kevingrt13 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 On ESPN Radio 1000 they keep on talking about the so called trade that was all over the internet with Jose Valentin in it. I'm sorry, but I haven't takin' the time to go and look for it, and I thought this would be easier. What was the supposed trade, and everything? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighurt52235 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Jon Rauch, and Jose Valentin for Jimmy Rollins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevingrt13 Posted February 7, 2003 Author Share Posted February 7, 2003 Man, and I liked that trade! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighurt52235 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 "KW making another trade" is the title of at least 60 posts about the subject. You'll find that no one wants to give up Jon Rauch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 it doesnt matter anyhow cause its not going to happen.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 hsc, You seem to be in "the loop" regarding Sox front office stuff. Do you have any ideas about any trades that might be happening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 well i know this one isnt happening.... jose is one of kw's boys so he wont be going anywhere for a while....anyhow as for trades... no, nothing lately...word has it that kw is pretty much set on what hes taking into spring training... now what happens when its all said and done may be a different story... may the brightest stars shine and shine bright......those will be the ones heading north............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPinStripes Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 well i know this one isnt happening.... jose is one of kw's boys so he wont be going anywhere for a while....anyhow as for trades... no, nothing lately...word has it that kw is pretty much set on what hes taking into spring training... now what happens when its all said and done may be a different story... may the brightest stars shine and shine bright......those will be the ones heading north............ Yeah, he's so much of KW's boy that the minute KW took over, he tried to replace him with cancer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 well i know this one isnt happening.... jose is one of kw's boys so he wont be going anywhere for a while....anyhow as for trades... no, nothing lately...word has it that kw is pretty much set on what hes taking into spring training... now what happens when its all said and done may be a different story... may the brightest stars shine and shine bright......those will be the ones heading north............ I never really thought KW liked Jose. It seems to me he's wanted to get rid of him for a while. Those were big reasons why he brought in Harris and Jimenez, because he hoped they could be the 2nd and shortstop of the future, with Hummell as another possibility. I know I don't like Jose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighurt52235 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Why don't you like Jose? You haven't always felt this way about him, have you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Why don't you like Jose? You haven't always felt this way about him, have you? I've felt this way about him for a long long time. Two seasons ago I went nuts when he was getting playing time over Joe Crede. Last year, I felt the same way when he was our starting 3rd baseman. I think he sucks defensively and strikes out way too many times. He also isn't patient and swings at so many balls. The guy just frustrates me everytime he is up at the plate. Shortstops need to play really good defense and Jose doesn't do it. With many young pitchers, you don't want to make them get extra outs. Typically it is younger guys that get flustered and effected when a team makes an error. Errors hurt veterans too, but they typically have the right mental mind set to get out of those situations, while an error with a young pitcher, could lead to a blowup and a huge inning. Lastly, Jose whined and complained too much about his playing time, even though he was stinking horribly last season. He finally got it going, but not till late and he's still an error and strikeout machine. You don't know how happy I'd be to get a guy like Rollins thats young, fast, with a good eye, and a very good glove and arm. Manos has the arm, but no accuracy and he can't make the routine plays. I like Jimenez a lot too. I figure Jimenez and either Harris or Hummell or someone via trade/free agency will be our middle infield next year. I'm just going to have to root for Jose this last year, cause it don't look like he's going anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighurt52235 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I fell in love with him during the 2000 season. I know he strikes out too much and is a poor defensive player, but I don't think it's fair to say that he sucks. He has hit at least 25 homeruns with 75 rbi in each of his three seasons with the ChiSox. I don't think that is too bad. I know is average i not great, but it all depends on what you expext out of a player who was much of nothing in Milwaukee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Nomar Garciaparra led American League shortstops in errors last year. Errors are the stupidest baseball stat created (followed closely by fielding percentage, which relies on errors). Valentin is a better defensive player the "The Choice." