Forgive, forget, or none of the above

[sox4lifeinPA]

My intent obviously was not personal attack on you or your beliefs.  But absolutely yes - I confess a complete inability to understand where you stand in your faith, or how you can stand there for that matter.  And I appreciate your sorrow over my commitment to the material world over the hereafter.  I'll add you to the handful of Born Again friends who have told me how Jesus placed me in their hearts and regularly inquire as to whether I have gotten around to accepting Him as my lord and savior.  They are a persistent lot. I'll give them that.

 

All those angry OT chestnuts you posted are great.  But they were written by flawed beings (ie, human) that ascribed very human attributes of jealousy and vengeance to an unseen God because they needed to make sense of their world.  Ancient civilizations, living precariously at the fringes of a harsh desert are going to have a rough time of it.  Drought and famine, plague, war, etc., are to be expected and of course these frequently occurred.  But humans need reasons for their suffering, and what better reason than a pissed off God?  Regularly happening upon the ruins of abandoned villages and cities, along with convenient and only recently explained physical phenomena like pillars of salt and chunks of brimstone on the banks of the dead sea, Bible authors had lots of inspiration for the Babels and Soddoms and Gemorrahs they wrote about.

 

Back in the days of multi-theism, folks needed entire stables of gods to explain away the seasons, the movements of the sun, the weather, disease and death, etc.  Slowly, great thinkers began to offer plausible non-divine explanations for all these physical phenomena, and we have been continually refining these explanations ever since.  We still can't wrap our brains around things like apparent evil, death, our fate after death, etc., so we've still got to keep a subset of gods and devils around for good measure.

 

None of that is to say I don't really like that Corinthians verse, because I do.  I've actually used it in lectures as a warning to students to never feel too comfortable about what we think we know of the living world.  The beautiful intricacy of organic existence at all levels of organization often "destroys the wisdom of the wise and "frustrates the intelligence of the intelligent."

Thanks Jim, I appreciate and understand your opinion. but who said I wanted to pray for you?

 

seriously though, my anthropology prof last semester spoke on the same lines as you, and I continue to research the history of my beliefs. It's interesting to see how the bible was formed and who set it in place to make all of it happen. I totally agree that it is difficult to trust a piece of literature that is a "product" of man, however, I have complete faith that the individuals whose words are written in the bible are words written on their hearts by God. I trust that in the formation of the bible, there were individuals that were in place to protect the message of Christ, much like the US rising to power as hilter threatened the world.

 

Good people rise up when evil threatens their existance.

[cwsox]

It doesn't surprise me that you don't get it. You probably never will, and I'm sorry for that. please don't tell me that I need to adopt a new vision of who I believe God is because of your inability to understand where I stand in my faith.

 

 

I grew up in the part of the Church that shared that vision, I understand that faith stance well, and I left that part of the Church long ago to be in a different place in the Church. It is not the vision the God has given to me, and it certainly is not the understanding of what it means to be a Christian as I am informed by the Scriptures.

 

If your vision works for you, fine, God's blessings, it works for some. It does not work for all. God's gift is the vastness of ways that we may comprehend God because God is so much more profound than our ability to conceive.

 

There are many other visions of God that the Spirit grants and the respect for the vision of others is integral to the prayers of Jesus that we may all be one.

 

A very important to my theological stance stems from the insights that God in all mercy granted to me by the Spirit as I reads all of the Scriptures and that is that the least thing that our faith is about is "salvation" or "where will I spend eternity" or however one phrases it. Jesus (as the Incarnate One) nor God call us to too having too much heaven on our minds*. The Gospel is not some sort of insurance policy. We do not respond to the call of Christ because we get something for it.

 

The recorded words of Jesus speak very little of what is to come after death in comparison to what all is recorded that Jesus said. The Easter message the from beyond death Christ calls, that death has no victiory, has no triumph, that death is God's enemy to be destroyed and that we will share in communion with God that transcends this life, that is all very sweet - but it is not the point or object of faith.

