Isreal4ever This one's for you.

[Texsox]

You have made some valid points as well.  However, I'm not so sure that the US was upset too much by Isreal taking out that dude. What was the word used in the official reaction .... "disturbing"?

 

I also feel that US could not object too strongly because we attempting to do the same thing with Bin Laden. Though, capturing and not just killing Saddam did lend us some credibility.

 

I think our official reaction to the assasination was just so much posturing.

I do not think anyone was all that upset, except the Palestinians. From a distance, it just seems all so futile.

[YASNY]

I do not think anyone was all that upset, except the Palestinians. From a distance, it just seems all so futile.

Now that is one point that we agree on 100%.

[southsider2k5]

Tex and YAS, great debate. Thanks. That is the way to argue a debate.

[israel4ever]

Because you are representing the Jewish point of view, I keep saying you Jews. Why should I attack you personally? Just because you stoop to that level, doesn't mean I should. I am known around the world as an American and wear it proudly. Unfortunately, some Americans give the rest of us a bad name. If you don't want to do that for Israel, then don't call yourself a Jew. But if you are going to stand up and cheer when a person gets assasinated, which is why this thread was started, then you have to listen to the people that are against assasinations and killing people. If you were a Palestinian, you would get the same thing from me for killing Jews. Both sides are wrong no matter how you want to justify it.

I didn't start the thread, slick!!!

[Steff]

I didn't start the thread, slick!!!

He didn't say you did... :headshake

[israel4ever]

I am afraid that ONLY Ishmooke, NUKE CLEVELAND and I4E know what's really going on re. this dispute.

 

PLEASE READ the 3/23/2004 Sun Times Op Ed piece titled, "Israel Owes no Apologies for Taking Out a Killer"

 

Fuleled by implacable hatred and thirst for blood, Hamas has massacred hundreds of Israeli men, women and children and wounded thousands more. In the last 3 1/2 years alone, according to the Jerusalem Post, 425 Hamas attacks killed 377 Israelis, 288 in suicide bombings, and wounded 2,076. The question perhaps shouldn't be why the Israelis killed the vile Ahmed Yassin on Monday, but why it took them so long to get rid of this mass murderer whose sole goal in life was slaughtering Jews and exterminating the State of Israel.

 

Among Hamas' mass homicides were the bombing of a Tel Aviv dance club, killing 21 mostly teenage girls, and wounding 120; the explosion at a Passover seder murdering 30 (mostly elderly) and injuring 140, and the bombing of a bus taking kids to school, slaying 19 and hurting 74. There's not enough space in these columns to recount the horrors Yassin inspired and planned. He was often called the "spiritual leader" of Hamas. He worshipped only a cult of death, one that's brought grief and funerals to thousands of Palestinian homes as well as harming Israelis. And now he is dead. Good riddance.

 

Of all the reactions to the killing of Yassin, the one that amazes us is this: NOW Israel should be preparing for the next terrorist attack. As if the Israelis don't do that every day. As if Hamas and the other murderous gangs weren't already spending every waking hour plotting ways to kill Israelis. Last week they tried to turn an 11 year old boy into a human bomb, failing only because their device didn't detonate on command. A few days earlier a couple of suicide bombers attacking the port of Ashdod tried, but fortunately failed, to get close enough to chemical facilities in hopes of blowing them up to kill hundreds, maybe thousands, of people. As it was they murdered 10.

 

The Bush administration, like most Americans, knows a terrorist monster when it sees one, so there was no condemnation of Israel by the White House. Much handwringing was evident in Europe over the detrimental impact of killing Yassin on the "road map to peace". Of course, no such map exists because Yasser Arafat, the instigator of the 3 1/2-year terror war, still harbors dreams of driving Israelis into the Sea. (emphasis added). He, naturally, called Yassin "a martyr".

 

The White House had no advance knowledge of Israel's plans. Israel does not need to consult with anyone in defending its people. Nor do we. And just as Israel killed Yassin, if we get Osam a NinLaden in our gunsights, we'll take him down. Now Hamas warns of attacks against America as well as Israel. We never doubted that Hamas and many Palestinians made common cause with al-Qaida. Recall the street celebrations in the Gaza Strip on 9/11.

 

The Israelis killed Yassin with a missile fired from a helicopter. That serves as a warning that, as PM Ariel Sharon implements his plan for a unilateral separation from Gaza, the long arm of the Israeli military still will be able to reach into the Strip to retaliate for terrorist outrages.

