Texsox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 What do you guys want from me? "Gentlemen, get the thing straight, once and for all: the policeman isn't there to create disorder, the policeman is there to preserve disorder." hmmm somehow that fits in this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmookie Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 i4e i strongly support israel but we're just going to keep arguing about this because people feel strongly about it. I agree with what you're proving but some people simply feel the opposite way. There will always be people disagreeing, and no matter how hard one tries to convince the other side it won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Analysis: Yassin's demise could generate attacks abroad By MARGOT DUDKEVITCH Those who thought that killing Sheikh Ahmed Yassin would serve as a deterrent are mistaken, Dr. Reuven Paz, director of the project for the research of Islamist movements (PRISM), GLORIA Center, the Interdisciplinary Institute of Herzliya, told The Jerusalem Post. Paz warned that Yassin's demise could have severe repercussions not only in Israel, but will cause reactions throughout the entire Muslim world and lead to attacks against Israelis and Jews abroad. "We are talking about Muslims in Europe and the United States who identify with Hamas and its policies and recruit funds on its behalf. I believe that the same Hamas supporters abroad will also begin to recruit activists to wage attacks against Israeli and Jewish targets abroad, and we could possibly see elements affiliated with al-Qaida recruiting activists on behalf of Hamas. "The Muslim public is already angry due to policies adopted in countries abroad such as the banning of head scarves in [state schools in] France. One thing they are all united in is their hatred for Israel and this may well escalate," he said. "Yassin was considered a national symbol, he was far more moderate and did not rule out Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's disengagement plan. Without a doubt Sharon initiated the targeted killing, and if he believed that by doing so it would weaken Hamas's control of the Gaza Strip, he is mistaken," said Paz. "I can't see anything good coming out of it. I believe in the coming weeks we will witness an escalation in violence – not just suicide-bomb attacks, but attacks carried out by loners who aren't affiliated with any movement but seek revenge," he said. It is also possible that Yassin's death will lead to a further strengthening of ties between the Fatah-based Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad and Hamas, which have launched a number of joint attacks in the past and may well decide to continue, Paz said. Yassin, the founder of Hamas and its political and religious leader, gained strength as Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat's position weakened, turning him into the national symbolic leader, not just of Hamas but of the entire Palestinian public and among supporters in Arab countries abroad, said Paz, adding, "and now the entire Muslim world." Dr. Boaz Ginor, ICT's executive director at the interdisciplinary institute, believes that the strike on Yassin will not affect the movement's capability, which is already severely restricted. "Last September, in the botched attempt on his life, one would have expected to have seen a shattering response," he said. Yassin presided over the movement's charity and social infrastructure and issued instructions and political directives, all separate from the military operations carried out by Hamas, said Ginor. While sharing Paz's assessment that attempts will be made to launch attacks against Israeli and Jewish targets abroad, Ginor said, "We may see a rise in attempts to launch mega-terror attacks and attempts by cell leaders in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip to launch attacks. But I believe we will see a sharp increase in attempts by loners, those who are not sent by anyone but decide to act on their own," he said. "However, without a doubt authorities should remain alert and vigilant, particularly regarding the possibility of attacks abroad," he added. Yassin was not an ordained Islamic leader and not considered one in Arab countries abroad. "He was not authorized to issue fatwas, and the attitude of many Arab countries towards the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is no more than lip service," he said. According to Gilad, the former coordinator of government activities in the territories, the attack on Yassin will make remaining Hamas officials more aware that they will continue to be perceived as targets. Claims that Yassin was the group's spiritual leader are ridiculous, he said, adding, "There is no separation between the Hamas spiritual and operational leadership." The attacks carried out by the movement were carefully planned operations. Reality could have been different, said Gilad, had the Palestinian security forces combated terror. "The Palestinian Authority maintains tactical superiority. All that is lacking is a decision to crack down on terror," he said. Paz believes that Yassin's death will not hamper the Hamas capability as he was not responsible for the movement's operational military activities but rather dictated policy and issued instructions. According to Paz, Yassin's demise could mark the end of Ahmed Qurei's career as PA prime minister, and he will fall by the wayside the same as his predecessor Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen). "While there has not been much of a dialogue between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, there has been some activity in the background. Now Qurei cannot allow himself to enter any dialogue, support for Hamas will increase greatly and at the same time the Palestinian Authority will lose its power. I also fear for Muhammad Dahlan's career. In Gaza he is perceived as trying to protect Israel rather then the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip," Paz added. Dr. Abdel Aziz Rantissi is the most likely candidate to be chosen as Yassin's successor, said Paz, adding that Mahmoud A-Zaher is also an option. "Yassin was far less extreme in his beliefs than Rantissi, who takes every opportunity to express them. Yassin founded the movement's social infrastructure, giving charity, medical and financial assistance to the public. I believe we will see a collective leadership taking over until elections," said Paz. Unlike Paz, Ginor believes that Arafat's position will only strengthen with the death of Yassin, who has no real successor. "Yassin was not part of the movement's military operational activities but was an ideological and political leader," Ginor said. "I cannot think of anyone who can replace him as a spiritual leader; he never appointed a deputy," he added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Step 1) Remove Arafat from office, in any way necessary. Step 2) The next (democratically elected) palestinian leader MUST recognize Israel's Right to Exist, and do EVERYTHING in his power to guarantee it. (Actions, not just words!) Step 3) Disarm/dismantle all militant groups and factions. Step 4) There must be a "proving period" (1 year) wherein there are NO violent acts by Palestinians vs. Israelis. S Then...you can start negotiations. I agree step 1 is necessary. Step 2 already exists. Step 3 is probably impossible, but a stable government in Palestine would probably police militants. Step 4 is also probably impossible. Except for step four I agree that all those things are necessary, but getting there requires Israel's help. And this is where you disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 i4e i strongly support israel but we're just going to keep arguing about this because people feel strongly about it. I agree with what you're proving but some people simply feel the opposite way. There will always be people disagreeing, and no matter how hard one tries to convince the other side it won't happen. I am pretty sure everyone here supports Israel. We only disagree on Israels response to terror. