Isreal4ever This one's for you.

[israel4ever]

Yeah like when they bulldozed twenty houses and a mosque because they heard a gun shot in a palestian town.

 

Here are some facts that may pertain to this discussion:

 

16% of arabs are christian

4% are jewish

1 of 8 muslims are not arabic

 

How bout this, What is Arafat and Sharon both steped down and left the peace process to a council of citizens, Then an election process would elect leaders that represented all of Israel. Instead of being seperate how about we establish one state with equal rights for all.

Good plan.

 

The problem is, there are polls that show that more than 3 out of 4 Palestinians do NOT want to live in peace with Israel; they want Israel demolished.

[israel4ever]

Camel toes?

Hilarious, Zach!

 

[Steff]

If you don't like me cuz you think I'm an asshole...fine. Lots of people probably agree with you. But, if you don't like me cuz I'm a Jew (I'm NOT saying that that's what you feel!), then I am offended.

 

Either way, have a nice day, Steff!

 

I've never, EVER made ONE comment about you being Jewish and your continued implication, regardless of the disclaimer, that I have is why I think you act like an asshole at times.

 

You're right.. you've apologized several times to me.. you think you'd remember my position on these matters..

 

You just don't get it... I bet you're a real nice person.. yet your condescending posting style seems to have you in the hot seat every single day that you post here.

 

Hey.. it your business, but I can't imagine, unless your motive is to come here trolling and cause trouble, why you would want to post here with all the negative things surrounding you here. Just doesn't seem like any fun.

[israel4ever]

I've never, EVER made ONE comment about you being Jewish and your continued implication, regardless of the disclaimer, that I have is why I think you act like an asshole at times.

 

You're right.. you've apologized several times to me.. you think you'd remember my position on these matters.. 

 

You just don't get it... I bet you're a real nice person.. yet your condescending posting style seems to have you in the hot seat every single day that you post here.

 

Hey.. it your business, but I can't imagine, unless your motive is to come here trolling and cause trouble, why you would want to post here with all the negative things surrounding you here. Just doesn't seem like any fun. 

I am a nice guy.

 

I feel like I've been "ganged-up" on since Day 1 of my discovering Soxtalk.com. So, I lashed out. I get emotional about topics that mean a lot to me, this being one of 'em.

 

I don't mean to condescend; it's just that I fell that a lot of times posters post things perpetrating that they know what they're talking about. When I post data to contradict their "opinions", I get abused. I'm not whining. I'm a big boy, I can take it.

[Pale Hose Jon]

I am a nice guy.

 

I feel like I've been "ganged-up" on since Day 1 of my discovering Soxtalk.com. So, I lashed out. I get emotional about topics that mean a lot to me, this being one of 'em.

 

I don't mean to condescend; it's just that I fell that a lot of times posters post things perpetrating that they know what they're talking about. When I post data to contradict their "opinions", I get abused. I'm not whining. I'm a big boy, I can take it.

I do have to give you your props in this thread. You have managed to not call anyone a racist, and i think the argument has benifited from a more civil discussion

[israel4ever]

I do have to give you your props in this thread. You have managed to not call anyone a racist, and i think the argument has benifited from a more civil discussion

Thank you.

 

 

:fthecubs

[Texsox]

I don't give a rat's ass what you or anyone else thinks or does; I don't care enough about most of you to give a damn!

Oh, I thought you were trying to enlighten us If this is how you react to people you do not

care enough about most of you to give a damn!

I wonder how you treat people you really care about.

 

I too would like to see Israel live in peace. I just also wish the same for Palestinians, and Iraqis, and everyone else effected by war. But that's just me, I'm a bleeding heart liberal. I value all lives the same. I do not assign a lesser value on someones life because a car with a criminal should happen to stop in front of their home. I do not value someone's life less because they happen to be on a bus and some homicidal idiot decides that blowing up innocent people will somehow get them what they want.

 

But here is a rats ass for you because I care.

 

And I am serious, you really do need to visit Israel and talk wth everyday people instead of getting all your information from web sites. Walk the streets, sit and have coffee. I know you will come away with better information on what the average person thinks. From talking with a friend whose daughter is there, many Israelis are unhappy with the assassination. Just like the US, there is dissent among Israeli citizens. Hard for you to believe, I'm certain. I guess when it's your ass being retaliated against, it isn't as easy to be a war lord.

[YASNY]

TexSox, there are times when civilian casualties are unavoidable. For example, in WWII we bombed many German factories. That was to take out the German's ability to manufacture weapons of war used to kill Americans. Did we know that there would be civilians killed? Damn right we did. Did a sizable protion of the citizenry of the United States have a problem with it. Hell no. Yet we knowingly killed innocent civilians.

