Ordonez: Sox deal 'close' to happening

[LDF]

jr like every owner gets his advice from those who he hires(kw).

 

last yr i believe that jr was seeing how thing were going to go, he went out and got colon, the trades, granted some of them were assine, but they were for the purpose of building.

 

i think the biggest fault lays on kw feet or shoulder.

 

ill advice move may have done more harm.

 

i am a mags fan as i am a jv fan. but i am saying this, if mags doesn't want to come back for the money that is reasonable and not vlad's money, then trade him for pieces of the puzzle that can put us that one step closer to putting a winning team on the field.

 

i know jr is not afraid of spending the money and he has mention that many times, but he will not do it for the sake of spending............. which is smart.

 

is mags worth 14 or 15 mil a yr............ i prob would say no. is mags worth 12-13 a yr and make it a 5 to 6 yr contract........... yes......... if mags doesn't think so, then trade him.

[BrandoFan]

i know jr is not afraid of spending the money and he has mention that many times, but he will not do it for the sake of spending............. which is smart

 

Is it though?

 

Remember how damn close Sox came to postseason last year? He refused to spend just a mill on Urbina (Marlins later got him for peanuts) come July once it became clear Koch and White were worthless and were blowing games left and right.

 

Everyone was begging him to get a fairly cheap journeyman starter at the Break -- he would take place of Wright/Cotts/Porzio Sure Loss Trio in the 5-spot and maybe come up with a much needed extra win or two.

 

It literally came down to a game or two in September -- if as a result of those small acquisitions, Sox were leading Minny by, say, 4 games instead of 2 when they faced them at USCF, I believe Twins would have been more desperate and Sox would have hung on to the lead in the end.

 

Face it, Reindorf sold us all out for a measly 2 Million in the historical All-Star year. Knowing what you know of his 20+ year tenure, there is NO guarantee that he will keep future payrolls above 55-60 Mill -- if that.

 

Sox must win, win, win, win this year. Otherwise, what's the point of re-signing Maggs if the team will be in a semi-rebuilding mode in 2005 and beyond?

[LDF]

Is it though?

 

Remember how damn close Sox came to postseason last year? He refused to spend just a mill on Urbina (Marlins later got him for peanuts) come July once it became clear Koch and White were worthless and were blowing games left and right.

 

Everyone was begging him to get a fairly cheap journeyman starter at the Break -- he would take place of  Wright/Cotts/Porzio Sure Loss Trio in the 5-spot and maybe come up with a much needed extra win or two.

 

It literally came down to a game or two in September -- if as a result of those small acquisitions, Sox were leading Minny by, say, 4 games instead of 2 when they faced them at USCF, I believe Twins would have been more desperate and Sox would have hung on to the lead in the end. 

 

Face it, Reindorf sold us all out for a measly 2 Million in the historical All-Star year.    Knowing what you know of his 20+ year tenure, there is NO guarantee that he will keep future payrolls above 55-60 Mill -- if that.   

 

Sox must win, win, win, win this year.  Otherwise, what's the point of re-signing Maggs if the team will be in a semi-rebuilding mode in 2005 and beyond?

it wasn't his job to make trades, who job does that falls on?

 

if you remember, the sox were desperately trying to get more pitching, but it got to point that teams were giving up toooo much for that last minute trade.

 

maybe if we didn't give up too much in the everett trade, was he really worth getting, maybe we could've done or given up something more for that last trade.

 

i was around and don't know what about anything in the post season part and will refuse to discuss that part. the last part of my season ender in early oct of last yr and my season started about a month ago.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

1. To the Sox?  No way.  Even in 2002 he wasn't worth it.

 

2. 5/70 is what the market will give him. My problem?  Sox could barely pay that kind of money to Barry Bonds and Magglio will never be Bonds.

 

That's why I was so pissed in 2002 and 2003 when we played s***ty ball and owndership refused to spend more than 50 Mill.    THEN, while Maggs, Lee, Burhle and Co. were underrpaid, coming on the heels of 2000 triumph.....THEN, Reindorf should have been spending 75-80 Mill and building a Championship caliber teams......NOW, its's become that much harder -- very little payroll room and people want to get paid big-time.

 

Now, we cannot afford Magglio. Not even close. The only way Sox could keep him if the following occurs:

 

--Magglio breaks out for a Sammy Sosa 1998-type season

--Sox blow everybody away, win the division and make noise in the playoffs Cubs-style

--At least 2.4-2.5 Mill fans go through the gates to show Reinford fans WILL come out fi the team is winning.

I'll take Magglio over roid boy any time of day on any day of the week. Maggs is 3 times the player that needle nose Bonds is and 10 times the man.

