guess who pitched 6 scoreless innings

[southsideirish]

It was indeed a horrible trade that not only killed 2002, but probably 2003 and even 2004 as well if you think about it.    I understand some Sox fans have to stay in theraputic denial and pretend Wells is garbage, a chocker, etc.

 

Will he be as good as Shilling?  I doubt it, but everything is possible. 

 

Up until turning 34 and moving to Arizona, Shilling was basically a 3.50 ERA pitcher.    An All-Star but not exactly the second coming of Pedro.

 

Since moving to Pittsburgh, Kip is a 3.60 ERA pitcher.    He may not be as good as Shilling was in 1997, but otherwise he is pretty damn close.  Kip is 26. As a 26-28yo, Shilling averaged a 4.00+ ERA.

 

Both pitchers throw 93-94 and can reach 95-97 when needed. Shilling has that splitter while Kip's slider and curve are better. Shilling has better control, but Wells still has time to improve his.

 

2 years from now I see Kipster as a 18-9, 3.40 ERA type pitcher. Better if he moves to a pitcher-friendly stadium. While not a HOF'er, definately a good #2 on most teams and ace on some.

 

Which is more than I could say for Garland or Wright.

MOVED to a pitcher friendly stadium? He IS in a pitcher friendly stadium!

[BrandoFan]

MOVED to a pitcher friendly stadium? He IS in a pitcher friendly stadium!

Listen, I don't suffer fools lightly. You should know better than to say all this nonsense about Wells without checking with stats and watching him pitch first.

 

Whatever he did in AL is irrelevant now. He's a completely different pitcher -- hell, in 2001 Nardi Contreras had him throwing 90-93, but as soon as he moved to a team with a real pitchign coach, he uncorked a 98mph fastball in his third start and now the heater is rarely under 93-94.

 

His control needs further improvement if Kip want to catch up to Shilling types. At 26, he still has lots of time. I would take him back in a SECOND.

[BrandoFan]

The fact that certain fans of the White Sox continue to lament over the trade is what gets to me. I think it is about time to let it go. Damn, it has been 3 years now

.

 

That was a horrible trade that continues to haunt this team. The man who made it is still running the team. The philosophy, the paradigm of Cheapness that produced the need to hunt for a "bargain" like Ritchie instead of shelling out just a couple more Mill and getting a better pitcher AND keeping Kipster is still prevalent in this organization.

 

The sooner Ritchiegate and Koch/Foulke swap are forgotten, the sooner they are repeated with equally disasterous results.

[southsideirish]

Listen, I don't suffer fools lightly.    You should know better than to say all this nonsense about Wells without checking with stats and watching him pitch first.

 

Whatever he did in AL is irrelevant now.  He's a completely different pitcher -- hell, in 2001 Nardi Contreras had him throwing 90-93, but as soon as he moved to a team with a real pitchign coach, he uncorked a 98mph fastball in his third start and now the heater is rarely under 93-94. 

 

His control needs further improvement if Kip want to catch up to Shilling types.    At 26, he still has lots of time. I would take him back in a SECOND.

And this differs from what I said in what way. In what way did this even have any relevance to the comment about a pitcher friendly park. Look back at my statements and you can clearly see I brought Nardi's name up a couple times. Don't come blowing your hot air around in my direction and expect to thank you for these nonsensecal comments.

[southsideirish]

.

 

That was a horrible trade that continues to haunt this team.    The man who made it is still running the team. The paradigm of cheapness that led to the need to take a chance on a "bargain" like Ritchie instead of shelling out a couple more Mill and getting a better pitcher AND keeping Kipster is still prevalent in this organization.

 

The sooner Ritchiegate and Koch/Foulke swap are forgetten, the sooner they are repeated with equally disasterous results.

 

Koch, Cotts/Foulke trade? Is that the one you are referring to? OK whatever. What do the A's have to show for that trade now? Foulke would have walked away from us as well. We weren't going to pay him what Boston just did.

[BrandoFan]

Ok, momo...

 

 

1. PNC is NOT a pitcher's park.

 

2. If it were a pitcher's park, it does NOT change the fact that Kip is a very talented and fairly accomplished young pitcher who is in fact ahead of Shilling's 26-28yo curve and may in fact catch with Big Curt one day. May.

 

3. How did A's benefit from the trade? Are you that stupid or just disingenuous? They won ALW and were literally a few pitches away from going to ALCS....and Boston, in turn, was a few pitches away from the Series. Ergo, A's were a few pitches away from the Series........Did I mention the fact that this trade singularly resulted in Sox missing the playoffs in 2003? I guess that's probably unimportant in your world.

