Paul, Daubach battle for last spot

[witesoxfan]

Nothing to argue with there Brando....except that I am wondering how many homers Daubach hit around Pesky's Pole....anyways, he probably hit a few to CF that just got caught out there in the Bermuda Triangle and didn't go out and that in Chicago those are homers....regardless, he'll be a better hitter facing easy pitching in the AL Central rather than some difficult pitching in the AL East.

 

I think Rowand probably is 6'1''....he's not a big guy by any means, but then again, unless you are Chinese(not count Yao Ming), 6'1'' is not that big

 

I think KW's plan is to get rid of Thomas somehow, some way....however, with JR being head honcho, Lee will be gone before Thomas. Mark my words...Thomas will make between $6-8 mill next year...so I'll use $8 mill for this case....Maggs will make $14 mill....Konerko will make about $7 mill....and then Daubach's contract could be extended....maybe around $3-5 mill a year....Buehrle will make $5 mill atleast next year(or he should atleast)....Koch will make $6 mill, assuming we resign Colon, that's $10 mill, and Jose could be resigned, say, at $5 mill a year....so if Thomas, Maggs, Valentin, Konerko, Daubach, Buehrle, Koch and Colon come back at their prices....that is about $59 mill between those 8 guys....we better win a whole hell of a lot to keep all those guys...and I don't think you can count on Rick White's or Tom Gordon's options being picked up either.

 

If we advance to the ALCS, I say this is a possibility....then and only then though. A World Series birth would be nice and would make the White Sox Chicago's #1 team again...and a World Series win and people would forget there is even a major league team that plays on the North Side of Chicago.

 

That is all wishful thinking....but it is a possibility. Not a big one...but it is there.

[BrandoFan]

regardless, he'll be a better hitter facing easy pitching in the AL Central rather than some difficult pitching in the AL East

 

I didn't even think about it, witesoxfan. Good point. Come to think of it, he didn't have to face Pedro and Drelo (Derek Lowe), hehe. And yeah, Tigers, Royals, Tribe absolutely blow and Twins only scare Sox players who mysteriously fall apart at the Met. And we know Daubach thrives under pressure. Reagrdless, if other Sox starters play great, Daubach is not needed. If they don't, he could come in and do some damage. Win-win situation.

 

Dude, your salary analysis truly scares me. Thomas has to hit like hell to justify 8 Mill and that's fine by me. Ditto for Lee and Konerko. Let's hope cheap young'ins lie Borachrd, Rowand, Jumenez, Crede, Garland, Wright, Munoz, Rauch and Olivo come through, 'cause we in DEEP effin' trouble after 2003 season. I hope that the combination of Sox winning 95 games, All-Star Game, Cell renovations, smart marketing and transportation accomodations (they were talking about building a Metro stop and/or a shuttle of sorts as well as doing something about the major routes in the near future...before cheap bastard Reiny folded!) will bring a TON of Sox fans back (they are out there no doubt) as well as a bunch of fairweather ones. We NEED 2.4-2.5 M. butts in the seats for Reiny to approve the requisite 65-70+ mill payroll. Absolutely imperative. Of course, ideally, I would have loved a lakeside downtown state-of-the-art stadium build, one that would make us the Midwest Yankees...but that's to much to expect from the Dork. *sigh*

 

One of the things we have found from our fans in focus groups was that they view [coming to the ballpark] as a family experience," Reinsdorf said. "They're not as interested in winning as I'm interested in winning".

 

This quote makes my blood boil. God, how I hate this patronizing and conniving f*ck. No wonder he literally drove 60% of Sox fans out..

[cwsox]

As far as JR being concerned about winning - I would have agreed with your comment once upon a time -

 

I who have never and will never forgive JR for being a cheerleader for the lockout in 1994, our year -

 

and I who haven't been thrilled with a lot of things JR has done (although I appreciate him for keeping the Sox in Chicago...)

