I was wrong about Bush

[LDF]

We are fighting an enemy that is not only not afraid of death, they look forward to dying.

 

How can you beat that? I guess we have to accomodate them.

i like that and we should be more accomdating............... bring out the naplam

[1549]

Not you... The title of the thead.

I'm so stupid :banghead

[1549]

I'm in a bad mood this week.  So I'll play a game with you.

 

You're the Prime Minister of Japan.  You just received word that 3 Japanese citizens have been taken hostage by Iraqi terrorists.  They demand you withdraw your non-COMBAT troops from Iraq or they will kill the hostages in 3 days time.

 

What do you do?

 

This is the crux of the decision Bush & the American people face in whether to stay or leave Iraq.  If you leave, then all the businesses that currently involved in the rebuilding process become welcome hostages.  If you stay you are likely to continue to receive guerilla tactic sneak attacks & lose lives.  There is no way to prevent loss of life when battling snipers.

 

I'll sit back & wait for your answer.

If I am PM of Japan I try a special ops rescue mission. If you fail they die, if you don't do anything they die, but if you succeed...they live!

 

As for what the US should do, I think we just have to ride this one out. Keep making arrests and targeting the leading insurgents to try to keep this undercontrol while Iraq builds its own governing force.

[flippedoutpunk]

I wish the guy from Splinter Cell was real, then we'd be lookin good.

[sox4lifeinPA]

I thought Bush sucked from Day-1!!!!

yeah...the same guy who created your job...

 

thanks mr department of homeland security...shut your mouth when it comes to the president

[mmmmmbeeer]

damn alot of these type threads lately in the message boards i visit.  I agree With Juggernaut on this one here.  We will always be hated due to the fact we support Isreal and because we are the force in the west that screws up anything one of those terrorist factions trys to do.  Go to help some country, we're hated for it.  We go deny some country help, world outcry is why the hell didn't the US help.  I hate seeing Vietnam and Iraq in the same sentence, i personally don't think it will come out like that but then again thats just me.  With the urban warfare thats going on in Iraq as we type this, firing upon that mosque was the least we could do.  I sure as hell woulda done the same thing, woulda leveled it.  I'm not saying drop every building where people are firing at you from, but if you know a large percentage of people in there are trying to kill you, do it.  These people fight in such a way there is going to be no way around killing civilians, though we do try to keep the number down as low as we can.  I doubt that if we were at war in our country against some country they would do the same.  As for the question Japan has infront of it right now, i wouldn't leave, in fact I'd send more people there.

Now with the up coming election, kerry doesn't like the war but doesn't come and show a plan on what he would do.  This is not only Kerry, it's everyone who doesn't like it.  Don't say we shouldn't of not gone there, because that time has past, what would he do about it now is the question.  Ok, my slight rant is over.  I respect everyones opinion and this is just mine, take it or leave it.  I'm not trying to change anyones opinion with this, so don't start arguing with me about it.

This is why we need to let war be war. We cannot allow politics play a role in Iraq unless we want to see mass coalition casualties. There is no parallel to draw between Iraq and Vietnam except on the political level. In Vietnam our troops and commanders were fighting a war with their hands tied behind their backs. This was touched on earlier, but it's an important point. The Americans could not level North Vietnam due to the threat of the Chinese and/or Soviets jumping in the ring. We were forced to play by the VC's and NV rules instead and it proved to be a nearly impossible task. In the last few days we are seeing the same problem arising in Iraq. Although I don't see Iraq claiming anywhere close to the 58,000 American lives that Vietnam took, we are certainly heading down the path of an unwinnable war. Common sense strategy tells our commanders to level everything that they even possibly see as a threat, including civilian targets, being our current enemies are civilians, not uniformed troops. The effect would be two-fold. On one hand a greater # of the instigators would be dealt with and secondly, after realizing that the US is showing absolutely no mercy due to their inability to distinguish peaceful Iraqis from disruptive Iraqis, the peaceful citizens will be much quicker to identify the insurgents to coalition troops. But, as in Vietnam, political considerations are keeping Bush and Co. from treating this war as a war and are rather choosing to appease the global community. This past week is becoming the biggest failure of the GWB administration, he is abandoning our troops to improve his chances at reelection. Let em' fight, let war be war, and squash the insurgency asap using an all-out offensive with everything we've got. Each day we wait the further out of control we are, and the further out of control we are the more American blood soaks the sands.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

This is why you don'y fu@kin blow up mosques. How many people will have to die before we finally f***in learn something

Ok, time for a lesson in the laws of war.