 

Could Bonds put up those numbers of his without the juice? I think not.

[LDF]

i will not dispute that with you, however there is more to having the ability to play ball. some superstars has that extra something, charm or whatever that attract people to them. roids has it, bonds does and somemany more does to. i don't know if mags has it.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

i will not dispute that with you, however there is more to having the ability to play ball. some superstars has that extra something, charm or whatever that attract people to them. roids has it, bonds does and somemany more does to. i don't know if mags has it.

I think that's a symptom of where he plays. For the most part nobody outside Chicago knows anything about the White Sox so I can see how that'd be a problem but Maggs doesn't seem to me to be the type of player that really relishes the spotlight anyway. I could very well be wrong but that's just how I read it.

[BrandoFan]

it wasn't his job to make trades, who job does that falls on?

 

if you remember, the sox were desperately trying to get more pitching, but it got to point that teams were giving up toooo much for that last minute trade.

 

maybe if we didn't give up too much in the everett trade, was he really worth getting, maybe we could've done or given up something more for that last trade.

 

i was around and don't know what about anything in the post season part and will refuse to discuss that part. the last part of my season ender in early oct of last yr and my season started about a month ago.

Come on, LDF, Knnny is not a good GM, but even HE probably was pushing for more help. There was no money to spend, plain and simple. Even the Everett/Alomar deals in July, Sox only spend a few 100K, preferring instead to give up the farm, literally...........REINDORF, in all his empty promise glory, f***ED UP -- tried to win at the CHEAPEST possible price and it BACKFIRED big-time. Sox should have won that division by 5-10 games even they make the right moves when Minny was down and out for a while.....Damn, just thinking about what could have been makes my skin crawl.

 

I am not talking about getting Kip Wells or Randy Johnson. Just a decent #5 and a decent long reliver. By May, everyone was sounding alarms re: Wright, White and Koch and yet they were allowed to BURY the team. JR wasn't about to spend an extra mill or three on good players.....

 

I don't know about you, but if it's between making the playoffs and getting your fans back to the park but giving up Arnie Munoz or Feliz Diaz......and keeping them and fizzling out like we did.....I'll take the former. These chances don't come often.

 

From Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch to Willie Harris season-killing "bargains"......It ALL goes back to Reindorf. Everything.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Come on, LDF, Knnny is not a good GM, but even HE probably was pushing for more help. There was no money to spend, plain and simple.  Even the Everett/Alomar deals in July, Sox only spend a few 100K, preferring instead to give up the farm, literally...........REINDORF, in all his empty promise glory, f***ED UP --  tried to win at the CHEAPEST possible price and it BACKFIRED big-time. Sox should have won that division by 5-10 games even they make the right moves when Minny was down and out for a while.....Damn, just thinking about what could have been makes my skin crawl.

 

I am not talking about getting Kip Wells or Randy Johnson.    Just a decent #5 and a decent long reliver. By May, everyone was sounding alarms re:  Wright, White and Koch and yet they were allowed to BURY the team.    JR wasn't about to spend an extra mill or three on good players.....

 

I don't know about you, but if it's between making the playoffs and getting your fans back to the park but giving up Arnie Munoz or Feliz Diaz......and keeping them and fizzling out like we did.....I'll take the former.    These chances don't come often.

 

From Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch to Willie Harris season-killing "bargains"......It ALL goes back to Reindorf.  Everything.

Agreed. They didnt want to pay Foulke so they let him go and didn't adequately replace him. Flash was a stopgap and not half the player "Foulke you" is. Now we have no closer save for a guy who everyone calls "Botch".

 

Save for Marte our Pen is full of BS ( Blown Saves or Bull s*** take your pick ).

[BrandoFan]

I'll take Magglio over roid boy any time of day on any day of the week.  Maggs is 3 times the player that needle nose Bonds is and 10 times the man. 

 

Could Bonds put up those numbers of his without the juice?  I think not.

Dude....what are you talking about?

 

It doesn't matter that Shamy and Barry were on the juice; their "value" to their teams didn't suffer because of that. They are/were superstars back in 1998-2001 -- were putting up great numbers on the field and getting fans into park/selling jerseys like crazy. And yet, neither would get as much as they got from a small-market team like the Sox.

 

Maggs would have to put up Bonds' numbers if he wants to get what he is looking for from the money-tight White Sox. Let him go to Dodgers or Yankees for all I care.

[LDF]

negative, and i disagree with you on the trades part. kw thought of, created the scene, and made the trades. jr does not micro manage and maybe he should when it concerning kw.

