israel4ever Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 If that comment came from anyone else it might bother me... But in reality, read the bible, decide for yourself. I understand that it came from the New Testament...it just seem exclusionary (and wrong) to me. What it basically says is, if I am a rapist, murderer, drug dealer, etc. but I "embrace" Jesus, I can go to Heaven...but, if I am a righteous, charitable, sincere, hard working Jew, I cannot!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I understand that it came from the New Testament...it just seem exclusionary (and wrong) to me. All faiths profess to be the one faith at the expense of the others. The concept is pretty universal, as far as I have seen. Granted I could very well be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I find that way of thinking VERY narrow minded. Who ever said God was open minded? Makes a lot of sense to me. He loves us all infinitely and desires for a relationship with all of us, which is why He gave us free choice, and why people continually reject or accept him. Yet, He makes the choice clear. Why would the crucifixtion even exsist if God had multiple ways to Him? What point does it serve otherwise? The son of God, Jesus, is the only way to salvation. I don't know why people get so ego-centric about God. Ultimately it is about Him. He wants everything in history and creation to know HE is AWESOME. If you choose to or not to accept Him, he's still awesome. The most boring arguement I've ever heard is "oh, that's so narrow minded". Read the Gospels, would be my suggestion. John 14: I am the way and the truth and the life, no one gets to the father, except through me. pretty narrow minded, sure, but that's God, not southsider saying that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Yeah what PA said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 All faiths profess to be the one faith at the expense of the others. The concept is pretty universal, as far as I have seen. Granted I could very well be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time I can really only speak about Judaism; we believe in, and pray to One G-d. The difference is that Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah, he has come and will return, whereas Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come. Another MAJOR difference is, to the best of my knowledge, Judaism is the only "major" religion whose practitioners have NEVER sought to convert "nonbelievers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I can really only speak about Judaism; we believe in, and pray to One G-d. The difference is that Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah, he has come and will return, whereas Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come. Another MAJOR difference is, to the best of my knowledge, Judaism is the only "major" religion whose practitioners have NEVER sought to convert "nonbelievers". mostly because Joshua was leading the "practioners" around exterminating the prospective converts... but whatev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 You still have Christians trying to convert non-Christians, in 2004!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 You still have Christians trying to convert non-Christians, in 2004!!! "Go forth and make followers of all men..." Jesus own words. We are doing what he told us to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 "Go forth and make followers of all men..." Jesus own words. We are doing what he told us to do. what southsider said... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 "Go forth and make followers of all men..." Jesus own words. We are doing what he told us to do. Technically, wouldn't it be more like 'we are doing what someone said He said to do?' Sorry, levity seems to be needed around here this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Technically, wouldn't it be more like 'we are doing what someone said He said to do?' Sorry, levity seems to be needed around here this morning. :finger Well technically Christians believe the Bible was devinely inspired directly by God, and those are the words of Jesus. I'll take your levity and raise you a :finger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 "Go forth and make followers of all men..." Jesus own words. We are doing what he told us to do. How about the concept of "live and let live"? How about the concept of "if G-d wanted me to be Christian, I would have been born Christian."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 :finger Well technically Christians believe the Bible was devinely inspired directly by God, and those are the words of Jesus. I'll take your levity and raise you a :finger I'll see that :finger and raise you a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 How about the concept of "live and let live"? How about the concept of "if G-d wanted me to be Christian, I would have been born Christian."? I musta missed that book of the bible Christians are tought tolerance for other people, but you are to try to save their souls. Granted the whole tolerance thing, has been kinda forgotten at times during history (hello inquistion), but that is how it is supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I'll see that :finger and raise you a Gutsy call, I would have pulled out a :banghead :headshake But that is just how I roll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 (hello inquistion) I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Gutsy call, I would have pulled out a :banghead :headshake But that is just how I roll After the Sens game last night, that had to come out some time today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition! I can never say that word without thinking of the Mel Brooks movie... Yeah, yeah, I know, I am going to hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 You still have Christians trying to convert non-Christians, in 2004!!! honestly that's an interesting point, and even more interesting when you see people converting to judaism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 honestly that's an interesting point, and even more interesting when you see people converting to judaism People DO convert to Judaism, but htey do so cuz they WANT to, not because they are being coerced to do so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I don't know why people get so ego-centric about God. Ultimately it is about Him. He wants everything in history and creation to know HE is AWESOME. If you choose to or not to accept