 

got a chance to meet JR in very unexpected circumstances last May and had an extended conversation with him in a very laid back situation - damn I was so caught by surprise that I never even asked him for his autograph or anything and our conversation got to be like two guys talking rather than a big shot aand a peon -

 

I came away from that conversation totally convinced - much to my amazement -

 

totally convinced that JR lusts to see the WS win as much as I do and that is a hell of a lot, that he loves the Sox (as opposed to owns the Sox) and wants to a see a WS WS as much as I do -

 

now one may quibble or even down right scream about his decisions, maybe he has gone about it all the wrong way and I won't argue with anyone who feels that way - and he has his weaknesses and failings like anyone and maybe some of his decisions have been totally bone headed in our opinions -

 

but he wants a White Sox winner with every fiber in his body just as I do. That one I will give him, having had a chance to talk about it with him at length. So if JR is quoted as saying "They're not as interested in winning as I'm interested in winning" I would agree. Castigate him for whatever, but he lusts for winning. Whatever one thinks about his decisions made with his head, JR's heart is in the right place.

[Cali]

That kid can flat hit.  I think of him as a left handed hitting Magglio Ordonez.

Mario's a righty according to the official site...

[Chisoxfn]

 

That kid can flat hit.  I think of him as a left handed hitting Magglio Ordonez.

Mario's a righty according to the official site...

Thats right, its Alex Fernandez thats a lefty.

 

I'm always confusing things.

[greg775]

I wish we hadn't signed Alomar.

Let's make Sandy a coach.

[baggio202]

Nothing to argue with there Brando....except that I am wondering how many homers Daubach hit around Pesky's Pole....anyways, he probably hit a few to CF that just got caught out there in the Bermuda Triangle and didn't go out and that in Chicago those are homers....regardless, he'll be a better hitter facing easy pitching in the AL Central rather than some difficult pitching in the AL East.

 

I think Rowand probably is 6'1''....he's not a big guy by any means, but then again, unless you are Chinese(not count Yao Ming), 6'1'' is not that big

 

I think KW's plan is to get rid of Thomas somehow, some way....however, with JR being head honcho, Lee will be gone before Thomas.  Mark my words...Thomas will make between $6-8 mill next year...so I'll use $8 mill for this case....Maggs will make $14 mill....Konerko will make about $7 mill....and then Daubach's contract could be extended....maybe around $3-5 mill a year....Buehrle will make $5 mill atleast next year(or he should atleast)....Koch will make $6 mill, assuming we resign Colon, that's $10 mill, and Jose could be resigned, say, at $5 mill a year....so if Thomas, Maggs, Valentin, Konerko, Daubach, Buehrle, Koch and Colon come back at their prices....that is about $59 mill between those 8 guys....we better win a whole hell of a lot to keep all those guys...and I don't think you can count on Rick White's or Tom Gordon's options being picked up either.

 

If we advance to the ALCS, I say this is a possibility....then and only then though.  A World Series birth would be nice and would make the White Sox Chicago's #1 team again...and a World Series win and people would forget there is even a major league team that plays on the North Side of Chicago.

 

That is all wishful thinking....but it is a possibility.  Not a big one...but it is there.

couple of things....we will move carlos lee ..he will make 6 million in arbitration...were not paying that bum 6 million...

 

daubach wont make 5 million..we know his worth but what he brings to the table unfortunately for him really doesnt translate into big bucks...2 million will get him resigned...

 

jose valentin at 35 will never make 5 million...he will be lucky to get a 2 million dollar offer

 

i think colon makes more than 10 mill...probably 12...

 

my total comes to 55 million so we are close..but it will take like 5-8 million to sing the remaining players...remember half those guys are coming back at around 300k...the only guy left thats arbitration eligable that will make any kind of cash is garland (1 million - if he wins 18 games 2 - 3 million..no one makes more than that their first year in arb)

 

even using your numbers 59 million plus the high end of mine 8 = 67 million...thats very doable

[witesoxfan]

And that's exactly what I was doing too was using the high end....saying Valentin will make $5 mill instead of the $2 mill offer you said....Daubach making $5 mill instead of $2 mill....etc. Thomas could also accept his part of the mutual agreement, making him $6 mill instead of $8 mill next year.