 

Living out the call of Christ in response to God, that is point. And that is centered in this life.

 

The least thing I understand that we are called to do is convert others to believe doctrinal matters in uniformity with our particular theological tradition in the Church. The least thing we are called to do is enlist others to have our identical set of human construct faith beliefs.

 

If the Church were truly about doing what od requires, estabishing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with its God, I believe all the world would know God through us a whole letter than they do now where we sometimes treat others as people to get signed up on our doctrinal assent statements.

 

Given the variety of Christian faith traditions, I think that we all exist as part of the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of Jesus Christ becase we reflect the diversity of humanity which is a reflection of the diversity, the vastness, of God. Blessings be on us all.

 

I am not going to play Bible quoters. I am really, really good at it, better than anyone. What some of you can do with minor league stats, for example, I can do with the Biblical texts. That is my vocation after all.

 

As I said before, I have been clearly convinced by the Scriputres which are the source for the faith and life of the Church that we know God in Christ, those of us who do, and that there may well be other ways for others to know God and it is not for me to deny that God's grace can reach anyone in a way that is real for each person. I am not going to pretend that my faith traditioon, or more properly, the dogamtic theological affirmations of the faith tradition and faith body to which I belong, by which I include all Christendom, is the only way that God has ever interacted with the human creation. I know the revelation of God in Christ. I will not try and limit God to only doing revelation in the manner that I know by reason of birth place and culture.

 

Oh, Bible verses can be quoted that out of the entire Scriuptural context would not support that. I could overwhelm this forum with the supporting Scriptural texts and reflections off of those. It woudl serve no purpose. I affirm the goodness of the vision of PA, 2k4, kap, others. It is a different vision that God has granted to me, to others. God is not limited by our limitations. We may all disagree on doctrinal points and yet all be right.

 

The very issues that FlaSoxxJim raises as problematic continue yet to be problematic. I being a different person than PA would respond differently. Blessed is Jim, blessed is PA. Blessed is I4E. Blessed are those who.... agree with me? agree with my theoligcal mandates? Blessed. Blessed are those who have understood God and related to God in ways vastly different than my ways because God's grace and love are supreme - not a particular faith or religion being supreme - but the Freedom God to be love to all made in God's own image, that is everything.

 

 

 

*musical reference for FlaSoxxJim

[FlaSoxxJim]

I trust that in the formation of the bible, there were individuals that were in place to protect the message of Christ, much like the US rising to power as hilter threatened the world.

 

Good people rise up when evil threatens their existance.

So the take-home message is that Bush's days at the White House are numbered, right?

[sox4lifeinPA]

So the take-home message is that Bush's days at the White House are numbered, right? 

"blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God"

 

 

you're probably right, Jim. my issue is that I don't necessarily like Kerry, where as I would vote for Clinton...maybe. WILLIAM and NOOOOOOOOOOOT hillary...ew.

 

anyway, peace and love are not apart of the Bush doctrine, so I believe that God might take away his position of power.

 

regardless... Psalm 109:8 sums up my thougts on John Kerry becoming president "May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership. "

[sox4lifeinPA]

I am not going to play Bible quoters. I am really, really good at it, better than anyone. What some of you can do with minor league stats, for example, I can do with the Biblical texts. That is my vocation after all....It woudl serve no purpose.

 

actually, it would. I'm looking to learn and I respect what you have to say. help me understand the word, because maybe I'm looking at it incorrectly. at the very least, help me understand your position, as to further my own faith.

 

I understand if you don't.

 

thanks cdub. I appreciate your thoughts.

[FlaSoxxJim]

too much heaven on our minds

 

musical reference for FlaSoxxJim

 

Thanks, my mind IS clearer now...

 

Nazareth, your famous Son should have stayed a great unknown, like His father carving wood – He'd have made good.  Tables, chairs, and oaken chests – would have suited Jesus best, He'd have caused nobody harm, noone alarm.

