I was wrong about Bush

[cwsox]

as the father of an active duty Marine, all the big talking war hawks here, your talk don't mean s*** unless you are enlisted - you believe in it, the put your ass where your mouth is and enlist

 

Bush opposed the Department of Homeland Security, it was pushed by the Dems and signed onto by Republicans and when Bush knew he was losing in Congress big time and would have to veto it and get over ridden, he pulled one of his flip flops so to credit Bush for the Dept of Homeland Secuity is absurd

 

this is not Stalin's USSR - we can bash the president all we want and especially in time of national crisis it it imperitive to lift one's voice in the national dialogue and dissent as fully as one wants

 

don't want to be fired on from a mosque? don't attack it, don't fly over it

 

they aren't attacking us in our country, we are attacking them and theirs and that tends to piss people off

 

some of the comments in this thread are astounding - anything who thinks it is someone's "God given right" to impose anything on others knows nothing of God and is as arrogant and as dangerous as Osama Bin laden - in fact, you would be the clone

[whitesox247]

I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS A FAST REPLY ????????

Look on the bottom, its the special feature that ss2k4 lives off of.

[BrandoFan]

Finally, who the F cares how many people died in the 1st year in Vietnam?

 

The reasoning for the war is really quite simple. It wasn't WMD's, Saddam's failure to adhere to UN resolutions or any of the other UN sentimental bull s***. It was simply to create an IRON HAND UNITED STATES PRESENCE right smack in the enemy's F'g backyard!............WTF does America give a s*** what Turkey thinks? 

 

It's our God given destiny to Americanize the world.

 

Dissidents not allowed

 

:headshake

 

I bet you sleep like a goddamn baby, don't you, John? A parasitic soul makes baby Jesus cry.

 

I think some of you are F'g pansy-arsed dreamers

 

I hope you DO realize that most of the "pansy-arses" posting on this site could slice your throat from ear to ear with a Bic pen. You'd be suprised how worthless those kickboxing lessons can be rendered if need be. Alas, the market for neanderthal flesh is a bit depressed these days.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Now now let's not get extreme here.  The UN does serve a purpose.  It creates the fantasy that nations with little real wealth have a say against the G7 bad boys.

 

Without the UN, they have only the IMF, World Bank, & WTO to create that fantasy force them.  But only the UN has any military resources. So it's a pretty big part of the fantasy.

 

I think it's important in that regards.  But it should be restructed in terms of voting power.  There should be 2 houses:

1) The World Senate : every nation gets 2 senators

2) The World House  : 435 total representatives divided in accordance to each nations wealth.  Needless to say the USA would be the CA of the World House.

 

A vote can now pass by either 2/3rds in either the House or the Senate or by majority in both the Senate & the House.  This should apply for the IMF, World Bank, & WTO as well. Any world organization would be better off following our lead.

 

What could be better than to pattern the world off the greatest system on the planet?

Yeah, so then the "world congress" can gang up on us and force changes that are detrimental.

 

Fact is that no other nation should have a say in how we do business. We set the standard for everybody else to follow, we create more wealth than anybody anywhere and have the highest standard of living. You allow an outside body to mess with our way of doing things and it all goes to s***.

[israel4ever]

Yeah, so then the "world congress" can gang up on us and force changes that are detrimental.

 

Fact is that no other nation should have a say in how we do business.  We set the standard for everybody else to follow, we create more wealth than anybody anywhere and have the highest standard of living.  You allow an outside body to mess with our way of doing things and it all goes to s***.

Right on, Nuke!!!

 

[Texsox]

as the father of an active duty Marine, all the big talking war hawks here, your talk don't mean s*** unless you are enlisted - you believe in it, the put your ass where your mouth is and enlist

Sorry CW, I have to gently disagree with this. There are only so many slots in the military, and if we limit debate to only those who are serving, we silence too many Americans. Like it or not, young people can jump in AARP style public policy debates, straights can weigh in on gay rights, whites for blacks, blacks for whites, etc.

 

America, you have to love it.

 

Now I asked my favorite Bush appologist and war hawk if he felt Iraq was worth his son dieing for and all of a sudden he realized maybe this wasn't such a good place to be.

