were not huge losses for the Cubs), Graffy is replaceable, and while it would have been nice to have kept Gordon, for $3.5 mill a year, he is not worth it, and having Politte/Shingo/Jackson is spending about $3 mill more wisely. Then Ozzie comes into camp with this great attitude, and me personally, I just felt this vibe that was happening in Arizona and being reported in Illinois all the way up here in North Dakota and I knew and still do know that the White Sox will have a great year. Now, to get back on subject, you consider all that only with the Cubs(who they have lost, who they have gained, and any other things they have done), and you figure they should improve by quite a bit. A rotation of Prior, Wood, Maddux, Zambrano, and Clement(the same Clement who could be an ace on some bad teams), is not only good, is not only great, it is goddamn scary. You add to that a solid bullpen(Farnsworth, Hawkins, Borowski, Mercker, Remlinger, and Cruz, along with other depth in the minors), and an underrated offensive team along with a great manager, and I could see them easily winning 100-110 games; however, two or three major injuries could bring them down to about 80-90 wins. Just for the record, I think both Chicago teams make the playoffs, both by 10+ games too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 You bring up Pirates and Brewers, I bring up Indians and Tigers. There is no baloney from the media. The Cubs were 5 outs away from going to and probably dominating the World Series last year. They have done nothing but improve over the winter. At this point, the little button inside your head that is common sense is pushed and you realize they will probably be better then they were last year. It is the same reason many thought the Sox would be worse(losing Colon, Gordon, Sullivan, Alomar, Everett, and Graffanino), but when you get right down to the nitty gritty of it all, you realize that Sullivan had little effect on the team, Alomar and Everett, while helpful, were not huge losses(as Lofton and Simon were not huge losses for the Cubs), Graffy is replaceable, and while it would have been nice to have kept Gordon, for $3.5 mill a year, he is not worth it, and having Politte/Shingo/Jackson is spending about $3 mill more wisely. Then Ozzie comes into camp with this great attitude, and me personally, I just felt this vibe that was happening in Arizona and being reported in Illinois all the way up here in North Dakota and I knew and still do know that the White Sox will have a great year. Now, to get back on subject, you consider all that only with the Cubs(who they have lost, who they have gained, and any other things they have done), and you figure they should improve by quite a bit. A rotation of Prior, Wood, Maddux, Zambrano, and Clement(the same Clement who could be an ace on some bad teams), is not only good, is not only great, it is goddamn scary. You add to that a solid bullpen(Farnsworth, Hawkins, Borowski, Mercker, Remlinger, and Cruz, along with other depth in the minors), and an underrated offensive team along with a great manager, and I could see them easily winning 100-110 games; however, two or three major injuries could bring them down to about 80-90 wins. Just for the record, I think both Chicago teams make the playoffs, both by 10+ games too. wite..pass the bong...I need some of the herbs your smoking. But hell, I'm down with your ideas...10 plus games is fine by me I do think the Cubs will have some serious injuries to that staff, Baker puts way too much work on those guys. Maybe with the addition of Hawkins, their will be a little less pressure on the starters. But the Astros are pretty damn good too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLAK Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 A rotation of Prior, Wood, Maddux, Zambrano, and Clement(the same Clement who could be an ace on some bad teams), is not only good, is not only great, it is goddamn scary. You add to that a solid bullpen(Farnsworth, Hawkins, Borowski, Mercker, Remlinger, and Cruz, along with other depth in the minors), and an underrated offensive team along with a great manager, and I could see them easily winning 100-110 games; however, two or three major injuries could bring them down to about 80-90 wins. I do think the Cubs will have some serious injuries to that staff, Baker puts way too much work on those guys. Maybe with the addition of Hawkins, their will be a little less pressure on the starters. But the Astros are pretty damn good too. Prior, Mercker and Remlinger are already down. Bakers a great manager? McKeon absolutely undressed him, Dusty is a moron. Clement an ace? Then how come he was 14-12 last year for the greatest team ever assembled in the history of baseball? They finished precisely one game ahead of a Houston team that lost it's #1 starter for a third of the season. Oswalt's back to 94 mph now