 

CW, do you like Elvis Costello? One of my favorite Costello songs is called "God's Comic" off of the "Spike" album. It's got a great visual reference to a lecherous priest meeting up with God in Heaven after he dies, and God is listening to A.L. Webber's Requiem. The tag line is "He said before we'd really begun, I preferred the one about my Son..." My favorite line of the song, though, is the next one where God says "I've been wading through all this unbelievable junk and wondering if I should have given the world to the monkeys."

[cwsox]

Thanks, my mind IS clearer now...

 

 

 

CW, do you like Elvis Costello?  One of my favorite Costello songs is called "God's Comic" off of the "Spike" album.  It's got a great visual reference to a lecherous priest meeting up with God in Heaven after he dies, and God is listening to A.L. Webber's Requiem.  The tag line is "He said before we'd really begun, I preferred the one about my Son..."  My favorite line of the song, though, is the next one where God says "I've been wading through all this unbelievable junk and wondering if I should have given the world to the monkeys."

not much into Elvis C (or Elvis P.. I did love Elvis Grbac when he was qb for Michigan )

 

I love the lyrics you quote from him though

 

for my money JCSuperstar is still the best

 

what is truth, some unchanging law?

what is truth, is mine the same as yours?

 

 

like the best line ever...

[Soxy]

Just some Biblical verses--perhaps not all of it should be taken verbatim. I would argue that it is the spirit of love, acceptance and reaching out that is what is characteristic of Christianity. I think that, for a very large portion of Christians the way that the exculsionary verses (as well as the predestination verses) are looked at is in a form of content criticism. We must look at the overarching message of Jesus, and see if those verses fit in. I would personally hedge my bets with a God of love, but then again, that's me. Anyway, here are some of my faves:

 

Duet. 22: 23-26; 28-29

If there is a young woman, a virgin, already engaged to be married, and a man meets her in the town and lies with her, you shall bring both of them to the gate of the town and stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry for help in the town and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. But if the man meets the engaged woman in the open country, and the man seizes her and lies with her then only the man who lay with her shall die. If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the lact, the man who lay with her shall give 50 sheckels of silver to the young women's father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.

 

Mark 3:20-21

Then he (Jesus) went home; and the crown came together again, so that they could not even eat. When his family heard it, the went out to restrain him, for people were saying, "He has gone out of his mind."

 

1 Cor. 11 2:4-5

Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unvieled disgraces her head.

 

1 Timothy 2:11-12

Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over man; she is to keep silent.

 

Proverbs 23:13-14

Do not withhold discipline from your children;

if you beat them with a rod,

they will not die.

If you beat them with the rod you will save their lives from Sheol.

 

Luke 9:60

But he said, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."

But Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead; but as for you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

 

Luke 14:26

Jesus said, "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Yep, this Christianity stuff is clear as mud, huh?

[cwsox]

random verses can be pulled out that sound abhorent, to be sure, and that can be done with just about any literature

 

there are so many sources of Biblical texts, so many styles of literature, so many contexts of which we are unaware -

 

one of the best things that I ever did was study the Scriptures in seminary - those classes opened so much to me - of course I am firmly in the so-called critical studies of Scriptures (literary criticism, historic, redaction, etc) for getting at what is there - I can't explain the experience but I really recommend that you consider that.

 

One of the outcomes for me was to see the Scriptures as a whole and use that as a prism for looking at any particular passage, especially the problematic ones.

 

The Deuteronomic code was never exercised in reality, it was a reform of a certain late time period in the monarchy (and it was in way written by Moses to say the very least). Some of the lesser parts of that code, such as the one cited, in their historic context actually establish a worth for women that was fairly unknown in its time; yet again it remains a patriarchial (in its negative sense) possessory passage. It stands as a commentary on a culture that was overthrown by history which if one takes the (totally unstudied by most) 8th century prophets and their successors seriously (as I do) this is nothing more than a cultural artifact.

 

you'd find some interesting understandings of that Markan text from the Jesus Seminar. That passage is interesting in the discussion of what was the Messianic concept that Jesus held in self contemplation as well as what the family thought which becomes more interesting recalling that Mark gives us no birth narratives (which are totally ahistorical while yet witnessing to the Gospel). Yes, Jesus' family thought he was crazy when the period of public ministry began.