[israel4ever]

You are correct.  If is wasn't for the US and UK, Isreal would not exist.  Having said that, I also believe that Isreal has been the most maligned country in the world.  From day one of their existance as a nation, the entire Muslim, Islamic, Arab world has been yearning for the annihilation, as proven by the 6 Day War.  As for the results of that war, started by the world's Arab nations, the fact that Isreal expanded their borders on the field of battle, in a war they didn't start, well tough s***.  That war in itself justifies Isreal's claim that they need that territory to maintain their survival as a nation.  If they give "the occupied territories" back, it would be just plain stupid from a military standpoint.  It would allow any future attempt to "push the Jews into the sea" much easier because it would be so much easier to divide the nation in half.  Divide and conquer, as the saying goes. The Arab world didn't allow the Palistinians to settle in present day Isreal before there was an Isreal.  They were, as today, a refugee people.  So why, now, is it up to Isreal to give the Palastinians the territories claimed in the '67 War?  Why is the plight of the Palisitinians so important to the Arab world now, when it wasn't important prior to the birth of the nation of Isrea?  It's because it is militarily imperative that Isreal does not hold this land so that they can, in fact, be pushed into the sea.

Absolutely, 1000% right, Yasny!!!

 

[israel4ever]

Free thinking Jews who want peace at least . . .

All Jews (Israelis) want peace...but "waging peace" is a 2-way street! You can't have peace when other nations, peoples, etc., have declared war against you and are constantly attacking you!!!

[israel4ever]

Yes they are held to a different standard. That is the reason for all the US aid we send. We allow them to spy on us and then send them money.

 

Do you really think the world has treated Israel any worse than other countries have been treated?  Why do I even ask. I'm certain you think Israel is the most mistreated country in the history of mankind. When actually if it wasn't for Britian and the US they would not exist. And you and APU would switch sides and argue the others point. Only it would be the Palestinians with the country and the land and the Jews fighting.

Obviously, you didn't bother to look at any of the websites I suggested. Please try to do so, you learn some interesting things there!

[israel4ever]

I think the PA takes some of the blame in feeding the violence that is continually going on...radical fringes just like the extreme right wing Likud party in Israel.  It's true that the majority of the people in both countries...the Jews aren't big fans of the Likud party (there was a recent vote of no confidence in Sharon that almost won) and a lot of Palestinians are not big fans of HAMAS, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsas Martyrs Brigade, etc.  It's just the dire straights that has played so many people into the respective groups.  It's difficult to give a percentage saying that they are responsible for this quantified amount but I'd say it's about 30% Palestinian fault if I had to put a percentage amount out there. (then about 45% Israel and then 25%US etc.)

 

As for the suicide bombings, I don't condone them but I understand why they happen.  I can see the mindset of a person pushed to the edge enough to want to do something like that...almost like the kid who brings a gun to school and shoots up his cafeteria.  Strictly militarily, the Palestinians can't fight Israel at all (thanks to so much US aid to Israel) so they are forced to resort to stone throwing and suicide attacks.  I don't condone it but with the economic dire straits they are in and the active role that Israel is playing to not help them out (even going around Arafat to help everyday Palestinian Joe Schmoes), I understand the reasons that there can be a deep seeded hatred for Israel...just like many Likud-niks hate Palestinians.

As "your boy 'Dubya'" says, your math is fuzzy, Apu. Let me help you.

 

In assessing blame this should be the breakdown:

 

Palestinians 50%

Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq 50%

 

You can't put blame on Israel for being victims and targets. You can't blame Israel for trying to protect it's land and/or it's people from Arab aggressors!

 

You can't fault the US for supporting the side of the righteous.

[Texsox]

As "your boy 'Dubya'" says, your math is fuzzy, Apu. Let me help you.

 

In assessing blame this should be the breakdown:

 

Palestinians                                                                    50%

Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq        50%

 

You can't put blame on Israel for being victims and targets. You can't blame Israel for trying to protect it's land and/or it's people from Arab aggressors!

 

You can't fault the US for supporting the side of the righteous.

Is there anything that Israel cannot do to defend itself? Or is any tactic OK? Since innocent Israeli children have been killed, can Israel target innocent Palestinian children? Is it ok for either side to target specific leaders for assassination? Is it ok for either side to send missles into neighborhoods? If one home on the block has military personnel or terrorists, is it ok for either side to send a missle in, knowing innocent people may be killed?

 

It seems to me that APU will defend almost any Palestinian action and I4E will defend any Israeli action. And they both use the exact same arguments. He did it first. His crimes are worse.

 

Once again, it is so nice to hear that Israel has bever made a mistake. Their bombs and missles never strayed, never hit innocents. They have never once acted out of revenge. Never once lacked restraint in acting. Never once used violence against them as justification for violence towards the Palestinians. Always followed INternational Law. Oops, they just violated International Law, except I4E doesn't seem to think International Law aplies to Israel, only if Israel needs to be defended. If you believe revenge is ok, then you have to agree that Palistinian acts of revenge on the recent assassination is all fair game.