 

Yesterday a flag draped coffin was laid to rest here. War came barging into our lives when a 2003 graduate of a local High School, a honor student, well respected by his peers, was brought home from Iraq. He paid the ultimate price. I hear how we sacraficed his live to safe Iraqi lives from Saddam's torture. I pray we aren't just replacing American lives for the Iraqis.

[bmags]

um...good point.

 

I live in very conservative naperville...well, a naperville township in aurora...and I have to say it does sicken me many times to hear the convos people talk about concerning Iraq. But what concerns me even more is these people are SO numb to soldiers dying in Iraq, they dismiss it as necissary, yet get so high strung over a right booby being on television, thats what their motivation is. Death okay...NUdity, everyone must die.

[israel4ever]

as the father of an active duty Marine, all the big talking war hawks here, your talk don't mean s*** unless you are enlisted - you believe in it, the put your ass where your mouth is and enlist

 

Bush opposed the Department of Homeland Security, it was pushed by the Dems and signed onto by Republicans and when Bush knew he was losing in Congress big time and would have to veto it and get over ridden, he pulled one of his flip flops so to credit Bush for the Dept of Homeland Secuity is absurd

 

this is not Stalin's USSR - we can bash the president all we want and especially in time of national crisis it it imperitive to lift one's voice in the national dialogue and dissent as fully as one wants

 

don't want to be fired on from a mosque?  don't attack it, don't fly over it

 

they aren't attacking us in our country, we are attacking them and theirs and that tends to piss people off

 

some of the comments in this thread are astounding - anything who thinks it is someone's "God given right" to impose anything on others knows nothing of God and is as arrogant and as dangerous as Osama Bin laden - in fact, you would be the clone

First...G-d bless your son for serving. I would like to thank him (through you) for protecting the US. I hope that he comes home healthy, and very soon.

 

Second...like our "beloved" President, (who was a draft dodger, now is a "Hawk"), some of us were fortunate enough to be able to go to college and not have to enlist, (or be drafted), and go to war.

 

Third...I believe that Bush pushed for the Dept. of Homeland Security; it fallis in line with the Republican credo of "less government". It was a knee jerk reaction to 9/11, kinda like shutting the barn door after all the animals have left. Being that I work for DHS (formerly INS) I have seen some changes for the better, but not a whole lot. The system in which we register nationals from "suspect countries" is flawed, we don't have the man-power to do follow ups. I feel that if we're worried about terrorist attacks, insteda of registering these individuals, we should not issue any visas to Iraqis, Iranians, Syrian, Saudi Arabian, etc.

 

Finally...with re. the mosques, in war you have to kill your enemies where they are; if they're hiding in mosques, attack the mosques. If they're hiding amongst their civilian population (i.e. the "palestinians"), you attack them there!

 

"War is Hell".

 

 

[rafacosta]

Finally...with re. the mosques, in war you have to kill your enemies where they are; if they're hiding in mosques, attack the mosques. If they're hiding amongst their civilian population (i.e. the "palestinians"), you attack them there!

No comments...

[israel4ever]

No comments...

Explain please!

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

as the father of an active duty Marine, all the big talking war hawks here, your talk don't mean s*** unless you are enlisted - you believe in it, the put your ass where your mouth is and enlist

Enlistment documents.......check

 

Depolyment to Iraq......check

 

4 months in Kuwait training and 5 months in combat earning combat patch........check

 

Anything else I need?

[israel4ever]

Enlistment documents.......check

 

Depolyment to Iraq......check

 

4 months in Kuwait training and 5 months in combat earning combat patch........check

 

Anything else I need?

G-d speed, Nuke!!!

 

 

[JUGGERNAUT]

What EXACTLY does FAST REPLY do?

 

 

As for the rest of you go shopping for a sense of humor! Sheesh! It's a message board . Most people who have any history of me know that from time to time I get in SMACK moods & it just takes a topic of interest to set me off. I realize this makes it difficult to discern SMACK from serious points but I think if you use your brain you can figure it out.

 

For your information I was in ROTC. Did my basic, served my time & that's it for me. I learned enough in that time to validate some assertions I experienced in ROTC. That is that I have better chance of killing the enemy or staying alive with a gun of my own than a US military issued one. The quality assurance involved in our military hardware is piss-poor to say the least. When it doesn't work like it should in combat exercises how the F am I to have confidence in it on the battle field? I hate the lose & sometimes that was the reason.