 

last yr, look at it realisticly. kc was the team most of the yr. they were lucky and started out hot. then they fizzled out.

 

had kw made a little more of a smarter trade that really helped, i would almost say that jr would go out and get that extra player that will keep or get us there.

 

you need a core of young studs to build around and until then you do the best to win.

 

we need a real 2b and a cf and i dare someone to tell me that we don't need a #2/3 pitcher b/c shoe is not the man.

[LDF]

I think that's a symptom of where he plays.  For the most part nobody outside Chicago knows anything about the White Sox so I can see how that'd be a problem but Maggs doesn't seem to me to be the type of player that really relishes the spotlight anyway.  I could very well be wrong but that's just how I read it.

big frank had that spot light and that shot your theory apart.

[LDF]

Agreed.  They didnt want to pay Foulke so they let him go and didn't adequately replace him.  Flash was a stopgap and not half the player "Foulke you" is.  Now we have no closer save for a guy who everyone calls "Botch". 

 

Save for Marte our Pen is full of BS ( Blown Saves or Bull s*** take your pick ).

foulke has pissed off kw and said something in the press about it. that is 1 of the reason what he was trade bait.

 

another is marte, i like him, but i am not sold on him 100%. i don't know which one shows up.

[BrandoFan]

negative, and i disagree with you on the trades part. kw thought of, created the scene, and made the trades. jr does not micro manage and maybe he should when it concerning kw.

 

How can you believe ANYTHING JR says re: micro-managing? Whay has he ever done to earn your trust?

 

Secondly.....there was NO money to spend because JR set a budget and refused to deviate from it NO MATTER how much Sox neeeded. Period.

 

Don't speculate on what might have been done had a golden oppuritunity presented itself. Look at what WASN'T done and draw conclusions.

[BrandoFan]

we need a real 2b and a cf and i dare someone to tell me that we don't need a #2/3 pitcher b/c shoe is not the man.

 

Agree on 2B. Willie would have made a great pinch-runner today in the 9th. Right now Roberts has gotten to a slow start, I am not sure as to Hairston's status, but KW should have more than enough to make that deal.

 

CF? I am ok with Rowand/Perez combo for now. Ideally, you'd want to upgrade at every position, but it's not a high priority.

 

Pitching........I would love for Sox to go after Randy Johnson before the deadline. Throw Arizona good prospects and he won't cost more than 4-5 Mill for the final 2 months of the season. Unit-Elo-Buerhle is something that could very well get you the WS. Then try to get Urbina from Detroit -- another 1-2 Mill at the most.

 

Sox are literally 6-7 Mill away from being a true World Series threat.

[LDF]

How can you believe ANYTHING JR says re: micro-managing? Whay has he ever done to earn your trust?

 

Secondly.....there was NO money to spend because JR set a budget and refused to deviate from it NO MATTER how much Sox neeeded. Period.

 

Don't speculate on what might have been done had a golden oppuritunity presented itself. Look at what WASN'T done and draw conclusions.

i will not go with #1 and answer all the others.

 

on #2, his reasoning is and alway has been, he will not beat out the northside in pr, but is his team ready to have that break out yr that the next step will be the championship, if not is the team is a 1/2 wonder and may not rebound the following year, he if he spends the money, if not, then don't fall for the ploy. its like gambling with him, he will make a move when he has all the winning part there to get the winning hand. then he will spend money. i know that.

 

ref to #3, you do the same thing and just are guilty of what you are accusing me of. on paper kw went out to improve, and the results of those trade should tell you where the blame falls on. stick to the facts that you are telling me i am not. lets not speculate.

[LDF]

Agree on 2B. Willie would have made a great pinch-runner today in the 9th. Right now Roberts has gotten to a slow start, I am not sure as to Hairston's status, but KW should have more than enough to make that deal.

 

CF? I am ok with Rowand/Perez combo for now. Ideally, you'd want to upgrade at every position, but it's not a high priority.

 

Pitching........I would love for Sox to go after Randy Johnson before the deadline. Throw Arizona good prospects and he won't cost more than 4-5 Mill for the final 2 months of the season. Unit-Elo-Buerhle is something that could very well get you the WS.    Then try to get Urbina from Detroit -- another 1-2 Mill at the most.

 

Sox are literally 6-7 Mill away from being a true World Series threat.

i like harris and rowand game, but let face the facts, i don't think they have the talent to be an everyday player.

 

timo being thrown into the equation adds a little something there. pitching, i don't know much of what happen and didn't happen in the offseason, so i can't answer that part.

[BrandoFan]

i will not go with #1 and answer all the others.