 

As long as both sides think they are justified in killing, killing will continue. And I think some people will be glad. Better death than to compromise.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Tex, I defend the actions of normal Palestinians. The ones not allowed to go to work because their farm is beyond the checkpoint and the IDF won't let them through or the people who get shot in the face like Tom Hurndall for no reason (he was unarmed and had no bomb...and had a bright orange jacket on too)

 

The Likud party, like HAMAS etc. don't want peace they wanna blow the f*** out of each other. But it's good that we know that ideas die when the person who created them is killed, right?

 

As for Israel being righteous? I guess I missed the memo that running over people with bulldozers, shooting unarmed human rights workers in the head, building a wall around a people (dripping with irony) and being thugs that murder people in places like Sabra and Shatila is righteous.

 

And you'd think that targeted assassination and Israel aren't friends especially when they screwed up murdering that innocent guy in Operation Wrath of God. Remember the egg they got on their face for that one, I4E? (I'm talking about the guy the Mossad thought was the leader of Black September, they wasted him and it ended up a case of mistaken identity and the guy was just a random schmoe)

[Texsox]

Tex, I defend the actions of normal Palestinians.  The ones not allowed to go to work because their farm is beyond the checkpoint and the IDF won't let them through or the people who get shot in the face like Tom Hurndall for no reason (he was unarmed and had no bomb...and had a bright orange jacket on too)

 

The Likud party, like HAMAS etc. don't want peace they wanna blow the f*** out of each other.  But it's good that we know that ideas die when the person who created them is killed, right?

 

As for Israel being righteous?  I guess I missed the memo that running over people with bulldozers, shooting unarmed human rights workers in the head, building a wall around a people (dripping with irony) and being thugs that murder people in places like Sabra and Shatila is righteous.

 

And you'd think that targeted assassination and Israel aren't friends especially when they screwed up murdering that innocent guy in Operation Wrath of God.  Remember the egg they got on their face for that one, I4E? (I'm talking about the guy the Mossad thought was the leader of Black September, they wasted him and it ended up a case of mistaken identity and the guy was just a random schmoe)

And the hit squad was treated differently, since they were Israeli, and received sentences from 2 to 5 years for the murders they served less than 24 months.

 

If I follow I4E's logic this is ok because;

 

There are no innocent Palistinians

Since this was in revenge for the 1972 Olympics, any method is justified.

 

How accurate is this account?

 

Linky

[israel4ever]

Is there anything that Israel cannot do to defend itself? Or is any tactic OK? Since innocent Israeli children have been killed, can Israel target innocent Palestinian children? Is it ok for either side to target specific leaders for assassination? Is it ok for either side to send missles into neighborhoods? If one home on the block has military personnel or terrorists, is it ok for either side to send a missle in, knowing innocent people may be killed?

 

It seems to me that APU will defend almost any Palestinian action and I4E will defend any Israeli action. And they both use the exact same arguments. He did it first. His crimes are worse.

 

Once again, it is so nice to hear that Israel has bever made a mistake. Their bombs and missles never strayed, never hit innocents. They have never once acted out of revenge. Never once lacked restraint in acting. Never once used violence against them as justification for violence towards the Palestinians. Always followed INternational Law. Oops, they just violated International Law, except I4E doesn't seem to think International Law aplies to Israel, only if Israel needs to be defended. If you believe revenge is ok, then you have to agree that Palistinian acts of revenge on the recent assassination is all fair game.

 

As long as both sides think they are justified in killing, killing will continue. And I think some people will be glad. Better death than to compromise.

For the "millionth time" ( I believe that NUKE, YASNY, and ISHMOOKIE have said it too), Israel has NEVER intentionally targeted Palestinian civilians, whereas that's what THe Palis ALWAYS do!

 

That's why they can't be looked at as moral equivalents!!!

[Texsox]

For the "millionth time" ( I believe that NUKE, YASNY, and ISHMOOKIE have said it too), Israel has NEVER intentionally targeted Palestinian civilians, whereas that's what THe Palis ALWAYS do!

 

That's why they can't be looked at as moral equivalents!!!

Is Israel trying to be the moral equivements of the Palestinians? Is that how they judge their behavior, by those of the Palestinians? Doesn't that make them no better than the Palestinians?

 

Is it intentional if you send a missle that is accurate to within 50 yards, into a neighborhood and it hits an innocents home instead of the person targeted? Is it intentional if you assassinate an innocent because he looked like a guilty person, or are these mistakes that Israel is allowed to make and still remain perfect?

 

If a Hamas leader is sitting in a car with an unidentified person, is it ok to kill them both?

