Bad news for rape victims

[DBAHO]

Currently down here in Australia at the moment, there have been a lot of rape and sexual assualt cases invovling sports team in the last few weeks. The main one has been a gang rape allagation against seven rugby league players in a hotel. Because of this, Sponsors hav been pullin out of deals, police investigations hav been hanging ova da club, and the league's image has taken a real hit with the women. And in the last few days, there hav been a lot of allegations from women claiming they hav been assualted, raped etc. by footy players in the last few years, and they hav been paid to keep quiet. Kind of like the Kobe Bryant case in America at da moment.

[YASNY]

This is a tricky area that has no easy answers. Do I want to see people guilty of sexual assualt punished for their crimes? Damn right I do. And it is a truamatic experience for a woman to report and follow through on the prosecution of the perpetrator, even in the best of situations. So I am not unsympathetic to the plight of victims of this hideous and demeaning crime.

 

At the same time, being male, I can easily see where a man can be in a situation where assault is claimed, with enough evidence to prove sex occured between the two parties, yet the man be totally innocent of the accusation. It would not be difficult for any woman to claim assault after an entirely consensual encounter. There are all kinds of scenarios that can account for a woman's motivation to press charges after consensual sex.

 

Basically, both genders are going to look at this as a "What if this happened to me?" scenario. Steff, you are looking at it from the point of view of a potential rape victim, and I can respect and understand that. However, I have to also look at from the point of as a potential victim of a false accusation. In either case, someone's rights are almost certainly going to be infringed upon. I can't see any way around it.

[Texsox]

Currently down here in Australia at the moment, there have been a lot of rape and sexual assualt cases invovling sports team in the last few weeks. The main one has been a gang rape allagation against seven rugby league players in a hotel. Because of this, Sponsors hav been pullin out of deals, police investigations hav been hanging ova da club, and the league's image has taken a real hit with the women. And in the last few days, there hav been a lot of allegations from women claiming they hav been assualted, raped etc. by footy players in the last few years, and they hav been paid to keep quiet. Kind of like the Kobe Bryant case in America at da moment.

Rugby Players! I am shocked!

 

Of all the athletes I've ever met, rugby players are the wildest. Do they elephant walk there?

[DBAHO]

Rugby Players! I am shocked!

 

Of all the athletes I've ever met, rugby players are the wildest. Do they elephant walk there?

Sort Of, They like stomping on Ppl's heads in Rucks. Of course the only otha person who would know what a ruck is is Soxy, cos I think we're the only ppl who hav a vague understandin of da game

[Texsox]

There are all kinds of scenarios that can account for a woman's motivation to press charges after consensual sex. 

I cannot think of too many besides blackmail. But to actually report it as a crime, I can only think of one or two.

 

This is a difficult area. The old question for debate was "can a prostitute be raped at work?" I've heard some claim no, that it would be theft of services, but not rape. Others claim that yes, a prostitute can be raped.

 

The other point is argument, which seems to be the case here, since it seems she engaged in some foreplay. At wat point can a woman say no and have it be rape? Before penetration? During penetration (imagine proving this one)?

[YASNY]

I cannot think of too many besides blackmail. But to actually report it as a crime, I can only think of one or two.

 

This is a difficult area. The old question for debate was "can a prostitute be raped at work?" I've heard some claim no, that it would be theft of services, but not rape. Others claim that yes, a prostitute can be raped.

 

The other point is argument, which seems to be the case here, since it seems she engaged in some foreplay. At wat point can a woman say no and have it be rape? Before penetration? During penetration (imagine proving this one)?

Here's one for you, right of the top of my head. A woman's husband finds evidence that she's had sex that he wasn't a part of. To maintain her marriage, she claims she was raped.

 

Revenge can be a motivation as well.

[Texsox]

Here's one for you, right of the top of my head.  A woman's husband finds evidence that she's had sex that he wasn't a part of.  To maintain her marriage, she claims she was raped.

 

Revenge can be a motivation as well.

If it was an affair, the accused will be able to prove consentual very quickly and the accuser would be in jail.

 

I thought of that, and if a young girl's parents caught her. Any others?

 

I think the cases of false accusations are small compared to unreported crimes.