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 I am speaking from my own beliefs here, but I have such a hard time believing anyone could ever think its ok to wipe out another race of people due to religious beliefs or any other reason for that matter. I mean is it just me or does this seem fairly ridiculous?? Only problem is more people have died in the name of these supposed Gods more than any other reason in history. I thought religion was suppose to be about love, forgiveness and accepting others. Then again what do I know. Its just seems really f***ed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 I am speaking from my own beliefs here, but I have such a hard time believing anyone could ever think its ok to wipe out another race of people due to religious beliefs or any other reason for that matter. I mean is it just me or does this seem fairly ridiculous?? Only problem is more people have died in the name of these supposed Gods more than any other reason in history. I thought religion was suppose to be about love, forgiveness and accepting others. Then again what do I know. Its just seems really f***ed up. It is hard to believe. Religion has produced fanatics that lose sight of what their religion is teaching. Once you believe you have moral superiority over another, things begin to get nutty. Hideous behavior of all kinds have been perpetuated under the misguided belief that God wants it that way. (or insert your higher being) I believe a basic premis that All humans are basically good All humans want security All humans can live on this planet, it's plenty big enough for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Tex, there is a lot on the Oslo Accords of the mid 90s that I have posted before and is on my webpage (PM me for the link) to get a side of the debate not shown here. This entire thread and the other one that ballooned from 16 pages to 20 is hysterical to read. Everybody's made statements like: "Zionists collaborated with Nazis during World War II." I4E's response makes it seem like the sentence reads "Zionism blah blah nazis..." and then he flies off the handle. And billions in aid to Palestine? Don't make me laugh and fall off the f***ing stool. The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $568,744 per day to Palestinian NGO’s. The data is from United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs. As for the comment of what should be done in the region... Stop blowing up apartment buildings with missile attacks causing extreme amounts of collatoral damage (85% of the victims in Israeli attacks on Palestinians are civilians and there are 4x the amount of Palestinian civilians injured than Israeli civilians) Stop random offensive murders and causing indiscriminate injuries that have been noted by Amnesty International, Physicians for Human Rights and B'Tseleem (I think that's the name...it's 3 am and I'm sorta tired)...At the same time demand disarmament of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsas Martyrs Brigade. Proceed with moving the settlements out of the occupied territories and assist in rebuilding the Palestinian economy without going through Arafat. Rebuilding the infrastructure and not murdering random people for the f*** of it might just stop people from wanting to get on a bus and waste anybody they can. But that's just my common sense kicking in. If the PA is asked to get rid of Arafat for being a terrorist, then boot Sharon the f*** out too. The guy is a war criminal for what he ordered in Sabra and Shatila. Putting into power people who don't go for weapons be they vest bombs or Hellfire missiles immediately is absolutely key. Policing the fringe IDF thugs that commit random acts of violence needs to be done just as much as the corralling of the fringe Palestinian groups. Giving Palestinians citizenship and allowing them to go about their daily lives without having to jump through f***ing hoops could be a start in the decreasing of their dislike of Israel. Israel has a right to exist, it's just sad seeing a war criminal asshole and a sickening doctrine like Zionism leading the country straight down the toilet. The Department of State’s annual human rights reports have documented for many years a depressing litany of extra-legal human rights abuses perpetrated against the Palestinian people by Israel: countless home demolitions, land confiscations, arbitrary arrests, and widespread torture. Similar practices have also been reported in detail by numerous Israeli, Palestinian and international human rights organizations for years. But it may come as an unpleasant surprise for the American public to learn that for over 30 years, Israel has also repeatedly detained, tortured and incarcerated Americans of Arab origin, without suffering any sanctions or even a public reprimand from Washington. Responding to a question in the April 2, 2002, press briefing, a State Department spokesman confirmed that Israel was holding at least 18 American citizens on “security” charges, and had detained at least 22 more since “the current violence began last fall.” He also noted that “we have no way of knowing for certain the numbers of American citizens who may have been detained for short periods and released.” Since it is a legal obligation of every host government to notify the local diplomatic mission within 48 hours of the detention of a foreign national, this is an alarming admission. In addition, Israeli and international human rights organizations have gathered evidence that such prisoners are routinely denied family visits for long periods and deprived of access to legal counsel. Their interrogations routinely include torture. Such cases are heard by one military officer at a hearing conducted in a settlement on the West Bank, which enables authorities to deny the detainee a civil trial. The detainee is not allowed to challenge the charges or offer a real defense. I first learned of the detention and torture of American citizens in 1998, when the case of Hashem Mufleh was brought to my attention. He was an 18-year-old, third-generation American born in Albuquerque, New Mexico. After attending high school in the West Bank village where his grandmother lives, he went to Ben Gurion Airport together with his mother and brother to return to Albuquerque to attend university. There Israeli authorities seized him. Partners for Peace launched a nationwide effort to bring the facts of his situation to public attention. Sadly, he was severely tortured and was jailed for more than a year before he was expelled from the country. Other cases were soon referred to me and I have since been able to document a total of 13, two of whom remain in prison. Jamil Sarsour Jamil Sarsour, now 51, was naturalized as an American citizen in 1983. He lives