 

I'm not saying these things have happened, just wondering how you define intentional? As I recall the US military speaks of unavoided damage, that not all weapons are perfect.

[Steff]

Tex.... :banghead

[Texsox]

Tex....  :banghead

Thank you Steff.

In summary,

 

I think the Israelis and Palestinians have been dealt a very unfair hand to play.

Both sides have been wronged by the other.

Violence does not stop violence

Humans are basically capable of great good and great evil, sometimes at the same time.

Some people are too dug in to compromise, and they are the negotiators.

There are people involved on both sides that want the killing to continue if it means they may get 100% of whatever they are after

Sending bombs and missles into neighborhoods is wrong.

Killing anybody is wrong, in war, killing the enemy is justified, killing civilians is never justified

Assassinations are wrong, especially if you have to kill others at the same time.

You cannot sink the to the other side's depth of depravity and remain pure

You cannot use one act of violence as justification for another and not be an aggressor at least once

Sometimes killing someone just maks you feel better

Sometimes watching your enemies mourn the loss of their people makes you feel better

Some people are blindly loyal

You can't wake someone who is pretending to be asleep

What goes around comes around, be prepared

The average Israeli and the average Palestinan have no control over this

Terrorists do not follow orders or have honor, they are criminals. They do not have any code of ethics

Soldiers have codes of ethics and honor. If the soldiers stoop to terrorist ethics and methods, they become terrorists. A uniform doesn't make the difference, behavior does.

[israel4ever]

Is Israel trying to be the moral equivements of the Palestinians? Is that how they judge their behavior, by those of the Palestinians? Doesn't that make them no better than the Palestinians?

 

Is it intentional if you send a missle that is accurate to within 50 yards, into a neighborhood and it hits an innocents home instead of the person targeted? Is it intentional if you assassinate an innocent because he looked like a guilty person, or are these mistakes that Israel is allowed to make and still remain perfect?

 

If a Hamas leader is sitting in a car with an unidentified person, is it ok to kill them both?

 

I'm not saying these things have happened, just wondering how you define intentional? As I recall the US military speaks of unavoided damage, that not all weapons are perfect.

It's called "collateral damage"...it's an unfortunate characteristic of war.

 

The Pali militants INTENTIONALLY hid among the civilian population, use them as human shields. You have to kill them (the terrorists) when you get a chance.

 

Maybe next time, they could ask the poor little terrorist to please go out in the open, so we can kill you without hurting anyone else. :headshake

[israel4ever]

Tex, I defend the actions of normal Palestinians.  The ones not allowed to go to work because their farm is beyond the checkpoint and the IDF won't let them through or the people who get shot in the face like Tom Hurndall for no reason (he was unarmed and had no bomb...and had a bright orange jacket on too)

 

The Likud party, like HAMAS etc. don't want peace they wanna blow the f*** out of each other.  But it's good that we know that ideas die when the person who created them is killed, right?

 

As for Israel being righteous?  I guess I missed the memo that running over people with bulldozers, shooting unarmed human rights workers in the head, building a wall around a people (dripping with irony) and being thugs that murder people in places like Sabra and Shatila is righteous.

 

And you'd think that targeted assassination and Israel aren't friends especially when they screwed up murdering that innocent guy in Operation Wrath of God.  Remember the egg they got on their face for that one, I4E? (I'm talking about the guy the Mossad thought was the leader of Black September, they wasted him and it ended up a case of mistaken identity and the guy was just a random schmoe)

All Likud and the rest of the Jewish world wants is for Israel to be able to exist in peace; that's it!

 

It is the Palestinians who want to drive the Israelis to the Sea. (Please (re)read the Sun Times Op Ed that I posted this a.m.). They are the "genocidal party" in this dispute!!!

[Texsox]

The Pali militants INTENTIONALLY hid among the civilian population, use them as human shields. You have to kill them (the terrorists) when you get a chance.

Does that mean you can take out innocent people as well?

[israel4ever]

Read the f***ing OP ED piece...you have no idea what the hell you're talking about!!!

[israel4ever]

Does that mean you can take out innocent people as well?

Again, maybe if the IDF asks nicely, the terrorists will give themselves up.

 

Gimme a break, Tex!!!

[Texsox]

Read the f***ing OP ED piece...you have no idea what the hell you're talking about!!!

And you will only believe things that have Israel as perfect. Anything that would criticize Israel is racist and wrong.

[Texsox]

Again, maybe if the IDF asks nicely, the terrorists will give themselves up.

 

Gimme a break, Tex!!!

Answer the f***ing question. Is it ok to kill innocent people if it means taking out a terrorist?

[southsider2k5]

Read the f***ing OP ED piece...you have no idea what the hell you're talking about!!!

Editor's Opinion=not fact.