Do you think terrorists have low IQ's?

[JUGGERNAUT]

In the 90's some bad physics equations averted what would have been a death toll in the 10's of 1000's not to mention property damage. With no warning at all bombs exploded in the basement of one WTC. The intent was to cause one tower to fall into the other & thereby topple the 2nd. Estimated death toll was huge. But the terrorists got the math wrong, parked the vans in the wrong spots & the damage was minimized.

 

Of course we all know how successful Mc Veigh was in OK, & Bin Laden was in NYC.

But neither of these guys have even begun to exploit what is offered by technology today. It scares the s*** out of me when I think about it.

 

If you knows someone's address you can find out their GPS positioning & program a mini-missile for seek & destroy? Science-fiction? No. Take a visit to your local hobby store & you will see how much technology has changed in the RC air-borne world. Do you think Robot Wars is cool? Just imagine programming coordinates into an RC min helicopter & watch it fly with GPS tracking from pt A to pt B without you having to do a thing!

 

Now consider how easy it would be to rig such a device with an explosive (either plastic or home grown) & detonate by the vibration of a beeper. This is not science-fiction any more. These are things you can build at home. If you can do this on a budget of say $500.00 what do you think a smart tech savy terrorist can do on a budget 1000 times that size?

 

It doesn't matter any more who's elected there is no one who can safeguard the country from all attacks. We've heard the stories of servicemen themselves being

terrorists. They can infiltrate any where. Since there group association is rooted in religion they can recruit any where. I'm sure you've heard the stories about the Moonies over the years. Well I'm sure Bin Ladens got some expert psychos in the field of cult-washing as well.

 

That's why when you add it all up the best strategy is an offensive one. There is no better way to disrupt their plans then to make it uncomfortable for them. Keep them moving. On top of that as much as it distates most Americans profiling is the best way to secure civil liberties for the majority of Americans & target suspicious individuals. Taking a page out of the KGB if America had simply instituted a policy of profiling all individuals with Saudi passports 9/11 would have been prevented. The common denominator in most terrorist attacks in the G7 nations by militant Muslims is that the MAJORITY in the group have Saudi passports.

 

For profiling to be effective it must not be publicly known. This is why the KGB was so effective for so many years in maintaining order & control in the USSR. Essentially America would have to pass legislation allowing the NSA to work with the CIA & FBI to profile foreigners. Period. No specifics beyond that. Yes it does place a LOT of power in their hands, but we are combating very powerful forces.

 

Without question if this profiling directive was in place prior to 9/11 that particular attack would never have occured. The pilots would have been under surveilance as soon as they entered the country. Eventually it would be discovered that they signed up for flying lessons & at that time it would have been discovered that they had been in the country past their visa limitations.

 

What the investigation proofs is that some diligent people in the FBI & CIA picked up on these guys in Florida & elsewhere. But their hands were tied both legally & adminstratively to act. A legislative profiling directive would have changed that.

 

As I see access to the USA for tourists from suspect nations should be severely restricted. For each privledge they seek beyond the restrictions they should be required to undergoe a background check. The Patriot Act is just an overbearing

mandate on the American people as an over-reaction of a dumbfounded legislature.

The attack on 9/11 was committed by foreigners & not American citizens. Until proven otherwise it should be them & not us who face the hardships as a result of the attack.

 

You probably can not stop a McVeigh in the future. Once a citizen chooses to break the law it becomes very difficult to prevent him from reaking havoc. They've created a reasonable background while living here so it's nearly impossible to weed them out before hand. But foreigners are a different matter altogether. If they want to take flying lessons, truck lessons, or anything else the government should know about it & check them out first. No exceptions. If that ever passes then I'll feel a LOT more safer than I do today.

[FlaSoxxJim]

That's why when you add it all up the best strategy is an offensive one. There is no better way to disrupt their plans then to make it uncomfortable for them. Keep them moving. On top of that as much as it distates most Americans profiling is the best way to secure civil liberties for the majority of Americans & target suspicious individuals.

 

An offensive strategy is the best strategy for what? For pushing everyone else in the world who thinks America is an arrogant, imperialistic country to figure out how to build and use one of those remote-controlled robo-bombs you're talking about?

 

Ad if "securing civil liberties for the majority of Americans" is the goal, I'd say it falls woefully short. Suggesting that America would be a BETTER place if we started conducting secret police activities like the KGB is also unsettling. Though possibly effective, their fear- and suspicion-based methods for "maintaining order and control" are not something I would ever hope to see here, and not something I would stick around for.

 

Is this stuff out of a page of the PNAC manual? It's a scary 'Brave New World' you have in mind.

[BrandoFan]

Is this stuff out of a page of the PNAC manual? It's a scary 'Brave New World' you have in mind

 

My very first question to Jaugs had "PNAC II" in it.

 

Don't waste time.