 

A protected site, such as a mosque, is a place that is to be left alone if at all possible in times of war due to religous considerations.

 

HOWEVER

 

When a protected site is used for military purposes, such as staging an attack or storing weapons or being used as cover for people shooting at other people, then it loses it's protected status and becomes a legitimate target.

[Rex Kickass]

It's a shame that this mess is a mess. But we have an obligation to the people of Iraq to pick up the pieces. We overran their state and took out its governance structure, we need to fix what we destroy.

 

It's the right thing to do.

 

We can't leave the area now, but we can't do what we've been doing either.

 

And on that mosque? 100% with you Nuke - if their shooting at you - you gotta shoot back.

[LDF]

yeah...the same guy who created your job...

 

thanks mr department of homeland security...shut your mouth when it comes to the president

in reallity, it was the arabs hatred who created the department. but it is his job to do something..........

[Texsox]

in reallity, it was the arabs hatred who created the department. but it is his job to do something..........

I believe it was our current agencies (CIA, FBI, Military, Immigration, Border Patrol) inability to work together to quickly and easily share data that caused the department to be formed. It isn't just Arab hatred we are fighting, although some in Homeland Security seem to have an extra zeal for that sort of work.

[LDF]

This is why we need to let war be war.  We cannot allow politics play a role in Iraq unless we want to see mass coalition casualties.  There is no parallel to draw between Iraq and Vietnam except on the political level.  In Vietnam our troops and commanders were fighting a war with their hands tied behind their backs.  This was touched on earlier, but it's an important point.  The Americans could not level North Vietnam due to the threat of the Chinese and/or Soviets jumping in the ring.  We were forced to play by the VC's and NV rules instead and it proved to be a nearly impossible task.  In the last few days we are seeing the same problem arising in Iraq.  Although I don't see Iraq claiming anywhere close to the 58,000 American lives that Vietnam took, we are certainly heading down the path of an unwinnable war.  Common sense strategy tells our commanders to level everything that they even possibly see as a threat, including civilian targets, being our current enemies are civilians, not uniformed troops.  The effect would be two-fold.  On one hand a greater # of the instigators would be dealt with and secondly, after realizing that the US is showing absolutely no mercy due to their inability to distinguish peaceful Iraqis from disruptive Iraqis, the peaceful citizens will be much quicker to identify the insurgents to coalition troops.  But, as in Vietnam, political considerations are keeping Bush and Co. from treating this war as a war and are rather choosing to appease the global community.  This past week is becoming the biggest failure of the GWB administration, he is abandoning our troops to improve his chances at reelection.  Let em' fight, let war be war, and squash the insurgency asap using an all-out offensive with everything we've got.  Each day we wait the further out of control we are, and the further out of control we are the more American blood soaks the sands.

in iraq, we do have our hands tied. we can do a number on that country and to hell with the causilaties(sp).

 

but we have more respect on things and lives, that being said what are we suppose to do?

 

i do not like bush b/c of the family past, but this war is now on, they need to go out and win it. if they are using place that is tabboo for military sites, it is there fault.

 

what gets me is they have a short memory on the oppression they had under the previous regime.

[Texsox]

in iraq, we do have our hands tied. we can do a number on that country and to hell with the causilaties(sp).

 

but we have more respect on things and lives, that being said what are we suppose to do?

 

i do not like bush b/c of the family past, but this war is now on, they need to go out and win it. if they are using place that is tabboo for military sites, it is there fault.

