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guess who pitched 6 scoreless innings


Ishmookie

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I'll compare the two since you're looking for a fight and I have the numbers to back it up....

 

You forget that there are interleague games...

Kips ERA in interleague games is even more impressive than the rest of his starts...

 

15IP 14H 5R 5ER 5BB 10K --- That works out to an ERA of 3.00 a [email protected] and BAA about .250

 

--------------------------

 

You'll no doubt argue that pitchers in the national league have a lower ERA, while this is true, It's significantly less than what you think it is...

 

American League

 Year  R/G    RA    G   ERA    IP    H    H/G    BB  BB/G  HR  HR/G   SO  SO/G  CG  SHO  SV pAge 
+----+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+----+----+-----+----+----+---+---+----
2003  4.86 11061 2270  4.53 20224 20905   9.2  7111  3.1 2500 1.10 13735 6.05  110 109 538 28.7 
2002  4.81 10862 2264  4.46 20164 20592   9.1  7290  3.2 2457 1.09 14020 6.19  115 122 558 28.7

 

National League

 Year  R/G    RA    G   ERA    IP    H    H/G    BB  BB/G  HR  HR/G   SO  SO/G  CG  SHO  SV pAge 
+----+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+----+----+-----+----+----+---+---+----
2003  4.61 11917 2590  4.28 23110 23152   8.9  8778  3.4 2707 1.05 17066 6.59   99 150 661 28.8 
2002  4.45 11546 2588  4.10 23105 22680   8.8  8956  3.5 2602 1.01 17374 6.71   99 153 666 28.8

 

The average difference between the two leagues is over the two years is 0.3 ER... Applying that to the kippers numbers over the past two years ....

 

Kips ERA over 2002&3 = 3.43

Kips Estimated AL ERA over the same time frame = 3.73

 

To give that 3.73 number some meaning I'll compare it to Mark Beuhrle's over the same time frame....MB 2002&3 ERA = 4.05

WHere did he play those interleague games? How did he fair in interleague games in American League parks and what teams did he play against in the American League parks?

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Read much?

 

--- two starts --- two quality outings -- two losses -- that's what you get when you're playing for the Pirates.

To be honest with you I can only find one game that he has pitched against an American League team and that was last year against TB at TB. I can't find this Cleveland game you speak of. Plus I asked how well he pitched, not if he took the loss or not. Do you have trouble comprehending my question?

 

So you are basing your argument on one game against a piece of crap Devil Rays team? Good luck with that. The rest of that stuff is nonsense as I don't care what the average pitcher's era in both leagues are. We were talking about Kip, so lets stick to that. I know he pitches in a huge pitcher friendly ballpark. And I know he faces a team with a lineup that has a terrible bottom 3 on most nights. To say that that doesn't make a difference is asinine.

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So now it is the park and the league?

Well lets see Rexy, if he is pitching in a National League park then you are not using the DH. Therefore is it really like pitching against an American League lineup? I think not. I also think his huge pitcher friendly ballpark does have a lot to do with his stats, but that is not the case I was making when asking where he pitched at. Fast to jump to such conclusions are we?

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To be honest with you I can only find one game that he has pitched against an American League team and that was last year against TB at TB. I can't find this Cleveland game you speak of.

 

So you are basing your argument on one game against a piece of crap Devil Rays team? Good luck with that. The rest of that stuff is nonsense as I don't care what the average pitcher's era in both leagues are. We were talking about Kip, so lets stick to that. I know he pitches in a huge pitcher friendly ballpark. And I know he faces a team with a lineup that has a terrible bottom 3 on most nights. To say that that doesn't make a difference is asinine.

Boy do you have a thick skull -- I knew it was a requirement to work for the government an all -- But that's the third thing you've read wrong, or just plain ignored in this thread...

 

Here it is... One last time...

 

The average difference between the two leagues is over the two years is 0.3 ER... Applying that to the kippers numbers over the past two years ....