 

That experience soured me probably for life on the US military. I believe no dollar should be spared to insure that every private to 4 star general should have the highest quality assured equipment available. I don't know why given our present state of science & tech that the military continues to have DOUBLE DIGIT defect rates! This tells me that no matter what legislation is pass the capitalistic side of arms production & deal making in the Pentagon will always result in corners being cut.

====================================================

 

Please spare me your sympathy towards the Iraqi terrorists that fire upon coalition troops from mosques. That has to be the most narrow-minded viewpoint one can take. The WAR is about securing the safety of oil supplies. You may not like that & you may not think it's fair, but the GLOBAL economy runs on OIL. We can ill-afford a Saddam to threaten the regions production any more.

 

I noticed how none of your DOVES commented on Libya coming forward with their WMD programs. That's probably because you have nothing to debate on this subject. It's a direct result of our sweeping victory in Iraq & that's pretty much indisputable. As is the state of preparedness Libya had in terms of using these WMD's. Reading is fundamental but you have to be open-minded to read it ALL.

 

Since you have so much sympathy for the Iraqi loyalists to Saddam (Shiites no doubt) where was your sympathy when Saddam was loading Kurds & other rebels feet first into large plastic shredder machines? This was documented on ABC news at the time the story broke. The estimations are that since GW 1, Saddam had tortured/killed some 200-300 thousand Kurdish rebels or just rebels in general.

Where was your sympathy for their lives?

 

It was wrong to have not backed the Kurds in GW 1. But that was a decision not made by the US but rather the Coalition & the UN. They set the parameters in that war. This was a huge mistake & cost us more American lives in 2003-4. This is yet another example of why I don't trust the UN to decide the fate of Americans. There is no love lost between the power brokers of the UN (the European Union) & America.

 

In my opinion the voting structure of the newly formed EU is like a gang running the UN. Each nation in the EU still gets a single vote but now they are more likely to be united in that vote. In my opinion to even the score America should have equal representation from her 50 states. CA is larger than most nations in the EU!

====================================================

 

WAR is a horrible tragedy, but sometimes it is necc. Stop ignoring the history of the people that America is fighting. We were public enemy #1 to those people before the war so nothing has really changed. If you don't like it so much than you should campaign against the main catalyst: capitalism. Because it's impossible to have one without the other. If you don't understand why take some history courses.

[israel4ever]

What EXACTLY does FAST REPLY do?

 

 

As for the rest of you go shopping for a sense of humor!  Sheesh!  It's a message board . Most people who have any history of me know that from time to time I get in SMACK moods & it just takes a topic of interest to set me off.  I realize this makes it difficult to discern SMACK from serious points but I think if you use your brain you can figure it out. 

 

For your information I was in ROTC.  Did my basic, served my time & that's it for me.  I learned enough in that time to validate some assertions I experienced in ROTC.  That is that I have better chance of killing the enemy or staying alive with a gun of my own than a US military issued one. The quality assurance involved in our military hardware is piss-poor to say the least.  When it doesn't work like it should in combat exercises how the F am I to have confidence in it on the battle field?  I hate the lose & sometimes that was the reason.

 

That experience soured me probably for life on the US military.  I believe no dollar should be spared to insure that every private to 4 star general should have the highest quality assured equipment available.  I don't know why given our present state of science & tech that the military continues to have DOUBLE DIGIT defect rates! This tells me that no matter what legislation is pass the capitalistic side of arms production & deal making in the Pentagon will always result in corners being cut.

====================================================

 

Please spare me your sympathy towards the Iraqi terrorists that fire upon coalition troops from mosques. That has to be the most narrow-minded viewpoint one can take.  The WAR is about securing the safety of oil supplies.  You may not like that & you may not think it's fair, but the GLOBAL economy runs on OIL. We can ill-afford a Saddam to threaten the regions production any more. 