 

on #2, his reasoning is and alway has been, he will not beat out the northside in pr, but is his team ready to have that break out yr that the next step will be the championship, if not is the team is a 1/2 wonder and may not rebound the following year, he if he spends the money, if not, then don't fall for the ploy. its like gambling with him, he will make a move when he has all the winning part there to get the winning hand. then he will spend money. i know that.

 

ref to #3, you do the same thing and just are guilty of what you are accusing me of. on paper kw went out to improve, and the results of those trade should tell you where the blame falls on. stick to the facts that you are telling me i am not. lets not speculate.

KW is JR's puppet, even more so than other GMs are their owners' puppets when it comes to sticking to a set budget. It's a reality.

 

It's been 86 years, LDF. And with the stupid-ass, financially "safe" philosophy you've just described, it will be another 86 years. No wonder Sox lost a third of its fan-base in the last 20 years.

 

I don't speculate when I state FACTS -- 2003 payroll was OBSCENELY low all things considered. JR can spin it any way he pleases. The entire friggin' season was lost because of it. Same old song and dance. Cheapness costs you BIG-TIME, especially when you don't have a great GM running the team. Ironically, it's bad for business, too. Imagine that.

 

The smart thing would have been to spend 2-3 Mill more on much needed 5th starter and Rick White's replacement. Sox most likely make playoffs. Extra money is made, which allows Sox to retain one of the FA we lost and be a better team this year, with much more eager ticket-holders and more media attention.

 

Who knows, had the Sox won, maybe Minnesota wouldn't have even bothered bringing Shane Stewart back because they wouldn't think they had much chance this year. Same with KC and Juan Gone.......Division could be a cake walk right now -- just as it was for the Indians in the 90's.

[SouthSide2004]

I agree that the Sox need to spend more money on the team if they want more fans to come to the park. But going out and spending wildly isn't going to gurantee we make the playoffs, just look at the Rangers and Mets. Kenny has already spent well over the team's budget of $58 million, showing that Jerry is willing to spend extra money when needed. Look at what the attendence was for last year (not good) and now look at what our payroll is for this year (5th in the AL, 1st in AL Central). You can't expect him to just go out and increase the payroll by $20 million when attendence is low and there's no gurantee to make the playoffs. If we are in the playoff race close to the deadline, Jerry will spend the extra money to improve the team. I wish he would spend the money before the season begins, but until attendence consistently improves, it's not going to happen. Making the playoffs this year would allow the payroll for 2005 to increase, and along with shedding the contracts of Valentin and Koch, allow the Sox to go out and get the players we need to consistently win.

[BrandoFan]

You can't expect him to just go out and increase the payroll by $20 million when attendence is low

 

Given how embarassinly low it was last year (50 Mill in a historical year while the division was up for grabs? that is as far from "commitment to winning" as it gets for big market teams....the damn league average is 70 Mill), increasing it 20 Mill is not that big of a stretch.

 

and there's no gurantee to make the playoffs

.

 

2002-2004 ALC is the weakest division since the inception of, well, divisions. If you're looking for 100% guarantees, then go into the soap-making business. ALC is as close to "guaranteed" as it comes in baseball. Try competing in the ALE or NLC and you'll see the difference.

 

 

If we are in the playoff race close to the deadline, Jerry will spend the extra money to improve the team

.

 

As last year showed, it might be TOO LATE. Remember, if they are in 1st place, KC and Twins won't stand pat and will be very active at the deadline, too -- and I'll take their GM's over KW any day of the week. Last year, moves HAD to be made in May as Koch, White, Rowand, Borchard and Wright were killing the team. Instead, the help arrived July and August. In the end, this delay was the difference between making postseason and not.

 

I wish he would spend the money before the season begins, but until attendence consistently improves, it's not going to happen

 

He'll reap what he has sown. If this s*** goes on for another 5-7 years, you couldn't pay alienated fans enough to come to the park. JR will lose the battle -- as he's been losing it for two decades now. Cubs are on the rise, threatening to cement its stranglehold on the city.....and this jerkwad is counting pennies.

[LDF]

KW is JR's puppet, even more so than other GMs are their owners' puppets when it comes to sticking to a set budget.    It's a reality.

 

It's been 86 years, LDF. And with the stupid-ass, "safe" philosophy you've just described, it will be another 86 years.  No wonder Sox lost a third of its fan-base in the last 20 years.

 

I don't speculate when I state FACTS -- 2003 payroll was OBSCENELY low all things considered.  JR can spin it any way he pleases.  The entire friggin' season was lost because of it. Same old song and dance.    Cheapness costs you BIG-TIME, especially when you don't have a great GM running the team.    Ironically, it's bad for business, too.  Imagine that.