 

what gets me is they have a short memory on the oppression they had under the previous regime.

Think about life for the average Iraqi. Sadaam was the leader for almost their entire lives. They do not know any other way of life. They are much more likely to be a victim of violence today than before we came to liberate.

 

Unemployment is up, life is very uncertain. I can understand why there is anger and resentment.

 

And guess what? Some people do not want a US lifestyle. Amazing isn't it?

But our attitude has been on more than one time in our history that we are going to give you US democracy if we have to kill everyone who is opposed to it.

 

Still I think we should still vote Bush, he's funny

[JUGGERNAUT]

What is FAST REPLY?

 

Anyways, there is an alternative.

It's not politcally correct but in the end it gives the US what we want (Democracy in Iraq). The alternative is we turn the country over to the Kurds. They have created democracy in Northen Iraq & capitalism is beginning to flourish there. They are not afraid to go on seek & destroy missions to hunt down terrorists. Most importantly they are loyal to the US, so they would not do anything to undermine us there.

 

Will this decision save American lives? Yes. The Kurds are well-trained in fighting these kinds of battles & we can drastically lower our forces & presence in the region by turning things over to them.

 

Will the world be in an uproar for our choosing sides? Yes.

But you know I'm sick of the world dictating US policy. All I hear in these posts is get the UN involved. And of course I'm hearing this on the tail of a rather large scandal in the UN involving millions of dollars in the food for oil program in Iraq that's been going on for nearly 15 years. The scandal is so bad that in essence Sadam starved his people & padded the wallets of several UN officials. Especially those in France & Germany. The UN is not the answer. It never has been.

 

So the bottom line in my opinion is that the power brokers/media in the world hate our guts now so turning things over to the Kurds isn't going to do much worse. If we just withdraw from the region the Kurds are likely to assume power any ways so by doing it diplomatically & officially we can still maintain some power & influence in the region. The rebuilding effort must go on. American companies involved in that effort are not going to leave. So we need to do what we can to insure their safety.

 

This is not Vietnam by any stretch of the imagination. The war is over. The main battle has been won. The old regime is gone. What remains are loyal snipers that

no that the West is weak when it comes to dying for a cause. They will use every means at their disposal to exploit that. Backing down will only make them stronger & the means they use more effective. Bob Kerrey is an a-hole for even suggesting Iraq is Bush's Vietnam. Tens of 1000's of troops died in Vietnam. We've yet to reach the 1000 mark in Iraq. More importantly we have an ally in the Kurds. We need to get real here & make use of that. Trying to build a new Iraq for both those who supported the old regime & those who were oppressed by it can't work. I think Bush knows this. He just doesn't know how to politically spin it so the media will accept it.

[BrandoFan]

What is FAST REPLY?

 

Anyways, there is an alternative. 

It's not politcally correct but in the end it gives the US what we want (Democracy in Iraq).  The alternative is we turn the country over to the Kurds.  They have created democracy in Northen Iraq & capitalism is beginning to flourish there.  They are not afraid to go on seek & destroy missions to hunt down terrorists.  Most importantly they are loyal to the US, so they would not do anything to undermine us there.

 

Will this decision save American lives?  Yes.  The Kurds are well-trained in fighting these kinds of battles & we can drastically lower our forces & presence in the region by turning things over to them.

 

Will the world be in an uproar for our choosing sides? Yes. 

But you know I'm sick of the world dictating US policy.  All I hear in these posts is get the UN involved. And of course I'm hearing this on the tail of a rather large scandal in the UN involving millions of dollars in the food for oil program in Iraq that's been going on for nearly 15 years.  The scandal is so bad that in essence Sadam starved his people & padded the wallets of several UN officials.  Especially those in France & Germany. The UN is not the answer.  It never has been. 

