Soxy Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I'm doing my final ethics paper on Jesus and forgiveness, and I'd be interesting to see what you all think--be insightful and you might get quoted in the paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I'm niether Christian, nor remotely ethical , so I repectfully submitted a (null) vote to your poll....... If quoted I'd like to use my real name, Haywood Jablome, and not my internet idetintity of T. Cheat, used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted April 19, 2004 Author Share Posted April 19, 2004 Intriguing Mr. Jablome! I will make sure to spell your name correctly in the paper and citation. Thank you muchly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I think eventually they should be able to forgive but it shouldn't happen instantly. They hav a rite to grieve and be angry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 To those who would say yes let me ask you what your reaction would be if some vindictive person killed your entire family in front of you for no reason whatsoever. If you can forgive someone who does something like that then you are a better person than me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 The question is very specific: do Christians have a moral and/or ethical obligation to forgive those who do them harm and there is only answer: yes. The reason there is only one answer is that the record of what Jesus taught is explicitly clear on this. To answer any other way is to substitute one's own standards for the teachings of Christ. Jesus not only taught that, Jesus lived that dying on the cross: Forgive them. But then again Jesus taught that repeatedly and it is repeated throughout the New Testament. It is the basic of the Lord's Prayer: forgive our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. It is the heart of the Sermon on the Mount. There is no other ethical option or moral option for someone who claims to be a Christian. This is not a matter of theological difference. The Gospel and the whole of the New Testament repeatedly stress the forgiveness that must be given to those who one harm. That is why the Pope (and I am not Catholic) went to personally forgive the man who tried to assassinate him. But again, Jesus on the cross says it all. Nuke, your question should be have you read the Scriptures and will you live by them or just give lip service to the call of Christ. If the commandments of Christ do not govern us in the most extreme of circumstances then they do not govern us at all. One cannot pick and choose when Christ's teachings apply, or that they only apply in minor or lesser circumstances and we can choose when they do not. For the record, murder has touched my family and friends. And when I was run down by a car, as a pedestrian, having had just enough time to shove my son out of the path of the car, I made a point to never learn the name of the driver so I would not be able to be angry and focus anger at the driver during that year of being unable to walk. The choice was not mine. Jesus on the cross leaves us no other choice. Does anyone live that out perfectly? No. That is why we continually pray the Lord's Prayer. That is why we are reminded that if we have something against another we must go and forgive and then come back to the Communion Table. That is why James says if we say we live in the light and yet have hostility and hate in our hearts we are in darkness still. And why Paul and Peter showed repeatedly the grace of forgiving those who did them harm. Why Jesus said what Jesus said the entire night of the betrayal. Etc. Etc. Etc. I sure don't live it perfectly. I struggle with that a lot, a lot. It took me the longest time to work this through with my ex wife for the things that she did. And sometimes with (former) friends or differences within the family, it can be a long haul to reach the point of forgivness. But my inability to live it out perfectly does not eliminate the ethical and moral imperitive I have to do it. I cry for grace so that I might have grace and show grace, that I might live grace and offer grace. When in my vocation I share the call of Christ with others it is always with the inner knowledge that I am the chief of sinners and transgressors and am called ever more to conform my life to the call of Christ. I answer this question with a firm and unequivocal yes keenly aware of my own failings. Thus one turns to Christ all the more. Forgive my sins as I forgive those who have sinned against me. Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. There are very few issues that are so totally clear in the teachings of Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 cwsox ... I feel the same way. However, I knew you'd express it so much more eloquently than I could ever begin to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 It's the standard we are striving for, and precious few reach. I do not believe I could reach a level of total forgiveness in the situation that Nuke gave. It is the basic of the Lord's Prayer: forgive our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. When I finally "got" that part of the Lord's Prayer, I realized how difficult it is to be Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 The choice is pretty clear. Forgive and forget or go to hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 The choice is pretty clear. Forgive and forget or go to hell. If sum1 has been raped or brutally attacked etc. it's very hard for them to do just that, forgive and forget. They are still allowed to be angry but they should not look for revenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 If sum1 has been raped or brutally attacked etc. it's bery hard for them to do just that, forgive and forget. They are still allowed to be angry but they should not look for revenge. CW is right. Biblically there is zero gray area on this one. Can't say that it is easy or that I am able to do it, but IIRC there is a bible verse that saids something to the affect of Don't let the sun set while still angry with someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I can forgive with the best of 'em, but my problem is with forgetting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 The choice is pretty clear. Forgive and forget or go to hell. Obviously I am not a Christian, but, I do have a question. Are you saying that whatever the circumstances, if you kill someone you will go to Hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Obviously I am not a Christian, but, I do have a question. Are you saying that whatever the circumstances, if you kill someone you will go to Hell? Depends on whether you have a connection to God. There are a lot of "Chiristians" who aren't going to heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Depends on whether you have a connection to God. There are a lot of "Chiristians" who aren't going to heaven. I will never forgive you for that last comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I can forgive with the best of 'em, but my problem is with forgetting... exactly "forget" is not in the Bible - we are called to forgive but God does not ask what is impossible, which is to forget a grievous harm- it is possible to remember and yet forgive we as Christians do that when ever we celebrate Communion/Eucharist - we are remembering the death of Christ yet celebrating forgiveness: "this is my body/my blood given for you for the forgiveness of sins" and we sing Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world - in remembering we forgive as we are forgiven as Christ forgave those who put Christ on the cross - only God could take an act of raw violence (against God's own self in Jesus) and turn it into a sacrament of forgiveness - and that is such a powerful message right there there are certain things we will never forget - but we can forgve and let go of the anger, bitterness, and hate and find ourselves healed in the act of forgiving - there are people to forgive that one may never trust again - Jesus didn't call us to be stupid - but to be innocent as doves and wise as serpents (interesting analogies there, Jesus...) it is possible to forgive while someone who harms you serves a criminal sentence for doing you harm - the Pope forgave his potential assassin in jail - the guy who blasted my cousin's head off is in jail - yet for violence, Jesus is very explicit in the Sermon on the Mount. But this is not a thread on that. It is a thread on forgiveness. And in my own experience it is the healthiest thing one can do to move forward in my own life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 If sum1 has been raped or brutally attacked etc. it's very hard for them to do just that, forgive and forget. They are still allowed to be angry but they should not look for revenge. anger is a place where we often need to be for a time on the road to forgiveness - we just can't live there - it is also as human and natural as can be - so it is a place we will pass through - your caveat about what we are allowed to do while angry is well phrased Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 are we called to forgive those who clearly misinterpret, misquote and alter the gospel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 are we called to forgive those who clearly misinterpret, misquote and alter the gospel? Yes. And we even forgive you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Yes. And we even forgive you. cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Depends on whether you have a connection to God. There are a lot of "Chiristians" who aren't going to heaven. Does this mean a Christian serial killer can go to Heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Does this mean a Christian serial killer can go to Heaven? I can't see how a Christian could be a serial killer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I can't see how a Christian could be a serial killer How about a serial killer who "finds Jesus" while in prison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 How about a serial killer who "finds Jesus" while in prison? A change of lifestyle is an important indicator if someone has Christ in their heart or is just giving lip service to it. If the guy really did have the Holy Spirit come into his heart, then yes, he would be saved. A serial killer who keeps killing never was a Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 How about a serial killer who "finds Jesus" while in prison? The Bible tells us yes. It's an area that we have to have the faith that God forgives us our sins. It doesn't even have to be in prison. The killer may never have ben "caught" by anyone but God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.