 

I noticed how none of your DOVES commented on Libya coming forward with their WMD programs.  That's probably because you have nothing to debate on this subject.  It's a direct result of our sweeping victory in Iraq & that's pretty much indisputable.  As is the state of preparedness Libya had in terms of using these WMD's.  Reading is fundamental but you have to be open-minded to read it ALL.

 

Since you have so much sympathy for the Iraqi loyalists to Saddam (Shiites no doubt) where was your sympathy when Saddam was loading Kurds & other rebels feet first into large plastic shredder machines?  This was documented on ABC news at the time the story broke.  The estimations are that since GW 1, Saddam had tortured/killed some 200-300 thousand Kurdish rebels or just rebels in general.

Where was your sympathy for their lives?

 

It was wrong to have not backed the Kurds in GW 1. But that was a decision not made by the US but rather the Coalition & the UN.  They set the parameters in that war. This was a huge mistake & cost us more American lives in 2003-4.  This is yet another example of why I don't trust the UN to decide the fate of Americans. There is no love lost between the power brokers of the UN (the European Union) & America.

 

In my opinion the voting structure of the newly formed EU is like a gang running the UN.  Each nation in the EU still gets a single vote but now they are more likely to be united in that vote. In my opinion to even the score America should have equal representation from her 50 states.  CA is larger than most nations in the EU!

====================================================

 

WAR is a horrible tragedy, but sometimes it is necc.  Stop ignoring the history of the people that America is fighting.  We were public enemy #1 to those people before the war so nothing has really changed. If you don't like it so much than you should campaign against the main catalyst: capitalism. Because it's impossible to have one without the other. If you don't understand why take some history courses.

I agree with you 100%, Juggernaut.

 

 

 

BTW...I don't know what FAST REPLY does either.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Seriously, I have mixed feelings for the war. I pray daily that every soldier takes excellent care of their arms & that God does his part to prevent malfunctions/jamming.

 

But I'm not the die-hard capitalist I once was.

I realize that our presence their is more about dollars than freedom. The power brokers behind the capitalist engine are not nationalists. They don't have a signature of any one nation. In fact they probably are citizens of many nations. I very well imagine that while the French govt condemns the war, there are much more powerful capitalists in that country in favor of it. Today's capitalistic engine runs heavy on OIL. I was never for/against it, I'm glad it brought Libya to the table on disarming her WMD's, but I realize that now that we are there America is a little bit safer & we absolutely have to see this thing through.

 

So for those of you who do have relatives over there as I do there are many causes that they are fighting for:

 

1) The end of the regime has ended the torture of those who opposed Saddam. For ever American who has died in the war his efforts have probably saved another 1000 from being tortured.

 

2) Building a new nation. These people were starving under Saddam's regime. Education was practically non-existant. Jobs were driven by Saddam's regime.

Now America is building them schools, furnishing them text books, & feeding the hungry. America is moving as quickly as possible to help them transition to a state

where they can both protect & serve to defend their new way of life. What's more is that they are doing it in such a way that organized crime is having a hard time growing there. This is in stark contrast to what has happened in Russia.

 

3) Without question they are helping to keep America safe. Dividing the resources of terrorists between Iraq & America makes America safer.

 

4) Regardless of whether you were for/against the Iraq war it would be unconsciencable to abandon them now. We have a duty to protect the lives of the many millions of Iraqi's that believe in us there. How can you really expect the soldiers that have lived their lives with these people for all these many months to simply abandon them? I don't think you can imagine the sense of family that must be feeling with these people. They are not just fighting a war. They are building schools, teaching in those schools, & helping the everyday lives of Iraqi. I imagine

there are many who in a real sense have adopted some Iraqi children in this effort.

Mentoring them as I write this. That is not something you can just get up & leave.

 

5) Every soldier serving in Iraq today is a symbol of peace & prosperity not just for the Iraqi people but the world. If America succeeds in their endeavor there the world will take notice & listen. It may be hard to imagine but let's say in 2010 the per capita income in Iraq is raised to say $5000.00. That will be better than 2 times what it ever was under Saddam. This is a real & obtainable goal. Communist regimes can hide information all they want but they can't hide economic data in a world economy. An economically strong Iraq means a major victory for the American way of life. It will symbolize the strength of American ideals & virtues more so than any diplomatic resolution could ever dream of. Common people all over the world we'll see what happened in Iraq & believe in America like never before.