and they added Pettitte and Clemens. Jeff Kent is healthy after missing about 30 games last year, I agree with Chisoxfn on them, they are pretty damn good. Also the Cardinals had all sorts of trouble and were still only 3 back. With that offense if they get any luck at all with the pitchers they are also going to be very good. The Blue Vermin are not going to finish higher than 3rd. Enough grub talk, I really don't care where they wind up. My divisional picks for 2004: Toronto White Sox Seattle WC: Boston Houston San Francisco Florida WC: Atlanta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 AH, finally someone else that likes the Jays although I doubt they wil beat the evil empire. Rippaldi is the best GM in baseball. I also got to add, despite saying all this nice stuff about the Cubs pitching staff, I think they miss the playoffs because of injuries. Baker is destroying his pitchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 AH, finally someone else that likes the Jays although I doubt they wil beat the evil empire. Rippaldi is the best GM in baseball. I also got to add, despite saying all this nice stuff about the Cubs pitching staff, I think they miss the playoffs because of injuries. Baker is destroying his pitchers. Jas, the Toronto GM is JP Riccardi -- You're going to need to know this stuff when you take over for KW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Prior, Mercker and Remlinger are already down. I've known Prior's been down...he'll miss, what, one start? Big deal. Mercker being down, I assume he's the 11th man on that staff, so he's no big loss. I have not seen where Remlinger is down. How did he get hurt? . Bakers a great manager? McKeon absolutely undressed him, Dusty is a moron. Which perfectly explains why Dusty was 5 outs away from going to the World Series last year. Clement an ace? Then how come he was 14-12 last year for the greatest team ever assembled in the history of baseball? If you knew how to read, you'd realize I said he'd be an ace on bad teams(anyone would admit that he would be the ace of a team like the Tigers or the Devil Rays, and quite possibly the Brewers even with Ben Sheets). They finished precisely one game ahead of a Houston team that lost it's #1 starter for a third of the season. Oswalt's back to 94 mph now and they added Pettitte and Clemens. Jeff Kent is healthy after missing about 30 games last year, I agree with Chisoxfn on them, they are pretty damn good. Yeah they are good, so are the Cubs, and I think the Cubs are better. I did not mention that Corey Patterson is back, and he will probably put up .280 30 80 30 SB numbers, and that's just a little better then Lofton. Also, Sosa should hit more then 40 homers this year, assuming he doesn't get hurt or is not caught cheating again. Also the Cardinals had all sorts of trouble and were still only 3 back. With that offense if they get any luck at all with the pitchers they are also going to be very good. The Blue Vermin are not going to finish higher than 3rd. The Cardinals will probably be very good as well. I just think the Cubs will be that much better. I can't help but see good things happening to the Cubs, and it's not something I like to see. However, I also see good things for the Sox as well, and Ozzie Guillen will do what Tony Pena could not accomplish last year with the Royals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Rector Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 I've known Prior's been down...he'll miss, what, one start? Big deal. Mercker being down, I assume he's the 11th man on that staff, so he's no big loss. I have not seen where Remlinger is down. How did he get hurt? Which perfectly explains why Dusty was 5 outs away from going to the World Series last year. If you knew how to read, you'd realize I said he'd be an ace on bad teams(anyone would admit that he would be the ace of a team like the Tigers or the Devil Rays, and quite possibly the Brewers even with Ben Sheets). Yeah they are good, so are the Cubs, and I think the Cubs are better. I did not mention that Corey Patterson is back, and he will probably put up .280 30 80 30 SB numbers, and that's just a little better then Lofton. Also, Sosa should hit more then 40 homers this year, assuming he doesn't get hurt or is not caught cheating again. The Cardinals will probably be very good as well. I just think the Cubs will be that much better. I can't help but see good things happening to the Cubs, and it's not something I like to see. However, I also see good things for the Sox as well, and Ozzie Guillen will do what Tony Pena could not accomplish last year with the Royals. Interesting how the folks who are the most optimistic on the Cubs chances are Sox fans..... As for Remlinger, his problem is a sore shoulder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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