 

So here you have a Hamas leader, who Isreal knows has been responsible for the organization and implementation of attacks used to kill over 200 Isreali citizens. He has 25 innocent Palistinian cilivians with him when you locate him. Do you pass on the chance to take him out because of the civilians? Well you might, but I wouldn't. I'd take him out by whatever means necessary and if any civilians are killed, well, so be it. You see, if I don't kill this son of a b**** while I have the chance, then there is a good probability he will continue to implement operations that TARGET Isreali citizens. Yes, I'd take out 25 innocent Palistinian citizens to keep this guy from taking out another 200 Isreali's. Just like the US took out German citizens to keep Americans from getting killed down the road. War sucks. War is hell. But when you are talking about your own survival as a nation and/or a race, then yes, self defense by any means necessary is justifiable.

[Texsox]

TexSox, there are times when civilian casualties are unavoidable.  For example, in WWII we bombed many German factories.  That was to take out the German's ability to manufacture weapons of war used to kill Americans.  Did we know that there would be civilians killed?  Damn right we did.  Did a sizable protion of the citizenry of the United States have a problem with it.  Hell no.  Yet we knowingly killed innocent civilians.

 

So here you have a Hamas leader, who Isreal knows has been responsible for the organization and implementation of attacks used to kill over 200 Isreali citizens.  He has 25 innocent Palistinian cilivians with him when you locate him.  Do you pass on the chance to take him out because of the civilians?  Well you might, but I wouldn't.  I'd take him out by whatever means necessary and if any civilians are killed, well, so be it.  You see, if I don't kill this son of a b**** while I have the chance, then there is a good probability he will continue to implement operations that TARGET Isreali citizens.  Yes, I'd take out 25 innocent Palistinian citizens to keep this guy from taking out another 200 Isreali's.  Just like the US took out German citizens to keep Americans from getting killed down the road.  War sucks. War is hell.  But when you are talking about your own survival as a nation and/or a race, then yes, self defense by any means necessary is justifiable.

Part 1 is exactly correct.

 

One side note: There is a difference in taking out a factory and taking out a person. This difference is noted in International Law. But setting that distinction aside . . .

 

You just proved my point. They knew innocent people would be killed. Doesn't that mean the innocent people were targeted? How can one simultaniously argue one side would never target innocents, then claim it's a normal sad side effect of war? The civilians were factored into the equation. The innocent make up part of the target.

 

Both sides in this conflict have knowingly killed civilians. Then they engage in a debate whether their side's reasons for killing innocent people is better than the other side's reasons. Then they cheer the deaths.

 

If you know you will be killing civilians, they are targeted. If you want to hide behind "we needed to take out this person and killing 1 or 10, or 100 women, children, and men civilians was unavoidable" that's fine but do not then come back and say my side never targets innocents.

 

Just to toss an idea for debate out there,

There are fugitives from US Law in Mexico, should be toss a missle into the cars of these fugitives? Some of these are the biggest drug lords. Should we send in an Apache helicoptor and take them out?

[IlliniBob72]

You just proved my point. They knew innocent people would be killed. Doesn't that mean the innocent people were targeted? How can one simultaniously argue one side would never target innocents, then claim it's a normal sad side effect of war? The civilians were factored into the equation. The innocent make up part of the target.

How do you figure? If you are attacking a factory and you know there are civilians inside, how are you "targeting" the civilians? If you took away the factory and left the people, the attack wouldn't happen, therefore you aren't targeting them. The target is the motivation for the attack, in this case, the factory, not the civilians. If Yassin wasn't coming out of that mosque, the attack wouldn't have taken place, therefore the other civilians killed were not targeted.

[Texsox]

How do you figure? If you are attacking a factory and you know there are civilians inside, how are you "targeting" the civilians? If you took away the factory and left the people, the attack wouldn't happen, therefore you aren't targeting them. The target is the motivation for the attack, in this case, the factory, not the civilians. If Yassin wasn't coming out of that mosque, the attack wouldn't have taken place, therefore the other civilians killed were not targeted.

OK. Would you agree that they are knowingly killing civilians?

 

If a Palestinian targets a soldier with a suicide bomb, and they know he is sitting on a crowded bus of school kids, have they "targeted" those kids?

[IlliniBob72]

OK. Would you agree that they are knowingly killing civilians?

 

If a Palestinian targets a soldier with a suicide bomb, and they know he is sitting on a crowded bus of school kids, have they "targeted" those kids?

Yes, I think that has been established.

 

As for your last point, that's a good one. I feel some responsible judgment needs to be shown. The target needs to be important enough to warrant "collateral damage". I can't burn down an orphanage to get rids of the cockroaches inside. Let's pretend for the sake of argument that the Palestinians are a nation at war with Israel. I don't think it's acceptable to blow up a bus of civilians to kill one soldier, but if Rabin is on that bus and the Palestinian nation feels it would help them win the war to kill him, blow up the bus.