 

Paul has occasional misogynist comments and that is one. That I hope should not take away from the brilliance of Paul's theology. No one is perfect. But Paul was, to me, an astounding theologican and in my realm Paul ranks with Luther and Bonhoeffer as the greatest of the Church. Correct translations of Romans and other Pauline writings reveals Paul considering women as equals in the presbyterate which was later covered up by intentional mis-translating for the sake of removing women from leadership in the institutionalizing Church of the post destruction of Jerusalem period when Rome began to assert domiance; prior to 70 CE the church was quite a bit more egalitarian than it was later.

 

The Timothy text, there is a mystery in authorship. See my comments above.

 

Proverbs is a tough book because of its overstated didactic style and its periodic bromides. That passage, a cultural artifact. If we de-violence-ize that passage, it does say to not let one's kids walk all over one, be a parent in the best of senses.

 

Luke 9 text is directly dependent on similar passages in the Elijah/Elisha narratives among others. There are plenty of times in pastoral ministry that I have given and been in need of the admonition to let the dead bury the dead and move into life. That passage also echoes the story of Lot's wife - as Bob Dylan said, never look back - move forward, don't dwell, don't live, in the past.

 

Luke 14, perhaps a gloss, perhaps a real echo of the Essene community which Jesus certainly was familiar with. The term "hate" is used to really catch one's attention to the call of a radical discipleship which rejected the status quo of its day and resonntes yet today in certain situations. It is certainly balanced with many other passages which speak of the opposite. Jesus' teachings are recorded in great degree in a koine Greek "mn de" (poor transliteration) construction - on the one had, on the other hand. It is dialetic without ever reaching, let alone attempting, synthesis. It is a truism that the mark of a good Lutheran theologian or any one who studies the recorded sayngs must be capable of holding two opposing thoughts in one's mind at the same time. Sometimes it is referred to as doing theology or Biblical studies in tension - we have things that are in tension with other things and what God is saying is found as we look at those things holding in tension and realize that nothing comes in neat little gift boxes tied up with string.

[Soxy]

CW--I agree completely, and in a muddled sense that was what I was trying to say. You can find moral and ethical justification for many, many things within Bible. It's a matter of looking at everything as a whole--and since I would argue the Christian faith is one that (hopefully) is founded on love, to pull random verses out of the bible that condem and judge others is contrary to the nature...And I am only recently being able to read Paul again--I think that too often his statements regarding men and women being one and gender differences being gone in the eyes of God are often overlooked. I feel that many of the spiteful verses are added at a later date--and for anyone that would argue the Bible is infallible I would invite those to look at the Beginning of Mark and the prophet that is quoted there--that prophesy isn't actually in Isaiah.

 

I just find it intriguing that when given a book of such magnificient love people look first to whom that love is not extended--or instead of looking at the unifying properties of faith we all too often revel in divisive "truths" that make us somehow better, stronger, or more holy than our neighbor.

[cwsox]

Paul in Galatians (when he was thinking) said that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek male nor female... that Pauline text was very helpful in establishing the ordination of women in the mainstream church bodies

 

you'd be right about later added material and certainly have me writing a letter of recommendation to LSTC for you by your saying

I just find it intriguing that when given a book of such magnificient love people look first to whom that love is not extended--or instead of looking at the unifying properties of faith we all too often revel in divisive "truths" that make us somehow better, stronger, or more holy than our neighbor.

[sox4lifeinPA]

I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over man

 

While I'm not taking away from a woman's wisdom and intelligence, I do think that there's something "funny" about women pastors, ministers, preachers. Of course I'm the narrow-minded, ignorant one, so that makes sense to y'all. I know plenty of independent minded, free thinking women that would support that statement.

 

"that's a sign of the patrioarchial culture, holding the women down" boo that. Men were created to lead (and screw up). Just because our culture changes (and its primarily a s*** culture if you haven't taken a look recently) doesn't invalidate what the gospel and new testament writers had to say.