in Wisconsin where he has extensive business interests. He is married and has eight children. In October 1998, Sarsour was detained upon arrival at the Ben Gurion Airport and taken to Moscobiya Prison (two blocks from the U.S. consulate general) where he alleges he was subjected to interrogation and torture, including “shabah,” a standard Israeli procedure for dehumanizing prisoners. After being handcuffed and having their feet chained, they are forced to sit in a tilted small chair tied to the ground, leaving them totally unable to move. They are then hooded with a filthy small bag which is very hard to breathe through. Meanwhile, very loud music blasts overhead. Sarsour was also denied the use of a toilet or shower for long periods. The questioning centered on alleged transfers of funds to “illegal organizations” such as Hamas. Sarsour denies making such transfers but admits that he has helped to support a widow with four children who is a member of his extended family. He also acknowledges that he had $10,000 in cash on him when he arrived in Israel, but it is not uncommon for Palestinian-Americans to travel with large quantities of cash when returning to their ancestral homeland where they will share their good fortune with gifts for family and friends. Sarsour’s brother Emad says the family notified the consulate of the detention 10 days after he was first detained, but he did not receive a consular or family visit until after 101 days of incarceration, when an American consul finally came. His wife was allowed to see him two weeks after that, but only on a non-contact basis. It was 60 days more before Sarsour’s attorney visited him, and the two men were never allowed to meet in private. When the attorney visited him again, he was accompanied by a delegation of four American officials: a female U.S. district attorney from Chicago, a male DA from Milwaukee, an FBI or CIA agent, and a counterterrorism official. They interrogated Sarsour and wanted him to sign an agreement to cooperate with them by telling about a terrorist network in the U.S., saying that would help his case. When he refused, the delegation warned him that if he did not confess to providing money to Hamas he would be jailed “forever.” He says they also showed him pictures of his home and those of his relatives back in the States, indicating they knew how to implicate them with the same charges. Although the physical torture stopped once he received a consular visit, Sarsour was then moved from solitary confinement to a cell with Palestinians who he says tried to get him to incriminate himself and beat him when he refused. After many postponements over a period of almost three years, his trial was finally held on Aug. 8, 2001, and he was convicted of channeling funds to Adel Awadallah, a top Hamas fugitive and mastermind of past suicide bombings in Israel. (Awadallah was killed in an Israeli raid.) Sarsour was sentenced and imprisoned at Ashkelon Prison, but his family hopes he may be home by Feb. 11, 2003. However, he missed the wedding of his oldest daughter last September, and neither his wife nor any other family member has been allowed to visit him since September 2000. Consulate General Jerusalem routinely sends a local staff person to visit American prisoners approximately once per month. Amjad Ahmad Farah Kur’an Amjad Ahmad Farah Kur’an, a 21-year-old who was attending Bir Zeit University and living with his father who had retired to the family home in Al Bireh, adjacent to Ramallah, is also still in prison. Amjad was picked up in June 1998 as he was on his way to Bir Zeit University and alleges he was tortured for a week in the Moscobiya Prison before anyone from the consulate was able to visit him. Amjad was charged with “stone-throwing, an act against public order, providing chemicals for explosives and seven different materials, conspiring to break prisoners out of prison and membership in an illegal organization,” according to the official charge sheet. He signed a confession obtained during torture. Mr. Farah, his father, claims the charges against his son, based on Amjad’s purchase of kerosene for the space heater for the family home, were ridiculous. He points out that there is no way Amjad could reach a prison to assist in any breakout. When he asked his son why he had confessed to things he claims he did not do, Amjad reluctantly told him it was because he couldn’t endure any more torture. In addition to subjecting him to shabah, the interrogators had thrown hot water on him, pulled his hair, deprived him of food and threatened to pull out his fingernails. His family has told me he is in fragile condition; he only weighed 155 pounds at the time of his detention and lost 15 pounds in the first month of detention. Amjad was transferred to Megiddo Prison, an extremely overcrowded tent prison located between Haifa and the Lebanese border, far from his West Bank home. It is a common practice of the Israeli security establishment to jail Palestinians outside their home area, a flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention. After two years of imprisonment without any trial he was sentenced in July 2000 by an Israeli military officer to 52 months at a hearing held in an Israeli settlement on the West Bank. He was also ordered to pay a $2,000 fine. Initially, Amjad’s mother and a sister were allowed to visit him by making arrangements with the Red Crescent Society, but now they have not seen him in almost two years. His father has been allowed to visit only once (before the beginning of the September 2000 intifada). On his way to the prison, Mr. Farah says he was stopped at a checkpoint where the guard took his American passport and stomped on it. The guard said, “I could kill your wife and son and the U.S. government couldn’t do anything.” He was held at this checkpoint for five hours of harassment and taunting. (Keep in mind that this is a man who earned a B.A. degree and an MBA in the United States, then ran his own business in Youngstown, Ohio, before selling it and moving to the West Bank.) And when he and his family reached the prison, the guard required Mr. Farah and other Palestinian visitors to clean the latrines before they were allowed to see the detainees. When Mr. Farah complained to a consular representative about conditions in the tent prison and the fact that his son was being bitten by rats, he was told there was nothing the American officials could do. He also visited the consulate in Jerusalem and the embassy in Tel Aviv in the early days of his imprisonment seeking help for his son, but never managed to talk to an American officer. (In interviewing other detainees and family members, I have found it is a general practice of the American consulate to refer Arab-Americans to local employees when they make inquiries of any kind.) At the embassy, FSNs who identified themselves only as “Sandra” and “George” blamed Mr. Farah for his son’s situation because he had sent him to a Palestinian university. 