 

Using the low end....it's just under $53 mill....and if the Sox have any kind of success this year, $65 mill will be easy to have....maybe getting White and Gordon back isn't as doubtful as it looks, though I won't be looking forward to seeing them in a Sox uniform past this year.

 

You know what I just realized....if a team that has decent pitching needs a LFer or could atleast use an upgrade offensively that will only cost them about $1.4 mill or so....we could trade Carlos at the deadline and use Daubach in LF and bring Borchard up as a bat off the bench(assuming he doesn't make the team out of ST)....maybe get a solid 5th starter or some prospects or something like that. Maybe Carlos won't even be on the team by the end of July....but one can only hope.

 

I don't see any reason we couldn't do this....a payroll of $65 mill, especially with very good success this year, can be accomplished. We are about 1 or 2 pieces away from becoming a team that could contend year in and year out.

[baggio202]

And that's exactly what I was doing too was using the high end....saying Valentin will make $5 mill instead of the $2 mill offer you said....Daubach making $5 mill instead of $2 mill....etc.  Thomas could also accept his part of the mutual agreement, making him $6 mill instead of $8 mill next year. 

 

Using the low end....it's just under $53 mill....and if the Sox have any kind of success this year, $65 mill will be easy to have....maybe getting White and Gordon back isn't as doubtful as it looks, though I won't be looking forward to seeing them in a Sox uniform past this year. 

 

You know what I just realized....if a team that has decent pitching needs a LFer or could atleast use an upgrade offensively that will only cost them about $1.4 mill or so....we could trade Carlos at the deadline and use Daubach in LF and bring Borchard up as a bat off the bench(assuming he doesn't make the team out of ST)....maybe get a solid 5th starter or some prospects or something like that.  Maybe Carlos won't even be on the team by the end of July....but one can only hope.

 

I don't see any reason we couldn't do this....a payroll of $65 mill, especially with very good success this year, can be accomplished.  We are about 1 or 2 pieces away from becoming a team that could contend year in and year out.

good points...speaking of our division...its so damn weak..all we have to do is outspend the twinkies..they either do one of two things...either let us and do nothing to counter (their tack this year) and we become a better team...or try and spend with us and end up going broke and become the royals....we could dominate this division for 10 years..put a run together better than the tribe did...we just have to get the right mix of talent and chemistry..THEN PAY THEM TO KEEP IT ALLTOGETHER...

 

btw..could you imagine if we traded place with lets say the yankees...lmao..they would win this division every year by 35 games

[witesoxfan]

If we traded place with the Yankees.....and that's not as bad as it could. We could still contend, though the Yankees would win the division by a ton.

 

Imagine us switching places with the Athletics....they'd probably win 125 games and win the division by about 50 and the Tigers, Royals and Indians could be about 70 games out....and then we would probably be, at best, a 2nd place team in the AL West, though more likely a 3rd place team, behind Seattle and Anaheim...I could potentially seeing us beat Seattle....but that is potentially. I wouldnt' see us beating Anaheim.

 

About those 1-2 more pieces that could put us over the top...I figured out what we need. Better team speed. Put it this way...our fastest guy is probably Jimenez or Olivo....off the bench it is Willie Harris(nothing wrong with that though)....however, Jimenez or Olivo wouldn't even be considered fast on some teams. Speed may be overrated in the regular season....but I've seen what effects team speed can have in the posteason....speed and baserunning....if both are good, your team will do well in the postseason. If not, then forget about it....everyone saw what the Angels did this past postseason with good speed and baserunning....that is what it can do for you in the playoffs. If we could get a Jose Cruz or a Carlos Beltran to take over in CF....that would be nice. Hell, I'd consider trading for Dave Roberts in LA....I'd give them Josh Stewart and then maybe Matt Ginter as well....he may not have a good OBP(though that can be fixed) but the man can steal a base...I think he had like 45 or so in limited action....I'd like to have that on the Sox. Maybe Alex Sanchez on the Brewers...though there is a big risk in getting Clayton or Ritchie back as well!