 

Hot air? I am simply pointing out a few things that short-sighted homers like you may have missed. We both mentiojned Nardi; mine was actually relevant -- Kip was indeed a completely different pitcher as soon as he switched -- his velocity alone shot up, which doesn't normally happen. So you might as well forget about 2000-2001.

 

Don't bother replying.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Listen Cheat, I am not even saying that Kip is not a good pitcher. An ace or a stud I think not. However, to get in a debate about his talent was not my intentions in this thread. The fact that certain fans of the White Sox continue to lament over the trade is what gets to me. I think it is about time to let it go. Damn, it has been 3 years now. Move on and worry about the talent that is on our own team. We have plenty of talent in our system to fantasize about and not have to worry about what could have been if we would have kept the Kipper. Why don't we fixate on what we have and not what we gave up or could have had. That is what I don't understand. There is nothing that could have assured us that he would have been even a decent pitcher with us. Do you really think Nardi would have helped him become the even the pitcher that he is today? I have serious doubts about that. There is a lot that has helped Kip get to the level that he is at right now that would have never happened had he not been traded. Would those same things would have happened in our organization? Who knows.

 

I just reread this thread, to see where it all fell apart. AND...Once again you've come off looking like a complete ass... Your first comment in this thread was "WHO THE f*** CARES!!!!! IT IS OVER AND DONE WITH! GET OVER IT!!!!!! ". You then proceeded to reply to something you don't care about and are obviously over, 21 more times...

 

Through the arc of the thread you first claimed, that we shouldn't be discussing former sox here on soxtalk(funny I don't remember you chiming in on those threads where I posted the doctored images of Bartolo Colon), to contesting whether Kip would suceed in the AL, to arguing that PNC park was a pitchers park, (when I showed you the park factor for the past two years has it favoring hitters to neutral), to denying an incredibly simillar career path to Curt Schilling(which shows why you have to be patient with young pitchers).

 

I have only glanced over the trade in one post, saying that I didn't want to send anyone away. I wanted to develope talent from within. You're the one who keeps bringing that back up. I'm over the trade, I was the day after it was made. That doesn't mean that I have to stop following Kip's career. He was an integral part of one of my favorite Sox memories, and a nice guy, so excuse me for wishing the kid well after this organization gave up on him.

 

I like to follow guys on their progression from the minors to the majors and how thier careers develop. It just so happens that I'm a sox fan, and like to see guys who rose through the ranks of our system suceed at the major league level... I'm pulling for Aaron Miles this year in Colorado. Following these players is not dwelling in the past, it's celebrating the present. Thier success or failure is how you grade out a farm system, how much major league talent does it produce, and how good is the quality of talent that it produces.

[southsideirish]

I just reread this thread, to see where it all fell apart. AND...Once again you've come off looking like a complete ass... Your first comment in this thread was "WHO THE f*** CARES!!!!! IT IS OVER AND DONE WITH! GET OVER IT!!!!!! ".  You then proceeded to reply to something you don't care about and are obviously over, 21 more times...

 

Through the arc of the thread you first claimed, that we shouldn't be discussing former sox here on soxtalk(funny I don't remember you chiming in on those threads where I posted the doctored images of Bartolo Colon), to contesting whether Kip would suceed in the AL, to arguing that PNC park was a pitchers park, (when I showed you the park factor for the past two years has it favoring hitters to neutral), to denying an incredibly simillar career path to Curt Schilling(which shows why you have to be patient with young pitchers).

 

I have only glanced over the trade in one post, saying that I didn't want to send anyone away. I wanted to develope talent from within.  You're the one who keeps bringing that back up.  I'm over the trade, I was the day after it was made.  That doesn't mean that I have to stop following Kip's career.  He was an integral part of one of my favorite Sox memories, and a nice guy, so excuse me for wishing the kid well after this organization gave up on him.

 

I like to follow guys on their progression from the minors to the majors and how thier careers develop.  It just so happens that I'm a sox fan, and like to see guys who rose through the ranks of our system suceed at the major league level... I'm pulling for Aaron Miles this year in Colorado.  Following these players is not dwelling in the past, it's celebrating the present.  Thier success or failure is how you grade out a farm system, how much major league talent does it produce, and how good is the quality of talent that it produces.

Wonderful, good luck with all that.