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Nomar Garciaparra led American League shortstops in errors last year. Errors are the stupidest baseball stat created (followed closely by fielding percentage, which relies on errors). Valentin is a better defensive player the "The Choice." How many did Nomar have though? I'm sure it wasn't anywhere near the 40 manos would put up over a full season at short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighurt52235 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Nomar had 25 errors compared to Jose's 27. Only 8 of those were at shortstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Nomar had 25 errors compared to Jose's 27. Only 8 of those were at shortstop. Remember, Manos was playing 3rd. Shortstops make many more errors. That was pretty pathetic on Nomar's part may I add. Of course, he rarely whiffs, and is a great hitter when on. I also think he has those injuries to blame for some of his errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighurt52235 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 We are not comparing Nomar because he is obviously better, and he is a RED sox. Also, he was not injured this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Don't trade Rauch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 We are not comparing Nomar because he is obviously better, and he is a RED sox. Also, he was not injured this year. No, but wasn't it his first full season in a while and he missed most of the season before? I thought it was mainly his elbow that was bothering him, but I don't pay much attention to the Red Sox. You guys are right though, production wise, Jose is better then most shortstops. Not many can hit with that much power and knock in all those runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Don't trade Rauch. I'm with you on that Greg. Rauch, if healthy, will be something special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I like what Jose brings....a left-handed bat with some power...he hits well with RISP...and he has good range and a good(but inaccurate) arm. For $5 mill....he's worth it in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Valentin haters need to try and look beyond the numbers; it's getting rediculous when baseball people continually refer to "how many homers/what's the average/how many errors" when discussing a players's total worth. Here are some points that often get overlooked. 1. Leadership. Once we are in a pennant race and Frank is pouting and Maggs is closed in within himsrelf, you can always count on Jose to galvanise the ballclub, rally the team in meetings and keep up the spirits in the clubhouse (recall ESPN mic'd him to a great effect). Does it mean that this "intangible quality" alone will win 10 more games? Of course not!! We still need to pitch and hit to beat the Twins...but it will go a long way (as coaches or anyone who has ever played a team sport will attest) as far as keeping things loose and preventing mental and otherwise funks of OTHER players...which, in turn, might ultimately translate into a few extra wins, who's to say. Overall, not a bad thing to have even if you can't exactly measure it. 2. Baserunning. Granted Jose seemed to have regressed seriously ever since that hamstring pull early in 2001, he did go 19-2 in 2000, which incidentally %-wise is BETTER than Rollins' 31-13 in 2002 (if a player is to be credited with an extra base, he should be reprimanted for CS because of it's inning-kiling nature). Still, you CAN'T look at his 3 out of 6 SB last year as proof that he is slow; besides being clearly safe on one of the attempts (4 out of 6 ain't bad), he showed remarkable skill in taking an extra base when ball one-bounced and rolled close to a catcher (myself witnessed him taking TWO 3rd bases one ONE gamer at Comisley with less than two outs!), which of course means he DIDN'T get a steal credit, but essencially put his team in a great scoring chance. I reiterate: not everything shows up in stats column, so USE YOUR EYES. While Jose is not an excellent base-taker he was in 2000 (1st- to-3rd, 1st-to-home, dirt bounce non-steals, straights steals, clutch steals, etc) when he was HEALTHY for once in his frustrating career, he can certainly surprise us in 2003. Hawk certainly couldn't shut up about how JV is "the smartest BR he has seen recently", which has to be more than just homerism. I can certainly envision 12-4 season if his groin holds up (npi). Still not in Rollins's league, but not as bad as people seem to think...Aging? If Vaizquel can steal 18 bases at the age of 36 and a half, so can Jose at mere 33+. EDITED TO ADD: if you check team steals for 2002, guess where ALL 8 playoff teams will end up...that's right BASESTEALING is overrated in modern game- even in NL. I kid you not. And White Sox aren't exactly hit-'n'run oriented team if you get my drift. 3. Defense. There has been numerous analysisi done by pretty credible people (one being one poster ESPNJOHN1 who sure knows how to break down the numbers) to prove that when one considers how many runs/games Jose's 2000 36 errors actually cost (amazingly not many due to his ever-praised clutch abilities) versus how much he saved with timely defense and underrated range (keeping the ball in the infield with runner at second poised to score on a real single), not to mention the DP's turned...he actually comes off as a--GRASP!--an adequate/serviceable everyday (key for him) shortstop. Not in Vizquel/Rollins's league but not NEARLY as bad as he is made out to be. (For instance, his 4 horrible errors in Oakland early that year costs the Sox exactly...ZERO runs that game. Not always as lucky, but still...). There is also something to be said about his groin/hamstring injuries and being jerked between CF/LF/3B/SS/bench (because of Claytonfool no less! ), no wonder Jose didn't really excel at SS in 2001-02. Hence me using 2000 year as a more or less full-time player sample, a crucial distinction, IMO, when it comes to Jose (making tough plays but booting or throwing away truly routine ones points to issues of focus and fundamentals as opposed to the lack of defensive talent/athleticism). I am going to preditct that if Jose is healthy and has JM's confidence as a full time player, he will surprise a lot of people, chiefly among the Sox fans. 50-50 odds. Hitting. This is my biggest BEEF by far; I will defer to his injury/platoon issues as being barriers which should not be simply overlooked: the former tends to f*ck with MECHANICS of your swing, the letter with TIMING. I am not making excuses, just stating the obvious...Still his RBI/at-bats ratio is MIGHTY impressive when compared to other non-middle of the line-up SS out there and his clutch hitting (outside of that awful 0 for 6 trip to Baltimore, his RISP OPS is nearly 1200, which is frightening good) has been one of the best in AL. Give Jose 550-575 at-bats, I almost GUARANTEE you he will give you 820-850 OPS...and I DON'T even take into account the fact that with Jimenez and Magglio sandwitching him, he will get more fastballs, which he LOVES and with a lot more people on base in general, it may be the first 30hr/100rbi of his career. Hell, he may even walk a bit more as he did in 2001, though I wouldn't count on it. I truly feel that he is a different