 

Kips ERA over 2002&3 = 3.43

Kips Estimated AL ERA over the same time frame = 3.73

 

To give that 3.73 number some meaning I'll compare it to Mark Beuhrle's over the same time frame....MB 2002&3 ERA = 4.05

KIP's ERA when adding the .3 to compensate for pitching in the National League is Lower than Mark B's (our #1 pitcher) over that same span...

 

 Year Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  GF  CG   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP   ERA *lgERA *ERA+
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+
2002 PIT NL  12  14  33  33   0   1  198.3  197   92   79  21   71  134   7    3.58  4.32  121
2003 PIT NL  10   9  31  31   0   1  197.3  171   77   72  24   76  147   7    3.28  4.24  129

And the definitions for lgERA and ERA+

lgERA - Earned Run Average for a league average pitcher in that ballpark or combination of ballparks.

ERA+ - the ratio of the league's ERA (adjusted to the pitcher's ballpark) to that of the pitcher. > 100 is above average and

 

IF you are so concerned about the park... take a look at Kips lgERA -- It's almost a full run less than that of the average pitcher, placed in the same park.

 

Kip took the loss in both games.... vs. Tex and TB I don't know where they were played...

TEXAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And the Texas game was in 2002.

 

I'm not basing my argument on one game vs. the D-rays--- There's 395 innings of work there displayed for you...I used the D-rays game as an example it really doesn't matter what league the players are in... Mussina is 0-2 with an ERA of 11 vs. the D-rays now... Does that mean he can't pitch in the AL?

 

READ.

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Well lets see Rexy, if he is pitching in a National League park then you are not using the DH. Therefore is it really like pitching against an American League lineup? I think not. I also think his huge pitcher friendly ballpark does have a lot to do with his stats, but that is not the case I was making when asking where he pitched at. Fast to jump to such conclusions are we?

2002 PNC park

Ballpark: PNC Park (ballparks.com)

Attendance: 1,784,988 (13th out of 16)

Park Factor: Batting - 106/Pitching - 105 (over 100 favors batters)

 

So here is the real data for 2002 -- It's a hitters park....

 

2003 PNC park

Ballpark: PNC Park (ballparks.com)

Attendance: 1,636,751 (14th out of 16)

Park Factor: Batting - 99/Pitching - 99 (over 100 favors batters)

 

And 2003 -- pitcher's park- Though I'd call 99 neutral.

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Like I said, I don't care about the league average. I could care less. I care about how KIP WELLS has performed in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. Thats all. So far in the past two years you have one game against the TB Devil Rays to show me proof of this performance. Not that great if you ask me.

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Like I said, I don't care about the league average. I could care less. I care about how KIP WELLS has performed in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. Thats all. So far in the past two years you have one game against the TB Devil Rays to show me proof of this performance. Not that great if you ask me.

Here's a very comparable situation....

 

Curt Schilling broke into the bigs in the AL w/ the orioles... he had a 4.54 ERA in the AL, and and ERA over 7 his first two seasons.... We only saw kip in the AL for 2+ seasons w/ an ERA of around 5...

 

Schilling went to the NL at age 24, Kip @ 25... we know what kind of numbers schilling has put up in the NL, and has now returned to the AL... Do you feel that Schilling will have a hard time converting back to the AL??? I suspect that Kip would have the same results...

 

--------------------------------

 

To anyone else who actually reads my posts, there's a really interesting read in the last Issue of SI (w/ Wood on the Cover). It speaks of the perception that the NL is a fastball league, and debunks the myth completely. Lots of good articles in that edition, which is surprising for SI.

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Here's a very comparable situation....

 

Curt Schilling broke into the bigs in the AL w/ the orioles... he had a 4.54 ERA in the AL, and and ERA over 7 his first two seasons.... We only saw kip in the AL for 2+ seasons w/ an ERA of around 5...

 

Schilling went to the NL at age 24, Kip @ 25... we know what kind of numbers schilling has put up in the NL, and has now returned to the AL... Do you feel that Schilling will have a hard time converting back to the AL??? I suspect that Kip would have the same results...