 

So the bottom line in my opinion is that the power brokers/media in the world hate our guts now so turning things over to the Kurds isn't going to do much worse.  If we just withdraw from the region the Kurds are likely to assume power any ways so by doing it diplomatically & officially we can still maintain some power & influence in the region.  The rebuilding effort must go on.  American companies involved in that effort are not going to leave.  So we need to do what we can to insure their safety.

 

This is not Vietnam by any stretch of the imagination.  The war is over.  The main battle has been won.  The old regime is gone.  What remains are loyal snipers that

no that the West is weak when it comes to dying for a cause. They will use every means at their disposal to exploit that.  Backing down will only make them stronger & the means they use more effective. Bob Kerrey is an a-hole for even suggesting Iraq is Bush's Vietnam.  Tens of 1000's of troops died in Vietnam.  We've yet to reach the 1000 mark in Iraq. More importantly we have an ally in the Kurds.  We need to get real here & make use of that. Trying to build a new Iraq for both those who supported the old regime & those who were oppressed by it can't work.  I think Bush knows this.  He just doesn't know how to politically spin it so the media will accept it.

There are so many questionable if not totally outrageous premises and conclusions in the above, I am sure it will be picked apart by the likes of CW, FSJ, Apu and Tex, so I'll defer to them to do the dirty work for me.

 

I am, however, interested in your opinion re: PNAC I & II. Thanks in advance.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

What is FAST REPLY?

 

Anyways, there is an alternative. 

It's not politcally correct but in the end it gives the US what we want (Democracy in Iraq).  The alternative is we turn the country over to the Kurds.  They have created democracy in Northen Iraq & capitalism is beginning to flourish there.  They are not afraid to go on seek & destroy missions to hunt down terrorists.  Most importantly they are loyal to the US, so they would not do anything to undermine us there.

 

Will this decision save American lives?  Yes.  The Kurds are well-trained in fighting these kinds of battles & we can drastically lower our forces & presence in the region by turning things over to them.

 

Will the world be in an uproar for our choosing sides? Yes. 

But you know I'm sick of the world dictating US policy.  All I hear in these posts is get the UN involved. And of course I'm hearing this on the tail of a rather large scandal in the UN involving millions of dollars in the food for oil program in Iraq that's been going on for nearly 15 years.  The scandal is so bad that in essence Sadam starved his people & padded the wallets of several UN officials.  Especially those in France & Germany. The UN is not the answer.  It never has been. 

 

So the bottom line in my opinion is that the power brokers/media in the world hate our guts now so turning things over to the Kurds isn't going to do much worse.  If we just withdraw from the region the Kurds are likely to assume power any ways so by doing it diplomatically & officially we can still maintain some power & influence in the region.  The rebuilding effort must go on.  American companies involved in that effort are not going to leave.  So we need to do what we can to insure their safety.

 

This is not Vietnam by any stretch of the imagination.  The war is over.  The main battle has been won.  The old regime is gone.  What remains are loyal snipers that

no that the West is weak when it comes to dying for a cause. They will use every means at their disposal to exploit that.  Backing down will only make them stronger & the means they use more effective. Bob Kerrey is an a-hole for even suggesting Iraq is Bush's Vietnam.  Tens of 1000's of troops died in Vietnam.  We've yet to reach the 1000 mark in Iraq. More importantly we have an ally in the Kurds.  We need to get real here & make use of that. Trying to build a new Iraq for both those who supported the old regime & those who were oppressed by it can't work.  I think Bush knows this.  He just doesn't know how to politically spin it so the media will accept it.

If you say the UN is not the answer then please explain to me how the first thing that the United States must do is enforce United Nations resolutions against Iraq? Either the UN is there for us to enforce its resolutions otherwise you undercut your reasoning for the war.

 

Even the neo-conservatives like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz said that WMD were just a reason for an invasion of Iraq that they knew the American public would get behind, not anything based in reality if Iraq had WMD or not.

 

The Kurds don't trust us at all. Firstly, it was the US who gave Saddam the weapons that were used to slaughter the Kurds in the 1980s. Secondly, we give lots of military aid to Turkey who does its own mass slaughtering of Kurds (In fact, the UN resolution condemning the treatment of the Kurds, Turkey only voted for it if the US guaranteed there would be no resolution condemning the Turkish slaughtering of the Kurds.)