[Flash Tizzle]

In the 90's some bad physics equations averted what would have been a death toll in the 10's of 1000's not to mention property damage.  With no warning at all bombs exploded in the basement of one WTC.  The intent was to cause one tower to fall into the other & thereby topple the 2nd.   Estimated death toll was huge.  But the terrorists got the math wrong, parked the vans in the wrong spots & the damage was minimized.

 

Having never met a terrorist, I can't argue their educational level. IIRC, several of the 19 hijackers were educated in distinguished schools throughout Europe. But we're giving these hijackers too much credit as too assume they used physics to try and find vunerable points below the WTC. Hell, give me a blue print of the towers and I could of guessed which areas of the building would be ideal for a collapse. I say "guessed" because I never would of believed that a simple truck-bomb could take down a 1,000 + foot tower with hundreds of concrete support columns. Bin Laden, a man who had an understanding of basic engineering, knew that a plane full of jet fuel would soften the steel truss columns and collapse the floors above the crash. If terrorist were intent on studying the technological developments of today then i agree Jug, the terror they could release on the world could be unimaginable.

 

That's why when you add it all up the best strategy is an offensive one

Then how about invading Saudi Arabia? Haven't money trails from all 19 terrorists been tracked back to affiliates of the Royal Family? Not to mention nearly all hijackers lived within Saudi Arabia...

 

 

On top of that as much as it distates most Americans profiling is the best way to secure civil liberties for the majority of Americans & target suspicious individuals

 

Terrorists will begin to work around this belief. By recruiting muslim loyalists who might not fit the "typical Arab profile" they could avert suspicion. Though selective searces could be more effecient to air travel. Scanning an old lady for explosives in an airport is ridiculous and a waste of time.

 

The attack on 9/11 was committed by foreigners & not American citizens.   Until proven otherwise it should be them & not us who face the hardships as a result of the attack.

 

But we can't use the belief of terrorists only arriving out of the united states because Kazinski (?) and McVeigh both were Americans terrorists. Although conspiracy theorists believe McVeigh's accomplice Terry Nichols met with Iraqi intelligence agents in the Philippines, I will just assume the OK bombimg was the work of the two men alone.

 

If they want to take flying lessons, truck lessons, or anything else the government should know about it & check them out first.  No exceptions.   If that ever passes then I'll feel a LOT more safer than I do today.

 

Wouldn't this go against the founding principles of our nation? Majority of men from muslim descent that move here from the Middle East are not intent on killing Americans. Though I do understand the argument that when America allows every person to enter this country with only indentification and a visa its possible terrorists are exploiting our freedoms. If another terrorist attack occurs on par with 9/11 the American view on foreigners will change dramatically.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Again it won't stop home grown terrorists. You simply can't do that & insure both privacy & civil liberties for the majority of Americans. The only way to stop home grown terrorists is to essentially give the FBI KGB like powers & I refuse to do that.

That price for safety & security is simply too high a cost.

 

But it would severely hamper the efforts of terrorists that enter this country carrying visas. What I am about to tell you is no lie. When I was in school we laughed about it. I never imagined they might attack the USA but now it's pretty weird thinking about.

When I went to school at a prominent engineering school I had classmates from the middle east that proclaimed they were terrorists & going to school in the US to learn how to more effectively wage war against Israel. I would say there were about 1/2 a dozen I knew in my classes. I don't know whatever happened to them but I do know they were pretty serious in their convictions. Now I believe they never should have been admitted into the school without a thorough background check on themselves & their families abroad.

 

The arguments against an offensive strategy are too weak & too idealic. There is no diplomatic solution with terrorists. That seek to kill you for what you believe in. I've given you the latest example of this & I can find 1000's more. You either cave in to their demands or they will sacrifice their lives to harm you. I read recent articles particularly from Saudia Arabia that Mc World is invading their turf & they are not happy about it. Their are protests in the street against shows like "Big Brother" reaching homes via satellite (You just have to love News Corp's Sky TV). Likewise Mc Donalds is an ever influential presence in the region. In other words as long as you are going to support the spread of capitalism in their regions the hate they feel for you will intensify. We are a world unified in the global economy so nothing is going to deter the spread of Mc World. Because of this we must be realistic in our efforts to fight terrorism.

 

The rest of this debate as I see it is how to effectively bring about a national id system that would be very difficult for a terrorist to forge but at the same time insure rights of privacy & civil liberties for citizens. The goal should be to make it nearly impossible for a terrorist to commit a crime in the US w/out some help coming from the citizenry. If they get that kind of help, then that is the price we must pay for our Republic. We don't want the inception of thought police coming about & I'm afraid that's the direction wide sweeping Patriot Act's are leaning in.

[Texsox]

I'm confused by your question(s)

 

Are terrorists stupid? Probably not. Research has found that for some reason high IQ people tend to become more dogmatic and vulnerable to terrorist causes.

 

Are they "behind" technology? Are they developing technology? Inventing new stuff, I doubt it.

 

Can they afford to pay scientists to create things for them? Yes. One of the scarier by products of breaking up the USSR was their scientists had no income, no budgets for research. Yet they had skills that could earn them a nice salary for a Bin Laden.