 

--------------------------------

 

To anyone else who actually reads my posts, there's a really interesting read in the last Issue of SI (w/ Wood on the Cover).  It speaks of the perception that the NL is a fastball league, and debunks the myth completely.  Lots of good articles in that edition, which is surprising for SI.

I can't believe you are comparing Kip Wells to Curt Schilling. :headshake

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I can't believe you are comparing Kip Wells to Curt Schilling. :headshake

You're right... Schilling was a much lower prospect.... Drafted in the second round... and took longer to reach the big leagues (Another reason to have more patience with Kip, He was rushed to the majors)...

 

Kip Wells

Drafted by the Chicago White Sox in the 1st round (16th pick) of the 1998

First major league action in 1999 -- Posted 4.04 ERA-- in the AMERICAN LEAGUE going 4-1 -- stuck in the bigs in 2001 -- started Producing in 02

Curt Schilling

Drafted by the Boston Red Sox in the 2nd round of the 1986 amateur draft.

did'nt reach the bigs until 1988 -- didn't stick in the bigs until 1992...

 

So kip was drafted higher, made the bigs quicker, stuck earlier, and started producing solid numbers, in a shorter time frame than Curt schilling. Why is this not a fair comparison for developing pitchers?

 

I'm sure if you were a Boston/Baltimore fan would have claimed Schilling was no good because he was only putting up number in the NL.

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You're right... Schilling was a much lower prospect.... Drafted in the second round... and took longer to reach the big leagues (Another reason to have more patience with Kip, He was rushed to the majors)...

 

Kip Wells

 

Curt Schilling

To each their own. You can see it any way you like. If you think Kip Wells can be as good as Schilling then so be it. I can't see any comparison between the two of them.

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SSI.. can I get the name of your eye doctor...?? You're eyesight is unbelieveable!!  :lol:

Well my regular eye doctor is Dr. Wonder, however he is out of town this weekend. I have to see his assistant, Dr. Charles., until he gets back. They are really wonderful and I recommend them greatly. They say I have perfect 20/20 vision.

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It was indeed a horrible trade that not only killed 2002, but probably 2003 and even 2004 as well if you think about it. I understand some Sox fans have to stay in theraputic denial and pretend Wells is garbage, a chocker, etc.

 

Will he be as good as Shilling? I doubt it, but everything is possible.

 

Up until turning 34 and moving to Arizona, Shilling was basically a 3.50 ERA pitcher. An All-Star but not exactly the second coming of Pedro.

 

Since moving to Pittsburgh, Kip is a 3.60 ERA pitcher. He may not be as good as Shilling was in 1997, but otherwise he is pretty damn close. Kip is 26. As a 26-28yo, Shilling averaged a 4.00+ ERA.

 

Both pitchers throw 93-94 and can reach 95-97 when needed. Shilling has that splitter while Kip's slider and curve are better. Shilling has better control, but Wells still has time to improve his.

 

2 years from now I see Kipster as a 18-9, 3.40 ERA type pitcher. Better if he moves to a pitcher-friendly stadium. While not a HOF'er, definately a good #2 on most teams and ace on some.

 

Which is more than I could say for Garland or Wright.

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Listen Cheat, I am not even saying that Kip is not a good pitcher. An ace or a stud I think not. However, to get in a debate about his talent was not my intentions in this thread. The fact that certain fans of the White Sox continue to lament over the trade is what gets to me. I think it is about time to let it go. Damn, it has been 3 years now. Move on and worry about the talent that is on our own team. We have plenty of talent in our system to fantasize about and not have to worry about what could have been if we would have kept the Kipper. Why don't we fixate on what we have and not what we gave up or could have had. That is what I don't understand. There is nothing that could have assured us that he would have been even a decent pitcher with us. Do you really think Nardi would have helped him become the even the pitcher that he is today? I have serious doubts about that. There is a lot that has helped Kip get to the level that he is at right now that would have never happened had he not been traded. Would those same things would have happened in our organization? Who knows.

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