 

American companies are not going to leave, you say. Gee, that may be a reason as to why the Iraqi people just might be a tad bit pissed. They lived under oppression of Saddam, we "liberate" them and have American companies moving in taking jobs away from Iraqis (yeah, the Nation had an interesting article about how almost all the good jobs are going to Americans and all the s*** jobs get to go to the Iraqis) So, they might be just a tad bit angry about that. Or maybe there is a lot of uprising in Fallujah after we massacred a bunch of civilians there in a market (accidental bomb drop) and opened fire on unarmed protesters in 2003?

 

As for your Vietnam comment, I am in close contact with Joe Miller. He served in the Navy and was in Vietnam in 1964 until 1968. After getting back, he joined Vietnam Veterans Against the War. He said the casualties for Vietnam and this Iraq war are pretty much even for the first year that we were in Vietnam.

[israel4ever]

yeah...the same guy who created your job...

 

thanks mr department of homeland security...shut your mouth when it comes to the president

I've been here for almost 6 years, slick!

 

We were the INS then, and it ran a hell of a lot better!

 

Bush sucks!!!

[israel4ever]

Ok, time for a lesson in the laws of war.

 

A protected site, such as a mosque, is a place that is to be left alone if at all possible in times of war due to religous considerations. 

 

HOWEVER

 

When a protected site is used for military purposes, such as staging an attack or storing weapons or being used as cover for people shooting at other people, then it loses it's protected status and becomes a legitimate target.

Unfortunately, this is the m.o. of Arabs.

 

They are f***ing cowards; they hide behind women, children, in mosques, etc.

 

They won't "fight like men"...we need to be as ruthless as they are. We need to "vaporize" 'em!

[whitesox247]

A man died and went to heaven. As he stood in front of St. Peter at the Pearly Gates, he saw a huge wall of clocks behind him. He asked, "What are all those clocks?"

 

St. Peter answered, "Those are Lie-Clocks. Everyone on Earth has a Lie-Clock. Every time you lie the hands on your clock will move."

 

"Oh," said the man, "whose clock is that?" "That's Mother Teresa's. The hands have never moved, indicating that she never told a lie."

 

"Incredible," said the man.

 

"And whose clock is that one?" the man asked. St. Peter responded, "That's Abraham Lincoln's clock. The hands have moved twice, telling us that Abe told only two lies in his entire life."

 

"Where's Bush's clock?" asked the man.

 

"Oh, that's in Jesus' office. He's using it as a ceiling fan."

[israel4ever]

Whitesox 247...

[JUGGERNAUT]

I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS A FAST REPLY ????????

 

Your points & my response to them:

The UN is for appearances only. It gives the impression of world diplomacy & debate. When it comes to actually doing anything it usually does more harm than good. Of course anything it does it seems can never be done without a scandal of a get rich quick scheme for someone.

 

The reasoning for the war is really quite simple. It wasn't WMD's, Saddam's failure to adhere to UN resolutions or any of the other UN sentimental bull s***.

It was simply to create an IRON HAND UNITED STATES PRESENCE right smack in the enemy's F'g backyard!

Any one who doesn't understand the strategic importance of Iraq in that area with respect to:

1-intelligence gathering

2-quick strikes against terrorist camps in nearby countries

3-watchdog on Saudi Arabia

4-quick strike capability against any country that threatens Israel

5-Iron fist to safeguard OPEC oil supplies

 

I think some of you are F'g pansy-arsed dreamers who think this world is filled with

wonderful church going howdy do thank you very much people. It's not. It's filled with selfish, F U, T I T A, your momma types.

 

That being the case it's always best to watch the hooligans in their own back yard.

 

As for the WMD argument, wake the F up!

What came as a DIRECT result of the victory in Iraq?

Libya's confession of possessing nuclear & biological WMD's!!!!