[Spiff]

What EXACTLY does FAST REPLY do?

 

 

As for the rest of you go shopping for a sense of humor!  Sheesh!  It's a message board . Most people who have any history of me know that from time to time I get in SMACK moods & it just takes a topic of interest to set me off.  I realize this makes it difficult to discern SMACK from serious points but I think if you use your brain you can figure it out. 

 

For your information I was in ROTC.  Did my basic, served my time & that's it for me.  I learned enough in that time to validate some assertions I experienced in ROTC.  That is that I have better chance of killing the enemy or staying alive with a gun of my own than a US military issued one. The quality assurance involved in our military hardware is piss-poor to say the least.  When it doesn't work like it should in combat exercises how the F am I to have confidence in it on the battle field?  I hate the lose & sometimes that was the reason.

 

That experience soured me probably for life on the US military.  I believe no dollar should be spared to insure that every private to 4 star general should have the highest quality assured equipment available.  I don't know why given our present state of science & tech that the military continues to have DOUBLE DIGIT defect rates! This tells me that no matter what legislation is pass the capitalistic side of arms production & deal making in the Pentagon will always result in corners being cut.

====================================================

 

Please spare me your sympathy towards the Iraqi terrorists that fire upon coalition troops from mosques. That has to be the most narrow-minded viewpoint one can take.  The WAR is about securing the safety of oil supplies.  You may not like that & you may not think it's fair, but the GLOBAL economy runs on OIL. We can ill-afford a Saddam to threaten the regions production any more. 

 

I noticed how none of your DOVES commented on Libya coming forward with their WMD programs.  That's probably because you have nothing to debate on this subject.  It's a direct result of our sweeping victory in Iraq & that's pretty much indisputable.  As is the state of preparedness Libya had in terms of using these WMD's.  Reading is fundamental but you have to be open-minded to read it ALL.

 

Since you have so much sympathy for the Iraqi loyalists to Saddam (Shiites no doubt) where was your sympathy when Saddam was loading Kurds & other rebels feet first into large plastic shredder machines?  This was documented on ABC news at the time the story broke.  The estimations are that since GW 1, Saddam had tortured/killed some 200-300 thousand Kurdish rebels or just rebels in general.

Where was your sympathy for their lives?

 

It was wrong to have not backed the Kurds in GW 1. But that was a decision not made by the US but rather the Coalition & the UN.  They set the parameters in that war. This was a huge mistake & cost us more American lives in 2003-4.  This is yet another example of why I don't trust the UN to decide the fate of Americans. There is no love lost between the power brokers of the UN (the European Union) & America.

 

In my opinion the voting structure of the newly formed EU is like a gang running the UN.  Each nation in the EU still gets a single vote but now they are more likely to be united in that vote. In my opinion to even the score America should have equal representation from her 50 states.  CA is larger than most nations in the EU!

====================================================

 

WAR is a horrible tragedy, but sometimes it is necc.  Stop ignoring the history of the people that America is fighting.  We were public enemy #1 to those people before the war so nothing has really changed. If you don't like it so much than you should campaign against the main catalyst: capitalism. Because it's impossible to have one without the other. If you don't understand why take some history courses.

Game, set, and match.

[israel4ever]

Amen!

[Texsox]

Mother, mother

There's too many of you crying

Brother, brother, brother

There's far too many of you dying

You know we've got to find a way

To bring some lovin' here today - Ya

 

Father, father

We don't need to escalate

You see, war is not the answer

For only love can conquer hate

You know we've got to find a way

To bring some lovin' here today

 

Picket lines and picket signs

Don't punish me with brutality

Talk to me, so you can see

Oh, what's going on

What's going on

Ya, what's going on

Ah, what's going on

 

In the mean time

Right on, baby

Right on

Right on

 

Father, father, everybody thinks we're wrong

Oh, but who are they to judge us

Simply because our hair is long

Oh, you know we've got to find a way

To bring some understanding here today

Oh

 

Picket lines and picket signs

Don't punish me with brutality

Talk to me

So you can see

What's going on

Ya, what's going on

Tell me what's going on

I'll tell you what's going on - Uh

Right on baby

Right on baby

[cwsox]

What EXACTLY does FAST REPLY do?