 

With that, I don't think we should silence women in the church, quite the opposite. I think women deserve to be heard equally, but ultimately are the support of male leadership.

 

Furthermore, I completely agree that Christ's message was one of love. OT cultures, NT culture, and the cultures ever since all lack compassion, fairness, justice, and love towards fellow man. That's the state of sin we're locked in. However, to simple ignore the rest of the commandments and what Christ had to say about the way to enter (12 virgins, guests at the party, etc)

 

Our love from each other stems from the faith and affirmation as Christ as the center. He is the pinnacle of Love, and through salvation and our baptism in the spirit, we are capable of godly love. All good works are from Him and nothing that we do.

 

<...>

 

 

can't wait for the flack to fly.

[Soxy]

I suppose that's why there are so many denominations with so many different beliefs. I have no problem with them until they start regulating what my relationship with God will be. And, well, I suppose that's one reason why I can never join one of those--if I ever decide to wholeheartedly embrace the Christian tradition. I suppose my only criticism would be that it is a form of violence (against character and self worth of MANY, MANY, MANY women) to not allow her to have the same level of commitment, purpose, and leadership as a man in church. People that don't think so are welcome to join churches that support that their views. I would prefer to belong to a church that accepts Jesus' teachings of radical inclusion and the uplifting of all its members, as opposed to some of the more exclusionary and hierarichal teachings, but then again that is my belief.

 

(And for the record, my parents' especially father;s--although he's stopped talking about it with me since I can kick his butt in a theological and biblical discussion--brand of Christianity is quite similar to the one you describe. And I can say with great certainty both my sister and I struggle constantly with the thought of how can one be loved better, and be more favored in the site of an all just God, when the only difference is gender. It has been a wedge between myself and God for a long time.)

[sox4lifeinPA]

I suppose that's why there are so many denominations with so many different beliefs. I have no problem with them until they start regulating what my relationship with God will be.  And, well, I suppose that's one reason why I can never join one of those--if I ever decide to wholeheartedly embrace the Christian tradition. I suppose my only criticism would be that it is a form of violence (against character and self worth of MANY, MANY, MANY women) to not allow her to have the same level of commitment, purpose, and leadership as a man in church. People that don't think so are welcome to join churches that support that their views. I would prefer to belong to a church that accepts Jesus' teachings of radical inclusion and the uplifting of all its members, as opposed to some of the more exclusionary and hierarichal teachings, but then again that is my belief.

 

(And for the record, my parents' especially father;s--although he's stopped talking about it with me since I can kick his butt in a theological and biblical discussion--brand of Christianity is quite similar to the one you describe. And I can say with great certainty both my sister and I struggle constantly with the thought of how can one be loved better, and be more favored in the site of an all just God, when the only difference is gender. It has been a wedge between myself and God for a long time.)

Thanks for not jumping on me about it Soxy. I honestly don't think God looks at any of us differently. infinite love is infinite love. we are but a dixie cup and God is niagra falls.

 

do we have different roles in the church? I would think so. do we have different roles in a marriage? definitely. I can't and would never want to house a growing baby inside me. and miss sox4life doesn't want to be away from the house and family like I'd be when at work. However, we are both working towards masters degrees and love learning.

 

I try not to use whole paragraphs of scripture because of length, but honestly, that's how they're intended to be read.

 

 

"Wives and Husbands

 

1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. "

 

 

That's 1 peter, I'm sure that's nothing new to you, but I loved the message of womenhood being so much more subtle and infiltrating than the corseness of manhood.

 

I don't know, I understand and appreciate your views, please find a church like that. Have you check out House of Mercy in St. Paul? that's where my bro goes from time to time. they're pretty inclusive (he's a treehugger too... )

[Soxy]

Nope never been there--only time I go to worship in the Twin Cities is when I go a temple or synagogue (never can spell it). Hm, a liberal who went to Bethel--now I've officially heard everything.