40 Days In Hell Among the many other Palestinian-Americans who have suffered similar mistreatment but been released are Anwar Mohamed and Yusif Marei. Since both men returned to the United States immediately following their ordeal, I have had the opportunity to interview them extensively. Anwar Mohamed’s brother, Hassan Mohamed, called me to advise me of his brother’s detention. Anwar was born in Silwan to an American citizen, Ahmad Mohamed, now deceased. He grew up in America and was the manager of a pizza restaurant when he decided to go to the West Bank to visit his aunts, the only family members remaining there. His sister is married and lives in Amman. Anwar decided to visit her before returning home and was detained at the border, handcuffed and chained and taken to “another place” where he says the soldiers taunted him when he presented his American passport by saying, “We are all Americans here, but we hate Americans.” A Department of State official in Washington admitted that a Jerusalem employee of the consulate visited Anwar and observed that he had been beaten. After two weeks of torture Anwar refused to sign a confession and was remanded by a “judge” to 16 more days of “interrogation.” The following is an excerpt from his detailed account in his own words, tape recorded as soon as he returned to the United States. “I spent 40 days in hell. There are no words to describe what I went through. All kinds of torture was practiced on me, from food and sleep deprivation, beatings, inhuman confinement in a concrete box of 6-by-4-feet, isolated for 19 days with no windows and a hole in the floor as a toilet; with disgusting odors, spiders and roaches [crawling] over my face. This box is known as ‘The Coffin.’ Threats of death, deprivation of clean, warm clothing and my medicine (I have a chronic ear condition), psychological mistreatment and torture. The chair where I was handcuffed and chained with my head covered with a filthy bag, stretched into a contorted position for days at a time, caused my hands to swell as a balloon and they lost all sense of feeling. I lost 40 pounds. I was in agony. All of this was going on while the American consulate was located just a few blocks away from me, and our American flag was flying high in the sky on top of it!” Yousif Marei was born in a village near Jenin in 1955, immigrated to the United States in 1978 and became a U.S. citizen in 1996. On April 26, 1999, after completing the haj (pilgrimage to Mecca), he traveled to Jordan. He and his wife were detained at the Allenby Bridge crossing point to Israel as they were traveling to the home of his parents on the West Bank. They were held in separate areas, and he was extremely agitated about the welfare of his young bride, who had never been to the Middle East. After 14 hours he was handcuffed and taken to Jalameh Prison near Haifa. Here is a short excerpt from his detailed account of this experience. “One interrogator used the method of shabah against me for three hours [at a time] to force me to lie against myself. Many times they kept me for long hours in a small cell between the interrogations. That cell was the size of my body. I called it the living grave cell. The Israelis never charged me with anything. The American consul from Tel Aviv visited me on the second day of my arrest. That was a big relief for me. It was the first time after my arrest that I received news about my wife. The consul was sympathetic. I thought he was going to take me with him and free me and let me go to my family. He told me that the Israeli authorities were concerned about my human rights conditions. He told me that the security issue is ”a matter between you and the Israeli authorities,“ and he couldn’t get involved in that. He offered me two magazines together with some printed pages but the guard didn’t allow me to have the printed pages. Maybe the papers explained my rights as an American citizen. I appreciated the visit but I wish that he had done more for me than give me a magazine.” Both Yousif Marei and Anwar Mohamed were finally released after 36 to 40 days of detention and torture without any charge ever filed against them, and no explanation or apology. Anwar was required by the Israelis to get a Palestinian passport (which he did not want) and then apply for an exit visa before he was finally allowed to leave. Again, when Anwar sought help from the American consulate, he was told that he had to “follow Israeli rules.” Presenting Their Case Few Arab-Americans are willing to go public with the details of their torture in Israeli prisons once they gain release and return to America, fearing that they will be targeted by the FBI as so many Arab-Americans have been, or reviled by their fellow citizens as possible security risks. Fear of U.S. reprisal has only increased in the aftermath of Sept. 11. But three men (Anwar Mohamed, Yousif Marei and Bishar Saidi) who endured this experience came to Washington twice to present their cases to the Department of State, Congress and the public. I regard them as brave because Shin Bet officials told them as they left Israel, “Don’t cause us any trouble. We can get you wherever you are.” The State Department refused to give them an appointment when they came to Washington the first time, suggesting that they mail their affidavits. However, the Washington Post ran a story about them and the same day I received a call from the office of Thomas R. Pickering, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, offering time for an appointment with staff from Consular Affairs the following day. Those officials expressed concern, but there was never any follow-up to the requests made by the three men which included obtaining the release of the Americans still held in prison by Israel. They recounted their experiences at a press conference held at the National Press Club and the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times, among others, published articles. CNN produced a 17-minute documentary about Anwar’s experience and aired it worldwide. Partners for Peace has repeatedly raised this issue with congressional offices, the Department of State and the White House. Congressional offices are largely totally unresponsive. From State, we have received boilerplate replies that express regret but are not responsive to our requests for action. President Clinton responded with the usual acknowledgment of “an obligation to protect all American citizens, regardless of where they may happen to be,” and an assurance that this problem has been raised in the human rights report. He also said that Secretary of State Madeleine Albright had raised the issue at the highest levels, including Prime Minister Ehud Barak, whose response was that Israel had “no intention to humiliate or to intimidate any Arab citizens, be they Israelis, Americans or from other countries.” Note that this is not a reply to the charge of torture. My work during the past four years and the evidence I have compiled suggests that these cases are but the tip of the iceberg. All these young men — and women — are extremely proud to be American and have been deeply offended by the official U.S. attitude in the face of their trauma. As Anwar Mohamed said, “I cannot believe that my government was powerless to take action on my behalf. Is it because I have an Arabic name?” The Special Relationship The origin of the unwritten policy permitting these abuses — commonly called the “special relationship” — cannot be pinpointed. But after the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, following the Six Days War, there was a subtle but clear shift in U.S. policy, particularly with regard to the reporting from the consulate general in Jerusalem. That post has had a unique independent status since official U.S. policy deems Jerusalem an international city, not the capital of Israel. Initially, this status provided the basis for offering a different voice to Washington, one that reflected American officials’ unique opportunity to observe both sides of the conflict on a day-to-day basis. But by the end of the first decade of occupation, Israeli sensitivities were already increasingly reflected. This new pattern was “codified” in the handling of a series of reports of Israeli torture, including the torture of two American teenagers as reported in an airgram (Jerusalem A-19, dated Oct. 9, 1978), filed by junior officer Alexandra Johnson in 1978. The brothers, Gamil Khalid, 15, and Gamal Khalid, 16, were subjected to beatings and thrown to the ground. In a written statement Gamil Khalid reported as follows: “They took me to a room and said to me, ‘Sign this paper, and if not we will do to you like we did to Munzer [another detainee] and hit you in the eye and swell it up like his. We will bring border police and beat you in front of your father with a stick on any part of your body, and put the stick into your rear.’ So I agreed.” The boys were eventually given several hearings (usually called a military court but devoid of any of the usual rules of evidence), and the “trials” were attended by two American consular officers. As Ms. Johnson’s airgram reports: “One of the two was present at every session of the trial. It is the opinion of both of these consular officers that the Israeli military authorities made no real effort to investigate the charges of mistreatment. Indeed, both the military judge and the prosecutor made it clear throughout the trial that they considered the questions of mistreatment and coercion to be irrelevant and trivial. They also made it clear from the start that the trial’s result was preordained.” According to the airgram, the consular section of the consulate general had sent over 40 reports on Israeli mistreatment of Palestinian political prisoners in Jerusalem and the West Bank to the State Department. In two later cables (Jerusalem 1500 and 3239, sent on June 3, 1978, and Nov. 30, 1978, respectively), Ms. Johnson detailed the treatment of Arab prisoners on the West Bank. She received commendatory letters from Arthur Houghton, an aide to Secretary of State Cyrus Vance; Pat Derian, Assistant Secretary of the Bureau of Human Rights and Humanitarian Affairs, and Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher, but was denied tenure in 1979 and left the Foreign Service. (I have been unable to locate her.) The report dated Nov. 30, 1978, was approved by both the consul general and his deputy, with the following note appended: “The post fully understands Israel’s legitimate concern over security on the West Bank and accepts the premise that a military occupation regime may necessarily supercede the basic civil and human rights which are expected in a free democratic state living in a state of peace.” Evidence from Other Observers It should perhaps come as no surprise that Israel treats Arab-American prisoners so brutally given the way it treats Palestinian detainees. A number of NGOs, including some in Israel itself, have documented these abuses. For example, B’Tselem (the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories) reports the following: “Since 1987, the General Security Service (GSS) interrogators have tortured thousands of detainees, intentionally inflicting severe pain and suffering. The torture was neither extraordinary nor limited to ‘ticking bombs.’ Quite the opposite: torture was a bureaucratic routine; there was standard equipment for inflicting torture, and careful recording of the times the pain and suffering were inflicted. Even the state’s response in petitions against torture repeated, paragraph after paragraph, the routine justification for what were supposedly extraordinary acts. Supervision of the GSS did not succeed in preventing torture in Israel from becoming routine, systematic and institutionalized.” A report by the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel defines the issue this way: “Israel’s 32-year occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has given rise to patterns of legal proceedings that undermine the rule of law and the democratic values of the state of Israel. According to the latest official estimate, during the Intifada period alone (1987-1993), 30,000 Palestinians were interrogated by the GSS. Those mass arrests led to illegal interrogation, which usually included submitting the detainees to physical and mental pressure and torture and which, from the start, contradicted the Israeli Penal Code and the Israeli Basic Law of Freedom and Dignity. Moreover, this behavior has continued to take place with total disregard to the fact that in August 1991, Israel ratified the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, which prohibits and denounces actions deliberately causing “suffering or severe pain.” According to Miftah (an Arab NGO headed by Hanan Ashrawi), since 1967 the Israelis have carried out over 600,000 arrests or detentions. Both Miftah and B’Tselem concur that between 90 and 94 percent of those arrestees have been tortured. Even if we halve that number, that still means that some 270,000 individuals have been tortured. Or to put it another way: if that proportion were applied to the U.S. population, it would mean that more than 25 million cases of torture had occurred in the past 35 years. The Israeli Response Even though it is well documented that the practice of torture began soon after Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, the Israelis deny any use of torture at all. With the creation of Israel as an independent state in 1948, the Israeli Knesset adopted the 1945 Defense Emergency Regulations of the British. In the Occupied Territories this law allows detention without trial. The Fourth Geneva Convention permits such detentions on a limited basis, but with clear stipulations limiting the use of the power and calls for the safeguarding of basic human rights. Israel asserts that both detention and “moderate physical pressure” are justified since the country remains on a wartime footing and use of any and all means necessary to extract information and save Israeli lives is required. After the press conference in September 1999 in Washington, D.C. featuring the three American victims of torture, an Israeli Embassy spokesman was quoted as saying, “We don’t do torture.” But a few days later, the High Court of Israel (comparable to the U.S. Supreme Court) acknowledged that torture was a tool that had been routinely used by the state and ruled that certain forms of “moderate physical pressure” must be abandoned since these actually constituted “torture.” This was a great victory for Israelis who had been fighting for years in court for such a ruling, and for a few months there were no new reports of torture. However, within six months, credible reports of a continuation of the operations of the General Security Services were surfacing, including interrogation methods explicitly outlawed by the High Court. Time to Reassess Our Policy There is clear evidence that the United States government has known for at least 24 years that Israel uses torture during interrogations of Palestinians and that the practice was widespread. Furthermore, the U.S. had evidence that American children were also subjected to this abuse. Yet, over more than two decades, no effective action has been taken by the United States to halt this practice. Furthermore, the United States took great