[YASNY]

If it was an affair, the accused will be able to prove consentual very quickly and the accuser would be in jail.

 

I thought of that, and if a young girl's parents caught her. Any others?

Let's say it was the first encounter of an affair. It would still be her word against his. I'll think on it, but we have blackmail, revenge, marrital integrity and the teenage thing already.

[Texsox]

Let's say it was the first encounter of an affair.  It would still be her word against his.  I'll think on it, but we have blackmail, revenge, marrital integrity and the teenage thing already.

And how often do you think that occures vs. actual sexual assaults?

[YASNY]

And how often do you think that occures vs. actual sexual assaults?

Oh, don't get me wrong here. I'm not meaning to imply that point at all. I'm just saying that on a personal level, I am very cognizant of the predicaments a man can suddenly find himself thrust into.

[Texsox]

Oh, don't get me wrong here.  I'm not meaning to imply that point at all.  I'm just saying that on a personal level, I am very cognizant of the predicaments a man can suddenly find himself thrust into.

Me too. What also makes this tricky is the "innocent until proven guilty" assumption of our legal system. To balance the victim's rights, we have to assume some guilt on the part of the accused.

 

This is one area where is seems all or nothing.

[YASNY]

Me too. What also makes this tricky is the "innocent until proven guilty" assumption of our legal system. To balance the victim's rights, we have to assume some guilt on the part of the accused.

 

This is one area where is seems all or nothing.

As I said, there is no easy answer here. That is why I tried to express as much of the problems a woman faces as I did the male perspective in my earlier post. Time to get out of here. Catch ya later.

[CrimsonWeltall]

If it was an affair, the accused will be able to prove consentual very quickly and the accuser would be in jail.

 

No, the accuser would get a couple months of counseling.

[Steff]

No, the accuser would get a couple months of counseling.

Wrong. Filing a false police report is a crime.

 

That trash that filed the BS report about her lotto ticket being stolen a few months ago got, IIRC, a hefty fine and up to 120 days in jail.

[Soxy]

Sort Of, They like stomping on Ppl's heads in Rucks. Of course the only otha person who would know what a ruck is is Soxy, cos I think we're the only ppl who hav a vague understandin of da game

 

I loves my rugby--but the only rugby players I know are girls...So far they don't have any sexual assault charges pending though.

[Controlled Chaos]

An article I read pertaining to the case...All I can say is whew...Im glad I'm getting married and won't have to worry about anything like this ever happening.

 

 

Kobe

Linda Chavez

 

Kobe Bryant's guilt or innocence in the alleged rape of a 19-year-old Colorado woman will now be up to a jury to decide, but the case raises important moral and social issues that extend far beyond this incident. Have laws intended to protect rape victims gone too far, making it possible for women to turn disappointing sexual encounters into rape allegations? Do women bear any responsibility if they encourage sexual attention and willingly participate in kissing, fondling or even intercourse, and then decide to put the brakes on? Does "no" always mean no -- and is it necessary for a man to get verbal permission before he makes any physical contact with a woman? To what extent have we criminalized certain behavior that would be better handled by moral opprobrium?

In deciding to send the case to trial, Colorado judge Frederick Gannett took the unusual step of issuing an eight-page written order in which he raised troubling questions about the prosecution's evidence. "Almost all of the evidence introduced at the preliminary hearing permits multiple inferences which, when viewed either independently or collectively, and upon reasonable inference, do not support a finding of probable cause," Judge Gannett wrote. Yet, Colorado law compelled the judge to send the case to trial anyway because he was required to view the evidence in the way that most supports the prosecution's interpretation, "notwithstanding inconsistencies in (the victim's) statements and the other evidence."

The Bryant case is a classic "he said, she said" situation. According to testimony from the police detective who interviewed her and investigated the charges, Bryant's accuser claims that Bryant forcibly raped her in his hotel suite after she had flirted with him, escorted him to his room, and willingly kissed and hugged him for several minutes. Bryant claims that the sex was completely consensual.

Although during the investigation someone leaked stories that the alleged victim had sustained significant injuries during the encounter, the evidence offered at the preliminary hearing was far from compelling. The victim's clothes weren't torn -- despite her allegation that they had been forcibly removed. Her injuries consisted of "microscopic lacerations" and a tiny bruise on her chin, which the judge noted had not been observed by the investigating officers.