[BrandoFan]

Cop'la points:

 

1. The Dork won't spend more than 65 Million in the All-Star year unless there is some SERIOUS influx of fannies in the seats this year. If Sox don't start running away with the division early, there won't be a requisite 30,000 a game average and Reiny will make a White Flag II at the end of the season if the Sox are not contending. Do you know what I mean by "fire sale"? I mean this:

Maggs is traded for ton of prospects, Thomas is let go, Colon is let go, Gordon and White are let go, Jose Valentin is let go, one of Lee/Konerko goes...Can you look me in the eye and tell me Borachard is ready to be a dominant clean up hitter? I shutter to even think what would happen if we don't make it in 2003...Forget dominating the division in the next 10 years; Sox might become the Tigers of 21st century. Grim.

 

2. If Lee gets 6 Mill in arbitration, that means he had a very good season (850-875 OPS), which ain't that bad. Manos not worth 5 Million in arbt.? If he goes 25/85 and steals 14 bases, which is VERY doable, he will get 5 Million (option picked up or Mariners/Angels/D-Backs/Cards/etc picking him as a FA) with his EYES closed. Who's 35? He just turned 33, and a non-speed burner like him doesn't just decline. If Vizquel is hanging strong at almost 37, I think Jose will manage.

 

3. If Colon has a Cy Young caliber year and Sox make noise in the playoffs, Sox will lock him up. 3/30 sounds reasonble, but it might be as high as 3/36+. Maggs stays at 14, Carlos at 6 and Paulie 6-7 if he has another very good year. Hurt situation is interesting because of all deferred money, but he can't settle for anything less than 6-7 Mill if he has a 900+ OPS season, which is what he needs to do in the first place for Sox to dominate the division. If Harris and Jimenez have breakthroughs, Jose is gone. If not, his 5 Mill option is back.

 

Assuming John Garland is arbitration eligible after 2003 (coupla a mill) and so is Marte (3-4 Mill if he pitches anything like he did in '02) I think...With Buerhle getting a new deal, payroll might go as high as 75-80 Million when it's all said and done. 55-60 Mill is unrealistic IMO; it's either 40 or 70+...

 

And for COL don't pencil Borchard as a contributing, starting OF- he hasn't proven jack yet. The hole in his swing makes Brooks Kieshnick look like Ichiro. Don't count on him until 2005.

[baggio202]

Cop'la points:

 

1.  The Dork won't spend more than 65 Million in the All-Star year unless there is some SERIOUS influx of fannies in the seats this year.  If Sox don't start running away with the division early, there won't be a requisite 30,000 a game average and Reiny will make a White Flag II at the end of the season if the Sox are not contending.  Do you know what I mean by "fire sale"?  I mean this:

Maggs is traded for ton of prospects, Thomas is let go, Colon is let go, Gordon and White are let go, Jose Valentin is let go, one of Lee/Konerko goes...Can you look me in the eye and tell me Borachard is ready to be a dominant clean up hitter?  I shutter to even think what would happen if we don't make it in 2003...Forget dominating the division in the next 10 years;  Sox might become the Tigers of 21st century.  Grim.

 

2.  If Lee gets 6 Mill in arbitration, that means he had a very good season (850-875 OPS), which ain't that bad.  Manos not worth 5 Million in arbt.?  If he goes 25/85 and steals 14 bases, which is VERY doable, he will get 5 Million (option picked up or Mariners/Angels/D-Backs/Cards/etc picking him as a FA) with his EYES closed.   Who's 35?  He just turned 33, and a non-speed burner like him doesn't just decline.  If Vizquel is hanging strong at almost 37, I think Jose will manage.