 

 

As for the rest of you go shopping for a sense of humor!  Sheesh!  It's a message board . Most people who have any history of me know that from time to time I get in SMACK moods & it just takes a topic of interest to set me off.  I realize this makes it difficult to discern SMACK from serious points but I think if you use your brain you can figure it out. 

 

For your information I was in ROTC.  Did my basic, served my time & that's it for me.  I learned enough in that time to validate some assertions I experienced in ROTC.  That is that I have better chance of killing the enemy or staying alive with a gun of my own than a US military issued one. The quality assurance involved in our military hardware is piss-poor to say the least.  When it doesn't work like it should in combat exercises how the F am I to have confidence in it on the battle field?  I hate the lose & sometimes that was the reason.

 

That experience soured me probably for life on the US military.  I believe no dollar should be spared to insure that every private to 4 star general should have the highest quality assured equipment available.  I don't know why given our present state of science & tech that the military continues to have DOUBLE DIGIT defect rates! This tells me that no matter what legislation is pass the capitalistic side of arms production & deal making in the Pentagon will always result in corners being cut.

====================================================

 

Please spare me your sympathy towards the Iraqi terrorists that fire upon coalition troops from mosques. That has to be the most narrow-minded viewpoint one can take.  The WAR is about securing the safety of oil supplies.  You may not like that & you may not think it's fair, but the GLOBAL economy runs on OIL. We can ill-afford a Saddam to threaten the regions production any more. 

 

I noticed how none of your DOVES commented on Libya coming forward with their WMD programs.  That's probably because you have nothing to debate on this subject.  It's a direct result of our sweeping victory in Iraq & that's pretty much indisputable.  As is the state of preparedness Libya had in terms of using these WMD's.  Reading is fundamental but you have to be open-minded to read it ALL.

 

Since you have so much sympathy for the Iraqi loyalists to Saddam (Shiites no doubt) where was your sympathy when Saddam was loading Kurds & other rebels feet first into large plastic shredder machines?  This was documented on ABC news at the time the story broke.  The estimations are that since GW 1, Saddam had tortured/killed some 200-300 thousand Kurdish rebels or just rebels in general.

Where was your sympathy for their lives?

 

It was wrong to have not backed the Kurds in GW 1. But that was a decision not made by the US but rather the Coalition & the UN.  They set the parameters in that war. This was a huge mistake & cost us more American lives in 2003-4.  This is yet another example of why I don't trust the UN to decide the fate of Americans. There is no love lost between the power brokers of the UN (the European Union) & America.

 

In my opinion the voting structure of the newly formed EU is like a gang running the UN.  Each nation in the EU still gets a single vote but now they are more likely to be united in that vote. In my opinion to even the score America should have equal representation from her 50 states.  CA is larger than most nations in the EU!

====================================================

 

WAR is a horrible tragedy, but sometimes it is necc.  Stop ignoring the history of the people that America is fighting.  We were public enemy #1 to those people before the war so nothing has really changed. If you don't like it so much than you should campaign against the main catalyst: capitalism. Because it's impossible to have one without the other. If you don't understand why take some history courses.

I find your response to filled with straw arguments that are inconsistent with the reality of what others have argued and what others believe, as well as not aligned with the reality of the subjects you discuss.

 

Sorry ROTC was so rough on you.

 

Sorry that people disagreeing with you is upsetting.

 

The comment about go read history - well, you might try it. It as an amazing thing, the historical record.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Quote:

I find your response to filled with straw arguments that are inconsistent with the reality of what others have argued and what others believe, as well as not aligned with the reality of the subjects you discuss.

 

This is very typical of your side. When you have no factual basis to debate your argument resort to useless, general, & utterly hollow responses. I'm surprised you take yourself serious.

 

Quote:

Sorry that people disagreeing with you is upsetting.

 

Dude, I love it when people disagree. It gives me a chance to BURY them with facts & statistics! It doesn't matter what the subject. I do think it upsets you though.

 

Quote:

The comment about go read history - well, you might try it. It as an amazing thing, the historical record.

 

It sure is. Especially when you read from MORE THAN ONE SOURCE!