 

While I understand those passages you quoted from Paul, I also see that Jesus accepted teaching from a woman (and a GENTILE woman at that--Matt 15). I also know that Paul did NOT preach marriage as the preferable route to salvation (1Cor. 7). And as cw mentioned there are the times when he mentiones that there is no race nor gender in God/Christ. Also, I think it's interesting to see how Jesus included women in his ministry--his was a message of radical inclusion. And that he allowed women to speak to him and his disciples says so much about the egalitarian message and wisdom he possesses. I find Jesus' message and life to be quite contrary to the messages in Paul (the one about women being quiet, submissive, etc). And I find Paul to be quite contrary to himself. I guess it just boils down to two ways to read the same book--we find what is most spiritually beneficial to the us and run with that.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Hm, a liberal who went to Bethel--now I've officially heard everything.

 

he's the first and only, IIRC. he was part of the group that got dancing "ok'ed" on campus. shocking, really.

 

also see that Jesus accepted teaching from a woman (and a GENTILE woman at that--Matt 15)

 

"A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

 

Jesus did not answer a word

 

obviously the passage goes on to show that he grants the request because of the great FAITH that she had shown in Jesus. However, the thing that sticks out to me doesn't have to do much the woman at all. Jesus waited for his disciples to try to get rid of her, but makes the point to show them that the kingdom of heaven most certainly does include women, and moreover that we can learn much about a woman's faith. I don't think that's "teaching" at all, but a lifestyle that should be exemplified. So You're totally right on the inclusing, just not about the teaching.

 

with that being said:

Also, I think it's interesting to see how Jesus included women in his ministry

 

I wholeheartedly agree, and this is probably because the jewish traditions didn't respect women in the leadership much at all, if any.

 

 

I think this passage is one of the most amazing passages in scriptures and yet it sickens me to watch the evangelical church produce mirror image divorce rates as the "secular" world.

 

It is good for a man not to marry.[1] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

 

Paul's basically saying that "hey, it's best if men don't marry, but since there's so much smut and temptation out there, it's probably a good idea that you get your grove on with one lady, and women, with one man." (imagine what he'd think today....) "on second thought, it wouldnt matter either way, would it?"

 

I love the part about a woman/man's body not belonging to her/himself. I know paul means in a physical way, but I think it reflects a sacrifice that occurs on the wedding day. you no longer can live for the satisfaction of yourself, but for the needs of the other person. I don't know. I'm friggin' ready to get married, that's why I'm zoned in on those passages.

 

 

like I said, I think there's alot more room for women in the church today (clearly men cannot do it alone) but as far as the biblical church goes, I don't see much precidence for women being the head of any church. not saying they shouldn't (well at my church they shouldn't )

 

thanks for that soxy, anyone else in on this?

[FlaSoxxJim]

While I'm not taking away from a woman's wisdom and intelligence, I do think that there's something "funny" about women pastors, ministers, preachers. Of course I'm the narrow-minded, ignorant one, so that makes sense to y'all.

 

Ok, just so you know...

 

 

I think women deserve to be heard equally, but ultimately are the support of male leadership.

 

Soxy just must not have the energy to jump on you over this, and for that matter neither do I. In honor of SOXMAN's[!!!] Orwell references today, the above quote from you is so "but some are more equal than others" it's hard to believe you wrote it with a straight face. How can theer be equality between the genders if ultimately the women is fully expected to submit to male will?

 

And, while Soxy chose not to take you to task, she did in so many words say you are welcome to find a denominational church that is equally , and also hopefully far, far away from the rest of us.

 

But if Mis 4Life is on board with the Divinely ordained second-class status, good on ya. :headshake

[Soxy]

Hate to say it PA, but my translation is better. And dang, I love the Cor verse so I'm going to have to tell the people how it should be. And this is actually the verse I was referring to:

To the unmarried and the widows I say, it is well for them to remain unmarried as I am. But if they are not practicing self-control they would marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.

 

My wedding verse.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Ok, just so you know...