 

The smart thing would have been to spend 2-3 Mill more on much needed 5th starter and Rick White's replacement.    Sox most likely make playoffs.    Extra money is made, which allows Sox to retain one of the FA we lost and be a better team this year, with much more eager ticket-holders and more media attention.

 

Who knows, had the Sox won, maybe Minnesota wouldn't have even bothered bringing Shane Stewart back because they wouldn't think they had much chance this year.    Same with KC and Juan Gone.......Division could be a cake walk right now -- just as it was for the Indians in the 90's.

man i just remembered how much of an asshole you are when someone doesn't agree with you.

 

with your assine ramblings about what will happen if jr/kw would have done this or that. that is was i was referring to too. state the facts and do not speculate of what will happen if this situation developed. almost the same words you told me, you should live by.

 

 

you stating that the best move would have been this or that and the results would have this............. it is soooo amazing that you can actually predict what the futures holds according to you simple thoughts.

[YASNY]

As much as I hate to say it, I can't argue with Brando on the Maggs issue. Since JR "throws around nickels like they're manhole covers" (I love that Ditka quote!) we cannot afford to have 25% of our payroll tied up in one man.

[LDF]

As much as I hate to say it, I can't argue with Brando on the Maggs issue.  Since JR "throws around nickels like they're manhole covers" (I love that Ditka quote!) we cannot afford to have 25% of our payroll tied up in one man.

and do you think he is worth vlad's money???

[rafacosta]

NEW YORK — According to a source in the White Sox organization, the first obstacle that needs to be cleared in the current negotiations to sign Magglio Ordonez to a long-term contract is the length of the deal.

The Sox want to give Ordonez a four-year deal worth close to the $14 million per season he wants, but Ordonez is seeking a five-year deal that isn't as backloaded as the Sox's current offer.

 

Ordonez told The Daily Southtown on Friday that a deal was "close," and both sides were "trying really hard" to finalize it. Ordonez also said he's not the type of player who will stop talking contract with the team until the end of the season because it's too big of a distraction. Of course, he's letting his representatives do most of the talking.

 

This is from the Daily Southtown.

 

I hope he continues to be a White Sox, no matter what.

 

If he goes, this team will lose a lot of fans on the stadium.

[BrandoFan]

As much as I hate to say it, I can't argue with Brando on the Maggs issue.  Since JR "throws around nickels like they're manhole covers" (I love that Ditka quote!) we cannot afford to have 25% of our payroll tied up in one man.

If you don't like the % look at it this way:

 

Bonds makes 20 while Giants payroll is 85-90 Mill. That means they have 65-70 Mill to spend on supporting crew.

 

Say Magglio does get a 5/75 deal he wants.....With SanFran's excellent attendance and their (relatively) magnanimous owner, they could lose 100 games this year and they STILL draw 3.5 Mill in 2005, so Bonds' salary will never be a big burden as future payrolls will be high.

 

And Bonds, mind you, is twice the player (talking on- and off-the field value here) Maggs is, and is only signed for, what, 1 year. So if he craps out in 2004 SanFran won't pay anywhere near 20 Mill in upcoming years and will spend that cash on somebody else if need be. With Magglio, you could get a 1000 OPS season as easily as a 900 one. Gone are the days when 900 OPS (his career is 890) RF'ers with limited marketability are getting 5/75 -- even King Vlad didn't get that from a team with a 100 Mill payroll (Angels).

 

So it's not inconceivable for Magglio to be making 15 Mill a year while the Sox payroll is 50 -- hell even if it's 70, it's still no good, and there is no guarantee JR will spend 70 Mill year in and out -- he has never once done it.

 

It's not even a question of Magglio's worth (12-13 Mill), but rather can - no, should - the WHITE SOX pay him up.........If Frank has an MVP year and demands a 3 year/42 Mill contract, I will say the same thing.

[BrandoFan]

If he goes, this team will lose a lot of fans on the stadium.

 

What fans?

 

Sox barely drew 1.9 Mill with all of the awesome promotions when the team won 95 games -- and did it in exciting fashion. Nobody cared other than the die-hards and you can't fill out a stadium only with them.

 

It's clear that unless a team is winning consistently, you won't see Sox fans come out on regular basis, Magglio or not.

 

IMO, the team will be better off without Magglio's 70/75 Mill contract just as it will be betteer off without Lee's 8 Mill (in 2005), without Valentin's 5, without Kock's 6.3, Konerko's 8.5, etc, etc.

 

Bring on Sweeney for 1.5 Mill over 4 years.