 

=================================================

 

To reply to a hollow response with yet another hollow response is just not part of my

character. Here are some more facts for you to digest:

 

The media has not really demonstrated to the American people why militant Muslims

hate them. A story in the NY Times covered a modern day martyr in Russia. Seven years ago in Checzna(sp?) a 19 yr old Russian soldier was captured by militant Muslims as a POW. They gave him an ultimatum: either renounce your faith & remove the cross about your neck or die. He refused & they beheaded him.

 

It really is that cut & dry & it doesn't matter whether you are Russian, American, or French. They hate you & seek your death simply because of what you believe in. Now I'm not suggesting ALL of them do, but certainly enough to cause harm to Christians & Jews alike. This story exemplifies as well the rebirth of Catholicism in Russia. This boy was an Orthodox Catholic which is more strict than the

Church of Rome. In St. Petersburg they now honor him annually & consider him a modern day saint. The main Church has yet to cannonize him as one.

 

=================================================

 

Another reason why we should plan to turn over Iraq to the Kurds:

Because the Sunni & Shiites are causing all the F'g trouble!

We are reluctant to create seek & destroy missions because we are trying to befriend all groups in Iraq. When we depart the Kurds will be more than happy to do this for us.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Seriously,  I have mixed feelings for the war.  I pray daily that every soldier takes excellent care of their arms & that God does his part to prevent malfunctions/jamming.

 

But I'm not the die-hard capitalist I once was. 

I realize that our presence their is more about dollars than freedom.  The power brokers behind the capitalist engine are not nationalists.  They don't have a signature of any one nation.  In fact they probably are citizens of many nations. I very well imagine that while the French govt condemns the war, there are much more powerful capitalists in that country in favor of it.  Today's capitalistic engine runs heavy on OIL.  I was never for/against it, I'm glad it brought Libya to the table on disarming her WMD's, but I realize that now that we are there America is a little bit safer & we absolutely have to see this thing through. 

 

So for those of you who do have relatives over there as I do there are many causes that they are fighting for:

 

1) The end of the regime has ended the torture of those who opposed Saddam.  For ever American who has died in the war his efforts have probably saved another 1000 from being tortured.

 

2) Building a new nation.  These people were starving under Saddam's regime.  Education was practically non-existant. Jobs were driven by Saddam's regime.

Now America is building them schools, furnishing them text books, & feeding the hungry.  America is moving as quickly as possible to help them transition to a state

where they can both protect & serve to defend their new way of life. What's more is that they are doing it in such a way that organized crime is having a hard time growing there.  This is in stark contrast to what has happened in Russia. 

 

3) Without question they are helping to keep America safe.  Dividing the resources of terrorists between Iraq & America makes America safer.

 

4) Regardless of whether you were for/against the Iraq war it would be unconsciencable to abandon them now.  We have a duty to protect the lives of the many millions of Iraqi's that believe in us there.  How can you really expect the soldiers that have lived their lives with these people for all these many months to simply abandon them?  I don't think you can imagine the sense of family that must be feeling with these people.  They are not just fighting a war.  They are building schools, teaching in those schools, & helping the everyday lives of Iraqi. I imagine

there are many who in a real sense have adopted some Iraqi children in this effort.

Mentoring them as I write this.  That is not something you can just get up & leave.

 

5) Every soldier serving in Iraq today is a symbol of peace & prosperity not just for the Iraqi people but the world. If America succeeds in their endeavor there the world will take notice & listen.  It may be hard to imagine but let's say in 2010 the per capita income in Iraq is raised to say $5000.00.  That will be better than 2 times what it ever was under Saddam.  This is a real & obtainable goal. Communist regimes can hide information all they want but they can't hide economic data in a world economy.  An economically strong Iraq means a major victory for the American way of life. It will symbolize the strength of American ideals & virtues more so than any diplomatic resolution could ever dream of.  Common people all over the world we'll see what happened in Iraq & believe in America like never before.

I apologize for taking so long to get back to this. Had an eventful weekend that took up a lot of my time. Anyway, back to the post.

 

Firstly, building schools, giving them health care etc. When that's done in Iraq it's seen as good policy. When national health care and better schools and the like are suggested for America, it's shouted down by most neo-conservatives as outright socialism.