 

If I'm a Palestinian and Yassin attended my mosque regularly, I find a new mosque.

[Texsox]

Yes, I think that has been established.

 

As for your last point, that's a good one. I feel some responsible judgment needs to be shown. The target needs to be important enough to warrant "collateral damage". I can't burn down an orphanage to get rids of the cockroaches inside. Let's pretend for the sake of argument that the Palestinians are a nation at war with Israel. I don't think it's acceptable to blow up a bus of civilians to kill one soldier, but if Rabin is on that bus and the Palestinian nation feels it would help them win the war to kill him, blow up the bus.

 

If I'm a Palestinian and Yassin attended my mosque regularly, I find a new mosque.

Also, do not drive by the Mosque or be on any street he could possibly drive on.

 

As I4E has pointed out, this isn't a civil unrest. I add, it isn't a war in the traditional sense either. You can't wrestle with pigs without getting dirty, to pretend otherwise is foolish. But how dirty you get can be controlled.

 

From what I have seen, and with an admitted bias towards Israel. The Palastinians have taken the low road. Yesterday's capture of a 14 year old suicide bomber is yet another example. But, I do not think it is correct for Israel to use the Palistinian actions as justification for their own actions. To be one degree of magnitude better than a terrorist isn't all that great. Imagine thinking you can do anything you want as long as you are a little bit better than the next guy. Gee was PolPot better than Hitler? Was Idi Amin better than Pol Pot? It's all bad. And please, I do not want anyone to think I made a comparison of Israel's actions to Pol Pot. I use that as an example of using a low standard to justify behavior. That guy stole millions, I only stole hundreds of thousands?

 

Israel needs to take the highest moral road possible and not give those that hate them anymore ammunition. I guess we can debate what the highest moral road is. At the minimum, follow International Law.

[israel4ever]

Oh, I thought you were trying to enlighten us  If this is how you react to people you do not  I wonder how you treat people you really care about.

 

I too would like to see Israel live in peace. I just also wish the same for Palestinians, and Iraqis, and everyone else effected by war. But that's just me, I'm a bleeding heart liberal. I value all lives the same. I do not assign a lesser value on someones life because a car with a criminal should happen to stop in front of their home. I do not value someone's life less because they happen to be on a bus and some homicidal idiot decides that blowing up innocent people will somehow get them what they want.

 

But here is a rats ass for you because I care.

 

And I am serious, you really do need to visit Israel and talk wth everyday people instead of getting all your information from web sites. Walk the streets, sit and have coffee. I know you will come away with better information on what the average person thinks. From talking with a friend whose daughter is there, many Israelis are unhappy with the assassination. Just like the US, there is dissent among Israeli citizens. Hard for you to believe, I'm certain. I guess when it's your ass being retaliated against, it isn't as easy to be a war lord.

I agree with you, Tex...I'd love to go to Israel, hopefully, I will very soon. (They need the tourist dollars.)

 

Fortunately, I get to talk to Israelis on a daily basis at work; most, if not all of them I talk to are sick of the "cycle of violence" just as you say. The problem is, when you ask them for alternative ways to meet with palestinian violence, they have no alternatives. They know that the PA are not "partners in peace".

 

So, the $64,000 question remains, how do you negotiate peace with people who don't want it?

 

If you're a salesman, you can't sell something to someone who doesn't want what you're selling.

[israel4ever]

TexSox, there are times when civilian casualties are unavoidable.  For example, in WWII we bombed many German factories.  That was to take out the German's ability to manufacture weapons of war used to kill Americans.  Did we know that there would be civilians killed?  Damn right we did.  Did a sizable protion of the citizenry of the United States have a problem with it.  Hell no.  Yet we knowingly killed innocent civilians.

 

So here you have a Hamas leader, who Isreal knows has been responsible for the organization and implementation of attacks used to kill over 200 Isreali citizens.  He has 25 innocent Palistinian cilivians with him when you locate him.  Do you pass on the chance to take him out because of the civilians?  Well you might, but I wouldn't.  I'd take him out by whatever means necessary and if any civilians are killed, well, so be it.  You see, if I don't kill this son of a b**** while I have the chance, then there is a good probability he will continue to implement operations that TARGET Isreali citizens.  Yes, I'd take out 25 innocent Palistinian citizens to keep this guy from taking out another 200 Isreali's.  Just like the US took out German citizens to keep Americans from getting killed down the road.  War sucks. War is hell.  But when you are talking about your own survival as a nation and/or a race, then yes, self defense by any means necessary is justifiable.

Very good point, Yasny.