Him, he's still awesome. The most boring arguement I've ever heard is "oh, that's so narrow minded". Narrow minded may not be the right word. More like utterly, fatally flawed and homocentric. For an omnipotent Divine Agent to have as Its ultimate goal making sure Its sentient organic creations 'know he is awesome' (subtext: OR ELSE!) is the worst example of ascribing ugly human character traits (vanity, pettiness) to a caricature of a Divinity. If a person doesn't fawn and adore the Divine Agent and offer all works up to Hs Glory, the Divinity is going to get Its widdle feelings hurt and that person has effectively blown it big time in the whole eternal salvation deal – talk about holding a grudge. I very sincerely ask you, PA, get back to me on this when you adopt a construct for God that is actually worthy of the admittedly heady concepts of divinity, omnipotence, infinite mercy, etc. The version you and a lot of folks throw around is of a petty, self-centered child who insists that humanity dote on him or there'll be Hell to pay. Yet strangely, this wind-up cartoon of a God holds sway in so many lives. I always liked Bono's retort to all the Evangelists in search of their almighty Jezo-Bucks, "Well my God isn't short of cash, Mister...". In that same vein, my God isn't so petty that He's going to throw a righteous tantrum and cast me into the eternal flames if I concentrate on making this world a better place in the here and now instead of stroking his apparently very delicate ego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I very sincerely ask you, PA, get back to me on this when you adopt a construct for God that is actually worthy of the admittedly heady concepts of divinity, omnipotence, infinite mercy, etc. The version you and a lot of folks throw around is of a petty, self-centered child who insists that humanity dote on him or there'll be Hell to pay. Yet strangely, this wind-up cartoon of a God holds sway in so many lives. Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. Joshua 24:19 Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD . He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. James 4 4You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely?[1] 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Here's a great example of coming to salvation: 1 Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me. 4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. 5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. 6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts [1] ; you teach [2] me wisdom in the inmost place. 7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. 8 Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice. 9 Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity. 10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me. 13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. 14 Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of your righteousness. 15 O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. 16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. 17 The sacrifices of God are [3] a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. Jim, "God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." It doesn't surprise me that you don't get it. You probably never will, and I'm sorry for that. please don't tell me that I need to adopt a new vision of who I believe God is because of your inability to understand where I stand in my faith. 1 Corinthians "18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I can never say that word without thinking of the Mel Brooks movie... Yeah, yeah, I know, I am going to hell. Same with me...damn that is a funny ass movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I'll see that :finger and raise you a That is the BEST Fan... being one of the baggers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 It doesn't surprise me that you don't get it. You probably never will, and I'm sorry for that. please don't tell me that I need to adopt a new vision of who I believe God is because of your inability to understand where I stand in my faith. 1 Corinthians "18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."" My intent obviously was not personal attack on you or your beliefs. But absolutely yes - I confess a complete inability to understand where you stand in your faith, or how you can stand there for that matter. And I appreciate your sorrow over my commitment to the material world over the hereafter. I'll add you to the handful of Born Again friends who have told me how Jesus placed me in their hearts and regularly inquire as to whether I have gotten around to accepting Him as my lord and savior. They are a persistent lot. I'll give them that. All those angry OT chestnuts you posted are great. But they were written by flawed beings (ie, human) that ascribed very human attributes of jealousy and vengeance to an unseen God because they needed to make sense of their world. Ancient civilizations, living precariously at the fringes of a harsh desert are going to have a rough time of it. Drought and famine, plague, war, etc., are to be expected and of course these frequently occurred. But humans need reasons for their suffering, and what better reason than a pissed off God? Regularly happening upon the ruins of abandoned villages and cities, along with convenient and only recently explained physical phenomena like pillars of salt and chunks of brimstone on the banks of the dead sea, Bible authors had lots of inspiration for the Babels and Soddoms and Gemorrahs they wrote about. Back in the days of multi-theism, folks needed entire stables of gods to explain away the seasons, the movements of the sun, the weather, disease and death, etc. Slowly, great thinkers began to offer plausible non-divine explanations for all these physical phenomena, and we have been continually refining these explanations ever since. We still can't wrap our brains around things like apparent evil, death, our fate after death, etc., so we've still got to keep a subset of gods and devils around for good measure. None of that is to say I don't really like that Corinthians verse, because I do. I've actually used it in lectures as a warning to students to never feel too comfortable about what we think we know of the living world. The beautiful intricacy of organic existence at all levels of organization often "destroys the wisdom of the wise and "frustrates the intelligence of the intelligent." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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