care to avoid any public admission that Americans had been tortured. The special relationship offers the United States the opportunity to have enormous influence on the state of Israel. In addition to giving enormous amounts of aid to Israel, the U.S. has provided military resources that have helped make it the fourth most powerful fighting force in the world. Yet rather than using this special relationship in a constructive way, U.S. policy has become “Israel, right or wrong.” Even when the lives of American citizens are at stake the U.S. does not intervene effectively to safeguard them. How can this disregard for our citizens be justified? This is not a question of guilt or innocence of the individual detained. The issue is torture. Israel was founded on the premise that it would be the “light of the world,” a tiny democracy thriving through hard work in the midst of “a desert.” Israel has, instead, become a country that tortures. That is, however, only the worst of its many human rights abuses, acknowledged and detailed in the Department of State’s Human Rights Reports for years. And now we see a ferocious, brutal attack on Palestinian civilians by the massive Israeli military, supposedly to root out terrorists. Let me be clear: Nothing can possibly justify suicide bombings carried out against innocent civilians in pizza parlors, hotels or bus stops. But nor can anything justify the brute force Israel has used to maintain its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Israel has attempted to hijack the U.S.-led war on terrorism by claiming that Palestinians resisting occupation are equivalent to al-Qaida, and asserting that it is merely doing what the U.S. is doing in Afghanistan: protecting its citizens. But the differences are self-evident. The U.S. has not been occupying Afghanistan for 35 years. We have no American settlements in Afghanistan. And so I ask: Who are the terrorists in the Middle East? Don’t decades of torture practiced on a wide scale by an occupying power qualify as being terrorist? Are the Israeli government demolitions of homes not terrorist actions? Do the attacks on civilians in the Jenin operation mean there will be fewer Palestinian terrorists? How long can moderate governments in the region continue as American partners in the “war on terrorism?” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted March 23, 2004 Author Share Posted March 23, 2004 So the US, UN, and EU condemn the assassination. Does this help Israel or hurt it? When an Israeli official is targeted for assassination, should the world condemn that action? The U.S. should be applauding this action by the Isrealies. I think it's pretty hypocritical of us to be condemming other nations who try to kill or capture terrorists when we are actively doing the same thing. Are we the only nation with a terrorist hunting license and no bag limit? Lets get on the same sheet of music here Bush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted March 23, 2004 Author Share Posted March 23, 2004 Mayor Daley has power but he can't stop a street gang . . . For example. Stopping a street gang is easy. Send in a mechanized infantry battalion to the South Side, use Bradleys to level crack houses and armored humvees with .50 cals to run down and capture or kill any and all suspected gang members. In one night you could totally eliminate Chicago's gang problem. It's too bad that most folks find this solution unpalatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Stopping a street gang is easy. Send in a mechanized infantry battalion to the South Side, use Bradleys to level crack houses and armored humvees with .50 cals to run down and capture or kill any and all suspected gang members. In one night you could totally eliminate Chicago's gang problem. It's too bad that most folks find this solution unpalatable. Damn civil rights in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 As the world condemn Israel's actions we get ready for the bloodbath to follow. By LARA SUKHTIAN GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians chanting "Revenge! Revenge!" flooded Gaza's streets Monday to bury Hamas founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin, who was assassinated by an Israeli missile. As ordinary Palestinians seethed with anger, militants pledged unprecedented retaliation - including threats against the United States. U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and many world leaders condemned Monday's killing of Yassin, the most prominent Palestinian targeted by Israel in 3 1/2 years of fighting. The Bush administration said it was "deeply troubled" by the attack and that it had no advance warning. "We will get revenge for every drop of blood that spilled," said Salman Bdeiri, a Hamas supporter crying near the mosque where Yassin prayed shortly before being killed by an Israeli airstrike. Israel sealed off the West Bank and Gaza, banning Palestinians from Israel, and placed its security forces on high alert. Later Monday, Palestinian militants fired several homemade rockets and mortar shells at Israeli targets in and near Gaza. To the north, Hezbollah guerrillas fired an anti-tank missile at Israeli troops along Israel's border with Lebanon. Israel quickly responded to both attacks. It struck at Hezbollah with planes and artillery fire. No casualties were reported. Israel sent tanks into northern Gaza near the town of Beit Hanoun. Israeli security officials said the purpose of the operation was to prevent further rocket fire. The Yassin assassination was part of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's effort to crush Hamas ahead of a possible Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. However, the killing was seen as a major gamble that could galvanize the Palestinians behind Hamas. Rival Palestinian militant groups immediately pledged solidarity with Hamas. The missile strike dealt what could be the final blow to the stalled U.S.-led "road map" peace plan. It also angered Egypt and Jordan, moderate Arab states whose tacit support Sharon needs for any unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. Since Yassin founded Hamas in 1987, the group has killed hundreds of Israelis in scores of attacks. Hamas wants to destroy the Jewish state and replace it with an Islamic one. For the first time Monday, Hamas threatened the United States and suggested it might seek outside help in carrying out revenge attacks. "The Zionists didn't carry out their operation without getting the consent of the terrorist American administration and it (the United States) must take responsibility for this crime," Hamas said in a statement. "All the Muslims of the world will be honored to join in on the retaliation for this crime." In the past, Hamas has refrained from targeting U.S. citizens or interests, instead focusing on fund-raising and recruitment within the United States, according to senior U.S. law enforcement officials. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge was heeding the Hamas terror warning. "If they are threatening the United States, we have to take it quite seriously," he told reporters in Washington. While not condemning the assassination, the State Department said it increases tensions and would make it harder to pursue peace in the Middle East. "We are troubled," spokesman Richard Boucher said. President Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, told NBC that "it is very important that everyone step back and try now to be calm in the region." But Israel said it will press ahead with more targeted attacks and raids. "The war against terror has not ended and will continue day after day, everywhere," Sharon said. He called Yassin the "mastermind of Palestinian terror" and a "mass murderer who is among Israel's greatest enemies." More than 200,000 Palestinians, some carrying billowing green Hamas flags, poured into the streets of Gaza City for Yassin's funeral procession, the largest gathering here in recent memory. Tens of thousands of furious Palestinians rallied across the West Bank. Mourners in Gaza jostled to touch Yassin's flag-draped coffin, and women ululated and threw flowers and candy. Two Israeli helicopters flew above, and the sky was blackened from the smoke of burning tires. At the cemetery, Yassin's body was paraded through an honor guard of 400 militants armed with anti-tank missiles and machine guns. "Our leader has left us, but we say to him, 'Your lessons will stay within our hearts and minds and our generations,'" Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a Hamas leader, said in a eulogy. In addition to Yassin, who was in his 60s, 12 Palestinians were killed Monday, seven in the airstrike, four in clashes with Israeli troops and one while handling explosives. The attack came before daybreak, when Israeli helicopters swooped toward a Gaza street and fired three missiles as Yassin, his bodyguards and dozens of others left the mosque. Blood and flesh splattered on the walls. Nearby windows shattered. Only a charred metal seat and two twisted wheels were left of Yassin's wheelchair, and a blood-soaked brown shoe lay in the street. Lying in tatters nearby was the brown blanket in which Yassin - a quadriplegic - was nearly always wrapped. "Two or three people were lying next to him on the ground. One was legless," said taxi driver Yousef Haddad. Among those killed were several of Yassin's bodyguards and his son-in-law. Seventeen people were wounded, including two of Yassin's sons. After the attack, residents rubbed their hands in pieces of gravel mixed with Yassin's blood, a traditional sign of anger and a preparation for revenge. The Palestinian Authority declared three days of mourning and closed schools. Flags at Yasser Arafat's headquarters in the West Bank town of Ramallah headquarters were lowered to half-staff. Palestinian ministers stood as Arafat recited a Muslim prayer for Yassin and then added: "May you join the martyrs and the prophets. To heaven, you martyr." The missile strike shook Arafat in more ways than one. The massive outpouring of support for Hamas showed how formidable a rival the Islamic group has become to Arafat's weakened Palestinian Authority. Arafat also fears he may be next on Israel's hit list, said a confidant, Communications Minister Azzam Ahmed. However, an Israeli security official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Israel's campaign focuses on Hamas, at least for now. Boucher, the State Department spokesman, urged Israel to keep its promise to not harm Arafat. "We think that's an important pledge and we would expect them to stand by that." Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said Yassin's killing will eventually weaken Hamas. "If we have to balance how many more terrorists Yassin would have sent, how many terror attacks he would have approved, if we weigh this on the scales, we acted rightly," Mofaz was quoted as telling a parliamentary committee. But Sharon's critics in Israel warned that the Yassin killing could be viewed as an attack on Islam. "This had nothing to do with security, nothing to do with protecting Israeli citizens. It's all about politics and public opinion," said lawmaker Yossi Sarid of the dovish Yahad Party. Yassin's killing virtually buried hopes of reviving the road map, which envisioned an end to violence and the creation of a Palestinian state by next year. "Such actions are not only contrary to international law, but they do not do anything to help the search for a peaceful solution," Annan said of the assassination. European and Arab leaders condemned the killing. Egypt canceled a trip by legislators and other dignitaries to Israel to mark the 25th anniversary of the peace treaty between the two countries. British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said the assassination "is unacceptable, it is unjustified and it is very unlikely to achieve its objectives." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Apu is missing the MAJOR POINT (again). The reason that there are so many Palestinian civilian casualties is that; 1) The Palestinian "leadership" sends civilians to blow themselves up, they don't use militia for that; and 2) Palestinian militants purposely HIDE amongst civilians, use civilians as "human shields". If the Palestinians would come out and "fight like men", there would be no civilian losses on their side. As NUKE CLEVELAND said a few pages ago, the difference between Israel and "Palestine" is that Israel targets militants whereas "Palestine" intentionally targets civilians. NOTE: I actually started to read Apu's (wordy) posting; after I got one paragraph into it, I realized it was more of his anti-Israel propaganda bulls***! Dude, I don't know what your background is, ethnically or educationally, but my suggestion to you is, don't try to make yourself out to be an expert on a subject about which you know nothing. Being that you sometimes come off as sounding somewhat educated, you may have the "power" to convince others to your way of "thinking"; that scares me. BTW, Amnesty International and Physicians for Human Rights are two of the most anti-Israel pro-Palestinian organizations that currently exist. Please show me where either of them have EVER condemned Palestinians for terrorist attacks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 I am speaking from my own beliefs here, but I have such a hard time believing anyone could ever think its ok to wipe out another race of people due to religious beliefs or any other reason for that matter. I mean is it just me or does this seem fairly ridiculous?? Only problem is more people have died in the name of these supposed Gods more than any other reason in history. I thought religion was suppose to be about love, forgiveness and accepting others. Then again what do I know. Its just seems really f***ed up. I agree with you Jester. But, if you have ever read the Koran, you will find where it calls for death to all "nonbelievers" and infidels. Islam is based on the "if you're not with us, you're against us" theory of religion. If you look at all of the threats to world peace, Islam (or should I say, radical Islam) is right in the middle of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 The U.S. should be applauding this action by the Isrealies. I think it's pretty hypocritical of us to be condemming other nations who try to kill or capture terrorists when we are actively doing the same thing. Are we the only nation with a terrorist hunting license and no bag limit? Lets get on the same sheet of music here Bush. Right on, NUKE, right on!