 

Aslo I'd keep in mind that any civilians who stay with a close proxomity to someone like Yassin, aren't likely to be that innocent!

[israel4ever]

Also, do not drive by the Mosque or be on any street he could possibly drive on.

 

As I4E has pointed out, this isn't a civil unrest. I add, it isn't a war in the traditional sense either. You can't wrestle with pigs without getting dirty, to pretend otherwise is foolish. But how dirty you get can be controlled.

 

From what I have seen, and with an admitted bias towards Israel. The Palastinians have taken the low road. Yesterday's capture of a 14 year old suicide bomber is yet another example. But, I do not think it is correct for Israel to use the Palistinian actions as justification for their own actions. To be one degree of magnitude better than a terrorist isn't all that great. Imagine thinking you can do anything you want as long as you are a little bit better than the next guy. Gee was PolPot better than Hitler? Was Idi Amin better than Pol Pot? It's all bad. And please, I do not want anyone to think I made a comparison of Israel's actions to Pol Pot. I use that as an example of using a low standard to justify behavior. That guy stole millions, I only stole hundreds of thousands?

 

Israel needs to take the highest moral road possible and not give those that hate them anymore ammunition. I guess we can debate what the highest moral road is. At the minimum, follow International Law.

Tex...wouldn't the world have been a better palce had someone assassinated Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Stalin, etc., if/when they had the chance? Think of how many lives could have been saved had someone done so.

[israel4ever]

Violence begats violence, Tex. It's a sad reality of life.

[southsider2k5]

Tex...wouldn't the world have been a better palce had someone assassinated Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Stalin, etc., if/when they had the chance? Think of how many lives could have been saved had someone done so.

That is really shaky logic right there. You could turn that statement around and say think how many Palistian lives would be saved if Israel was gone? It doesn't add up.

[southsider2k5]

Violence begats violence, Tex. It's a sad reality of life.

And that is the problem.

[israel4ever]

That is really shaky logic right there.  You could turn that statement around and say think how many Palistian lives would be saved if Israel was gone?  It doesn't add up.

You could also ask how many Palestinian lives would have been spared had Arafat been taken out 30-40 years ago!

[southsider2k5]

You could also ask how many Palestinian lives would have been spared had Arafat been taken out 30-40 years ago!

You don't think there would have been another Arafat? And more likely it would have been someone more radical than him. Just like the guy that took over Hamas is self-proclaimed more radical than the last guy. And even 80% of Israelis now that it will result in more violence.

[israel4ever]

And that is the problem.

And until the Palestinians realize that, every time they committ violent acts vs Israel, that they will be retaliated upon, then they (Palestinians) won't stop!

[southsider2k5]

And until the Palestinians realize that, every time they committ violent acts vs Israel, that they will be retaliated upon, then they (Palestinians) won't stop!

I haven't seen Israel stop acts of violence either...

[israel4ever]

Golda Meir once said, "Until the Palestinians love their own children, as much as they hate Israel, there can never be peace.".

[Texsox]

I agree with you, Tex...I'd love to go to Israel, hopefully, I will very soon. (They need the tourist dollars.)

 

Fortunately, I get to talk to Israelis on a daily basis at work; most, if not all of them I talk to are sick of the "cycle of violence" just as you say. The problem is, when you ask them for alternative ways to meet with palestinian violence, they have no alternatives. They know that the PA are not "partners in peace".

 

So, the $64,000 question remains, how do you negotiate peace with people who don't want it?

 

If you're a salesman, you can't sell something to someone who doesn't want what you're selling.

Realize you need all the world on your side.

Follow International Law.

Do not stoop to your enemies tactics.

Be vigilent, very vigilent.

Try not to paint all people with the same brush.

Actions speak louder than words.

Don't over or under estimate what someone can do.

Remember there are criminals in every society. Just because Lee Boyd Malvo is from Jaimaca and killed Americans, that doesn't mean Jaimaca is attacking us. Do not start lobbing missles at Jaimaca or claiming their President should have controlled him. There are groups on both sides that are willing to take matters into their own hands and they cannot be controlled by their governments.

 

I was lucky on my last trip. I was part of a Church group. I was able to see the country from the perspective of my relgious roots. I also broke away from the group for a day to visit a friend's daughter. I experienced a small part from the perspective of a citizen.

 

We teach kids here to have a family plan in case of fire or hurricane. It's a half ass serious attempt by most families. There, it's serious business. She and her husband have multiple locations to meet up, and they both keep the list with them. Item 25 or so is his parents house in New York. Sobering thought what the world would be like if they ever got to that position.

 

You may also come away, at least many of us did, at how small and vulnerable Israel is. With their military success stories, they seemed bigger and stronger until being there. It's not a big country and after eliminating areas that probably cannot ever be settled and historical sites, it gets even smaller.