Talk about a F'g eye-opener! We, Israel, & the UK intelligence agencies didn't have

a F'g clue about this!

 

As for the Kurds do you watch or read anything that presently covers Iraq or are you stuck in the 80's? I suggest you should because they seem pretty damn trusting of us right now. In Northern Iraq right now where the Kurds pretty much control the government they are adopting US traditions & capitalism like it's their first day in Sunday school. It's a completely different atmosphere from before. As far as Turkey goes, we occupy the F'g country south of it's border. WTF does America give a s*** what Turkey thinks?

 

Capitalism breeds American imperialism because Americans are quicker & more powerful to move capital than any other nation on the planet! Probably in the solar system. You can't build an economy w/out capitalization. The Iraqi people don't have any means of capitalization. Saddam owned or controlled all those entities.

Now grant it a large group of Iraqi's are too illiterate to understand this. Which is

why we are spending billions to revamp & guide the educational system.

 

Finally, who the F cares how many people died in the 1st year in Vietnam?

It's a completely useless stat to even suggest. There is no N Vietnamese army backed by China in Iraq. There is small band of guerilla fighters who are adept as snipers & kamikazee attackers. There's not even a remote SIMILARITY to Vietnam!

If you want to make an analogy it's more like Bosnia/Kosovo where UNITED NATIONS troops continue to get slaughtered each day. Or don't you F'g read world news about the cess-pool Clinton left there?

 

 

Pardon my use of capitals & agitated tone. It's a message board & I to like to have a little fun. It's definitely not personal in any way. I like to stereo-type on sports boards. It's more fun. Ok, sure it's sarcastic fun, but hey we are all adults ..no?

[JUGGERNAUT]

Whitesox 247...   

That can be said for any politician .. num nuts

[LDF]

Think about life for the average Iraqi. Sadaam was the leader for almost their entire lives. They do not know any other way of life. They are much more likely to be a victim of violence today than before we came to liberate.

 

Unemployment is up, life is very uncertain. I can understand why there is anger and resentment.

 

And guess what? Some people do not want a US lifestyle. Amazing isn't it? 

But our attitude has been on more than one time in our history that we are going to give you US democracy if we have to kill everyone who is opposed to it.

 

Still I think we should still vote Bush, he's funny

i never said a thing about converting them to america way of lifestyle.

[israel4ever]

The US needs to get the hell out of the UN.

 

We get ZERO benefit from being a part thereof.

[JUGGERNAUT]

i never said a thing about converting them to america way of lifestyle.

The per capita income in Iraq is $610. It's expected to jump to $810 by yr's end.

Before the war it was about $2000.

 

The per capita income in the US is $37,555.00.

 

WTF doesn't want the US life style?

It's our God given destiny to Americanize the world.

We just prefer to use the dollar instead of the gun, but we'll do it whichever way you prefer.

 

Now if you want to say not everybody want's capitalism, well .. it's the GLOBAL economy now & well that includes everybody. Sorry but capitalism is the only game

on the planet now. Dissidents not allowed.

 

[JUGGERNAUT]

The US needs to get the hell out of the UN.

 

We get ZERO benefit from being a part thereof.

Now now let's not get extreme here. The UN does serve a purpose. It creates the fantasy that nations with little real wealth have a say against the G7 bad boys.

 

Without the UN, they have only the IMF, World Bank, & WTO to create that fantasy force them. But only the UN has any military resources. So it's a pretty big part of the fantasy.

 

I think it's important in that regards. But it should be restructed in terms of voting power. There should be 2 houses:

1) The World Senate : every nation gets 2 senators

2) The World House : 435 total representatives divided in accordance to each nations wealth. Needless to say the USA would be the CA of the World House.

 

A vote can now pass by either 2/3rds in either the House or the Senate or by majority in both the Senate & the House. This should apply for the IMF, World Bank, & WTO as well. Any world organization would be better off following our lead.

 

What could be better than to pattern the world off the greatest system on the planet?