More importantly, the lacerations might have been the result not of rape but of the accuser's having had sex with two or three different men in as many days. Although a rape victim's sexual history is usually off limits, in this case, Bryant's lawyers were able to demonstrate that the alleged victim's underwear showed physical evidence of sexual activity with a Caucasian male within the previous 48 hours, casting doubt on whether the lacerations were even caused by Bryant.

There is no question that Bryant acted badly when he had sex with the alleged victim. Not only is he married, but even if we completely accept his version of events, Bryant spent only a few minutes with the woman before he made sexual advances. He may not have been a rapist, but he acted reprehensibly.

But what about the alleged victim? She admits that she stayed late on the job in order to meet Bryant and that she expected him "to put a move on her," yet she secretly snuck up to his room, flirted with him, showed him her two tattoos -- one of which was on an unspecified area of her back -- and kissed and hugged him, willingly.

There was a time when it would have been unthinkable for a decent woman to go to a man's hotel room, much less make out with him within minutes of meeting him. But feminism threw those rules out the window long ago. The changes in sexual mores have made the world a more dangerous place for both women and men. Women may have more freedom to be sexually provocative -- but they can't always control the consequences. And men may find themselves behind bars if they read women's cues incorrectly.

If Kobe Bryant forced his accuser to have sex against her will, he deserves to go to jail. But the evidence, so far, raises more doubt than certainty as to who is telling the truth.

[Texsox]

Sort Of, They like stomping on Ppl's heads in Rucks. Of course the only otha person who would know what a ruck is is Soxy, cos I think we're the only ppl who hav a vague understandin of da game

the elephant walk is an after game tradition (in some teams) that involves mass quantities of beer, then forming a line where each guy grabs the trunk of the fellow in front of him. They then march around the bar. Shocking everyone in site. It is considered rude to swing the trunk of the fellow in front of you too much, or it may appear gay.

 

ChiSoxy would not be able to play

[CrimsonWeltall]

Wrong. Filing a false police report is a crime.

 

Yeah, those class 3 misdemeanors will kill ya. With no previous criminal history, she'd probably pay a small fine and walk.

[Soxy]

Yeah, those class 3 misdemeanors will kill ya.  With no previous criminal history, she'd probably pay a small fine and walk.

It really doesn't happen that often.

 

And if it's any consolation, most crimes are grossly underpunished. I've seen rapists not even go to jail with a conviction, but get counseling.

[CrimsonWeltall]

How is that any consolation? I was arguing that false-rape accusers should have steeper penalties, not that rapists should have more lenient ones.

[Steff]

How is that any consolation?  I was arguing that false-rape accusers should have steeper penalties, not that rapists should have more lenient ones.

I don't think she was implying it was a consolation per se (even though she did type that).. but she is right. Many first time offenders - if they did not use a weapon - only get very small jail terms, most just time already served - and probation. It's horrible..

[Texsox]

I think part of the issue is the changing views of society. First off two totally wasted people leave a bar. Both are way over the legal limit. They have drunken sex in a car in the parking lot. The male could be charged with rape since the woman was drunk and not able to consent. Is there an inequality there? I'd like to hear what the ladies say.

 

Not to defend Kobe but how many groupies have come on to him the same way, that he had sex with? This was not a big city groupie who knew the ropes so to speak. Maybe she thought it was going to be straight up love making and when she realized she was just going to be just another bang on the road, tried to stop it.

 

Kobe allowed himself into a bad situation. The girl allowed herself into a worse situation. I do not believe she knew what she was getting into. She may have thought she could play kissy face, brag to her friends, and go home without sex. And she should have been able to.

[DBAHO]

the elephant walk is an after game tradition (in some teams) that involves mass quantities of beer, then forming a line where each guy grabs the trunk of the fellow in front of him. They then march around the bar. Shocking everyone in site. It is considered rude to swing the trunk of the fellow in front of you too much, or it may appear gay.

 

ChiSoxy would not be able to play 

I thought u were talkin bout a Congo line at 1st.