 

3. If Colon has a Cy Young caliber year and Sox make noise in the playoffs, Sox will lock him up.  3/30 sounds reasonble, but it might be as high as 3/36+.  Maggs stays at 14, Carlos at 6 and Paulie 6-7 if he has another very good year.  Hurt situation is interesting because of all deferred money, but he can't settle for anything less than 6-7 Mill if he has a 900+ OPS season, which is what he needs to do in the first place for Sox to dominate the division.  If Harris and Jimenez have breakthroughs, Jose is gone. If not, his 5 Mill option is back.  

 

Assuming John Garland is arbitration eligible after 2003 (coupla a mill) and so is Marte (3-4 Mill if he pitches anything like he did in '02) I think...With Buerhle getting a new deal, payroll might go as high as 75-80 Million when it's all said and done.  55-60 Mill is unrealistic IMO; it's either 40 or 70+...

 

And for COL don't pencil Borchard as a contributing, starting OF- he hasn't proven jack yet.  The hole in his swing makes Brooks Kieshnick look like Ichiro.  Don't count on him until 2005.

one thing about manos..he likes it here...he turned down a much better offer from balt to stay here...if the sox win the division and set themselves up for post season for the next few years manos will take a pay cut to stay here...he seems to be one of the few guys in baseball that would actually play for nothing (he plays every year in puerto rico - for practically nothing already) and realizes that even if he doesnt sign the biggest contract he is still getting played to play baseball...he actually gets it..he realizes what a lucky SOB he really is....gotta love that about him

 

one thing im noticing on the dork...he is in his 70's now..he gotta realize that his years are numbered and he cant take it with him...its not like he has any immediate family to leave the team to (i think he has a nephew thats learning the business - but thats not like a son)...with this deal with us cellular and the park taking on the retro look for '05...he is gonna want to show case it and to do that he has to put fannies in the seats...i really think he will make one last effort to put a winner on the field...i dont care how much of a s***head somebody is when they are a man of reinsdorf's means as they get to the end of life they always want to put their best foot forward and leave a positive statement about their life...this is the reinsey's last chance to not be looked at as a cheap bastard and be remembered the way comiskey was...

[Rex Hudler]

Should not of signed Alomar, Paul and Oliva with this lineup would of been fine.

I disagree with that big time!

 

JP and Olivo are not an option unless Alomar gets hurt and they are forced to go that way.

 

They got Alomar for one main reason. Sure he will play a couple days a week and provide some insurance in case Miguel doesn't play well.

 

The bottom line is he is here to tutor Olivo. He will be the perfect teacher/role model for Miguel and will only help Miguel's development. Don't discount this factor, because it will be a very important part of the development of the team this year.

[Rex Hudler]

Random thoughts from several posts.....

 

1. Rowand is not 6'1". I have never put a tape measure to him, but 5'10" sounds about right. I am 5'9 and he is about the same height, give 1 or 2 inches. Size notwithstanding, if Rowand is healthy (they say he will be) then look for him to have a solid year. He has potential that he has not yet shown in Chicago. Eventually, he could be a 25-30 HR a year guy and drive in 100 (if he is not leading off).

 

2. The Jiminez trade was a good one. They got a Major League player for a guy who will be no more than a backup catcher (Quintero) and Fernandez who was a spare part. The Sox have way too much outfield depth for a guy who only walked 13 times in 489 at bats to make an impact. He was good for the Barons and at the time, I hated the way that trade affected the Barons, but it was a good one for the White Sox. The Sox have enought OF's. Fernandez was not a CF either. Can you say Borchard? Valenzuela?

 

3. Speaking of other Sox OF. Valenzuela is indeed right-handed and does remind me of Ordonez as well. The guy can flat out rake. He had Tommy John surgery on his elbow, which is what kept him out last year.

 

4. Look for Carlos Lee to have a helluva year this year. His plate discipline got much better last year and he had a great 2nd half. I think you will start to see the focus from him that is needed for him to really improve.