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 As the world condemn Israel's actions we get ready for the bloodbath to follow. It's time to "thin the herd"! Too many radical Islamists running around, killing innocent people, threatening world peace. I'm sorry. I can't get myself to feel any compassion for Yassin or any other terrorist or militant Islamist that gets killed. Does that make me a barbarian? I don't know. Ask the families of the 9/11 or 3/11 victims if they cried for Yassin. Ask the families of all the Israelis who's families were destroyed by homicide bombers if they feel bad for Yassin and his follwers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 It's time to "thin the herd"! Too many radical Islamists running around, killing innocent people, threatening world peace. I'm sorry. I can't get myself to feel any compassion for Yassin or any other terrorist or militant Islamist that gets killed. Does that make me a barbarian? I don't know. Ask the families of the 9/11 or 3/11 victims if they cried for Yassin. Ask the families of all the Israelis who's families were destroyed by homicide bombers if they feel bad for Yassin and his follwers! But what the Israelis are saying is "we do not care how many Israeli's will die in counter acts, we do not care what our biggest ally and country that is proping up our economy thinks (US), we're going to keep killing people until the violence ends" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Apu is missing the MAJOR POINT (again). The reason that there are so many Palestinian civilian casualties is that; 1) The Palestinian "leadership" sends civilians to blow themselves up, they don't use militia for that; and 2) Palestinian militants purposely HIDE amongst civilians, use civilians as "human shields". If the Palestinians would come out and "fight like men", there would be no civilian losses on their side. As NUKE CLEVELAND said a few pages ago, the difference between Israel and "Palestine" is that Israel targets militants whereas "Palestine" intentionally targets civilians. NOTE: I actually started to read Apu's (wordy) posting; after I got one paragraph into it, I realized it was more of his anti-Israel propaganda bulls***! Dude, I don't know what your background is, ethnically or educationally, but my suggestion to you is, don't try to make yourself out to be an expert on a subject about which you know nothing. Being that you sometimes come off as sounding somewhat educated, you may have the "power" to convince others to your way of "thinking"; that scares me. BTW, Amnesty International and Physicians for Human Rights are two of the most anti-Israel pro-Palestinian organizations that currently exist. Please show me where either of them have EVER condemned Palestinians for terrorist attacks! From Amnesty International's Web Site Condemnation for Palestine Suicide Bombers Israel, do you ever search before posting? I am trying to understand your stance but when you make statements like the UN has never condemned Palestine, or Amnesty International, and they have, you hurt your credibility. ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES AND THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY Without distinction - attacks on civilians by Palestinian armed groups 1. Introduction * 27 May 2002: Sinai Keinan, aged 18 months, and her grandmother Ruth Peled, 56, were killed when a suicide bomber blew himself up at the entrance to the Bravissimo café in Petah Tikva, Israel. Fifty other people were injured, many of them children. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility. * 27 April 2002: three armed men attacked residents of Adora, an Israeli settlement in the West Bank. In the bedroom of one house a gunman killed five-year old Danielle Shefi as she hid under a bed and wounded her mother Shiri, her brothers Uriel, aged four and Eliad, aged two. Elsewhere in the settlement, they also killed three adults. Izz-al-Din al-Qassam Brigades (the military wing of Hamas) claimed responsibility for what it described as an ''heroic and daring operation.''(1) * 29 March 2002: Tuvya Viesner, 79, from Tel Aviv and Michael Orlanski, 70, from Petah Tikva were stabbed to death while visiting relatives at the Israeli settlement of Netzarim in Gaza. Al-Quds Brigades, the military wing of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, claimed responsibility for what they described as an ''heroic and courageous assault.'' * 27 March 2002: Twenty nine people - 27 of them civilians - were killed and 140 injured when an attacker exploded a bomb attached to himself in the dining room of a hotel in Netanya during a meal to celebrate the Jewish festival of Passover. Nineteen of the dead were aged over 70. The oldest, Chanah Rogan, was 90. Izz-al-Din al-Qassam Brigades claimed responsibility. * 27 January 2002: Pinhas Tokatli, aged 81, was killed and more than one hundred people were injured when Wafa Idris exploded a bomb attached to herself in Jaffa Street, Jerusalem, an area of shops and restaurants. Wafa Idris was the first female Palestinian ''suicide bomber''. Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility. * 4 November 2001: Menashe Regev, 14 and Shoshana Ben-Yishai, 16, were killed by a gunman who shot at an Israeli bus in Jerusalem. Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. These are just six of more than 130 attacks since 29 September 2000 in which civilians were killed by members of Palestinian armed groups and by Palestinian individuals who may not have been acting on behalf of a group. (2) In many attacks, perpetrators deliberately targeted people like five year-old Danielle Shefi and 79 year-old Tuvya Viesner, knowing without any doubt that their victims were not members of the Israeli armed forces. Other perpetrators attacked large groups of people in a busy street, a bus, a café, a hotel or a market, knowing that many if not most of the victims would be civilians. Amnesty International condemns unreservedly direct attacks on civilians as well as indiscriminate attacks, whatever the cause for which the perpetrators are fighting, whatever justification they give for their actions. The organization has repeatedly condemned attacks on civilians in reports and statements and in meetings and other communications with armed groups that have attacked civilians in Israel and the Occupied Territories and in countries around the world. (3) Targeting civilians and being reckless as to their fate are contrary to fundamental principles of humanity which should apply in all circumstances at all times. These principles are reflected in international treaty law and in customary law. (See section 5) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 I agree, but, I know, but, I understand, but, I see your point, but..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 I agree, but, I know, but, I understand, but, I see your point, but..... Steff, this time your bringing the big butt into it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Steff, this time your bringing the big butt into it Get your mind out of the gutter Tex.. I typed but, not butt.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 I agree, butt, I know, butt, I understand, butt, I see your point, butt..... Here's what I see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Get your mind out of the gutter Tex.. I typed but, not butt.. He likes big butts and he cannot lie... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Here's what I see You musta messed up your eyes lookin' at all the BUTTS in Cabo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 He likes big butts and he cannot lie... Sad when an Indiana white boy tries to rap . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.