 

I fear the slippery slope of "they're gonna attack so we must attack first" can be used for disasterous purposes. Take, for example the problems with India and Pakistan. They've both got itchy trigger finger and have actually come out saying that they would use the doctrine of pre-emptive war to attack each other. The doctrine has created a slippery slope in the world political arena.

 

A lot of high ranking troops said that US troops simply did not have enough troops to adequately perform in Iraq. They're simply undermanned there. Some Iraqi security forces put in place have said that they did not sign up to fight their own people. Not to mention that as of October the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq will be bankrupt until after the election here.

 

If, and that's a very strong if, we rebuild Iraq then we do not rebuild Iraq. Iraqis cannot get jobs since all the major contracting jobs and even the grunt work in Iraq goes to Americans. So, US companies are getting a lot of money to rebuild Iraq yet most Iraqis are unemployed. There was a good article in the Nation on this recently but I don't have the time currently (going to dinner with a friend relatively soon) to get it but just do a little search and you can find it if you want to read it. I also don't know if you saw the recent pending legislation...

 

Congress brought twin bills, S. 89 and H.R. 163 forward this year, entitled the Universal National Service Act of 2003, "To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons [age 18--26] in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes." These active bills currently sit in the Committee on Armed Services. Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era remember. College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the US signed a "Smart Border Declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs, John Manley, and US Homeland Security Director, Gov. Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30-point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter. Underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their cur-rent semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year. If this all happens, the draft beings in spring 2005.

 

We have a president who said in 2000 that we would not "nation build". And if we're really promoting the American way of life, then why silence freedom of speech by closing al-Sadr's newspaper just because he said stuff we didn't like?

 

And as to your point that America is safer, http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?articleid=2181 It's a libertarian paleo-conservative site that is totally about not wanting to use our military in offensive wars.

[Steff]

The per capita income in the US is $37,555.00.

Holy cow.. is that for real..???

[kapkomet]

Holy cow.. is that for real..??? 

As with anything else, it's what's REPORTED. What about those who are not a part of the "survey"? Just sayin.

[Texsox]

As with anything else, it's what's REPORTED.  What about those who are not a part of the "survey"?  Just sayin.

Sometimes it is gross national earning as computed from tax returns divided by the number of families. And they do try and account for "missing" people.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Sometimes it is gross national earning as computed from tax returns divided by the number of families. And they do try and account for "missing" people.

It's just an average used in comparison to other countries averages.

In no way should you take this to mean that most Americans earn that much per year.

 

Visit the site for the office of budget & accounting for better distribution numbers.

I think the Bell curve is around 21-23000 last I look.

 

Sideshow I'm glad you weighed in. The reason why neo-conservatives support it in Iraq but protest against it in America is because of the distribution of $ in education in America. We can assume that administrators are practically non-existent in Iraq so most of the $ spent is going toward books, schools, & educating Iraqi's. But in America or if you prefer IL the average pay for administrators last year was between 80-90K. The average pay for teachers was between 50-60K. This includes suburbs. The peak compensation for a principal was 1.3MIL. The average per principal was 230K. When did competing for principals become like competing for CEO's? This is just outright wrong & that's why some states are now seeking to dissolve their school boards entirely . Philadelphia was the first by privatizing their school system. They cut the cost in 1/2 & so far post higher test scores than before privatization.

 

There is no question that taking control of the education of a predominantly Muslim country where militants have been in power for decades will improve the safety of the region. It won't happen overnight as all revolutions are followed with turmoil

but if our commitment is there then it will happen.

 

That bill has no chance of winning but I too am appauled by the introduction of it.

It's almost as if some in Congress are saying soldiers cost less than technology

so do it. It would be better to regulate defense contractors to where they are

forced to work harder for less than to do this. The future is an unmaned air force,

so this should be the direction of other armed forces as well.

 

No one is advocating that Bush is a good choice. In America voting always has been & always will be choosing the lesser of 2 evils. If someone really believes America will be safer under Kerry than Bush than let's debate why. Otherwise the choice is obvious. I often think it doesn't matter any more who gets elected because special interest groups weild the greatest power. It's getting harder all the time to exercise one's right to vote.