player than he was with Milwakee in a way that Sammy Sosa and Lois Gonzalez were different playes once they turned 30 and more mature. Therefore, I don't care that "his career average is .247". I know I have seen him play (first time I saw him in 2000 I didn't even know who he was- he hit two doubles and had 3 more lineouts to each of the outfielders, lol). Last year, for instance, when he got a hold of more consecutive starts he brought his average from .241 to as high as .265 in the matter of 2-3 weeks. Then Roycemania resumed. Thanks Jerry... Bottomline: Jose Valentin should be a BIG part of the 2003 team and is a pretty effin' GOOD (I said good-to-very-good, not great) player overall when healthy. Ignoring Rollins's age and salary (I know it's hard, but we are talking about 2003, possibly the ONLY chance we get to make it into WS if...Colon leaves, Hurt, Lee regress, Rauch sucks and 13.5 mill a year Maggs, well, um...man, I need a drink and i'm underaged), there is no way he is a "better player" ALL aformentioned things considered. Not that future-oriented Phillies ever considered the trade in the first place End of Rant. 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Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Great Post Brando. You've made me double think this whole thing. I like the fact Jose has great range and can make the amazing play. I also agree that his clutch hitting is impressive. You also made a lot of sense with your prediction and I can see that happening. He is a good fastball hitter, and in 2000 he also excelled in the 2 hole. He should put up similar numbers this year. I've never called Jose a terrible base runner. He's smart on the base paths and is a very heads up player. He's also a leader on the field and I think he's got a great attitude. I hate hearing anyplayer complain. In all honesty, I do think we have one of the best hitting shortstops in the majors. I think we have one of the worse fielding ones, but not by as much as his errors would make you believe. I've seen all those stats about how his errors didn't cost anyone, but I still think an error is huge. Nothing sickens me more then errors and mental mistakes (picked off, missing cut off man, throwing to the wrong base, swinging at pitches way out of the zone, etc) I'll be patient with Jose and give him a shot this year. He's definately put up quality numbers in the key area which is rbi's and batting average with runners on. I'd like to see him work more on hitting lefties, as well as improve his eye. Sometimes He gets way ahead off the count, then chases a curve in the dirt to whiff. Those are things, I'd like to see him improve on. Defensively, he ain't going to get better. Man I hope your right when comparing him with Gonzo. That would be sweet. One of those late bloomers. He definately has a ton of power for a shortstop, but I'm with you, power is over-rated and it isn't the only thing you should look at in a player . Ichiro don't hit many homers, but that doesn't mean he's not an awesome ball player. By the way, welcome aboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 it doesnt matter anyhow cause its not going to happen.......... Hmm.. do we have the same source HSC..? When I asked about this one I got a HUGE laugh and was told "Jose?!?! KW's in LOVE with him!!". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Thanks for the kind words, Chisoxfn. You guys (I remember "Rio" as a mere poster from the amazing 2000 campaign which surprised the HELL out of all of us and which, in turn, led to two of the most frustrating years of pure underachievement in Sox recent history) seem to have a sweet and smooth site running. Congrads and kudos. Jose? "Intriguing" comes to mind, but then again most scouts had him as a "5-tool guy who will frustrate the socks off you" way before I even knew his name. Maturation and change of scenery (to say nothing of good health) allowed him to become, basically, a better player in 2000. Next two years, while not as impressive (same can be said of the whole friggin' team, though), also showed that he can sustain offensive production (28 homers in 123 games in 2001? Tejada/Garciparra territory) . Now that he is a full-time SS again, the key factor is "health". Plain and simple. He has been working hard in the off-season with a personal trainer on flexibility-strenghtening program. Hope it works- nothing worse than Jose having a 3 RBI night, then see him cringing and having spasms and having Sox shut him down for the next 2 games. It can't be good for offensive timing/confidence (the swinging at curves in the dirt while ahead in the count you mentioned sometimes had this stench of desperation and forcing it on his part. His walk total was pathetic two months through the season). If Thomas (in '98/99) and Konerko (second half '02) were allowed to blame the significant decline in production on recurring foot problems, why can't a SS (an infinetely more athletic position) like Jose be extended a courtesy of benefit of the doubt? I think he will get better defensively (ton of DP, difficult "saves", etc), but I agree with you that the lapses in concentration and occasional errant throws will probaby remain for he is the kinda dude who forces the issue big time. Still, don't you agree that if Jose-Jimenez duo turns the most DPs in the league and Jose keeps error count under 25 (assuming range/cannon are still there), it would mean he ought to be considered a decent SS? It think so. I would never dream his error total dip into single digits...lol His age? Not as big factor as it would be for, say, Ichiro or Ricky Hendersen simply because he has always relied on smarts and instincts rather than pure athleticism and speed. I've seen him score from 1st on a single that Mike Cameron or Erstad couldn't score on or take an extra base simply using his superb vision and anticipation timing (espcially when D-man is slow getting the ball back in). That kind of thing sticks with you deep into 30's. As long as he can avoid pulls and strains (Larry Walker and Barry Bonds who are much older and much heavier men have managed. Why not Jose?) and all that, he should be with the Sox for another 2-3 years assuming there's a pay cut involved. He did give the Sox a discount in 2001 afterall. In any case, 2003 promises to be one helluva season. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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