 

 

 

 

Soxy just must not have the energy to jump on you over this, and for that matter neither do I.  In honor of SOXMAN's[!!!] Orwell references today, the above quote from you is so "but some are more equal than others" it's hard to believe you wrote it with a straight face.  How can theer be equality between the genders if ultimately the women is fully expected to submit to male will?

 

And, while Soxy chose not to take you to task, she did in so many words say you are welcome to find a denominational church that is equally     , and also hopefully far, far away from the rest of us.

 

But if Mis 4Life is on board with the Divinely ordained second-class status, good on ya. :headshake

cue "battle hymn of the republic"

 

apparently I'm the slack jawed yokel that soxtalk always needed....

 

How can theer be equality between the genders if ultimately the women is fully expected to submit to male will?

 

a funny movie quote "Men are the head of the house, but women are the neck..."

 

in other words, I may make a lot of the decisions in my relationship with miss sox4l, that doesn't mean I haven't heard her 45 minute opinion on why or why not that decision shouldn't be made. so in agreeance, I suppose that women have different "authority" than men in the church, so clearly there might not be equality in that, but i never said that opinions and thoughts weren't heard on equal levels.

 

now you're just looking to pick me apart, Jim....

 

and also hopefully far, far away from the rest of us.

if so, I must be doing something right then. I wish the rest of my life reflected that statement. And I think you're mistaken, soxy was saying that she's familiar with my "brand of Christianity " and I think she's the one searching for the denomination that fits her best (all of which I appluad and wish her the best, so please don't try to drive a wedge between our very civil conversation)

 

But if Mis 4Life is on board with the Divinely ordained second-class status, good on ya. :headshake

 

that's a little ridiculous, but thanks. When did it become against human existence to live life in a traditional manner? man goes to work, wife stays at home, kids go to school, pets crap on the floor. why do people attack this as if THAT is what's killing America? That's a flagrant and narrow-minded attack on what she and I believe, if you want to talk about contradictions.

 

with that being said, I hope that one day, Jim, you and I could sit down at Perkins or bennigans or whatever and have a nice meal and respect the sides we sit on. There's no reason to get mad about any of this. It's a bunch of hunches and guess anyway, right?

 

[sox4lifeinPA]

Hate to say it PA, but my translation is better. And dang, I love the Cor verse so I'm going to have to tell the people how it should be.  And this is actually the verse I was referring to:

To the unmarried and the widows I say, it is well for them to remain unmarried as I am. But if they are not practicing self-control they would marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.

 

My wedding verse. 

damnit, I'm aflame with passion

 

I'm thinking las vegas wedding this summer. where's that "sex before marriage is bad" passage? I can't find it anywhere

[FlaSoxxJim]

Heck, there's no getting mad at this end. And I'll pop for your country skillet when I run into you at Perkins.

 

I'm the product of a traditional family upbringing to the age of 12 or so, when economic realities forced my mom into the workplace. I have nothing wrong with a one working parent situation at all and would love to be able to do it, but I don't think the woman should, per force, be the one staying at home.

 

The point for me is that it's supposed to get to the point where it is the choice of the individual and not a societal thing. Tradition is not necessarily a good reason for making choices if the tradition in question has been one of subjugating women. And there is equal or there is not equal. There's no such thing as 'equal but the man has the final word.'

 

None of this is to deny the differences between males and females of the species. But we're not hunter-gatherers anymore, nor are we warring tribes in which 'might makes right' was a reasonable survival strategy. We've advanced to the point where women shouldn't be paying a pennance for the flaws and f*** ups of men. OT says if a man is going to screw around it's better that he take a wife - heck of a deal for the wife to be saddled with a guy of questionable commitment. Some self-righteous Puritans in Salem get hot and bothered by some of the women and it's chalked up to whitchcraft and the women get toasted. Sperm is cheap and natural selection has not placed a premium on male fidelity, so instead of working harder on the fidelity thing, some men decide to craft the Mormon religion because it sanctions polygamy for men but not women...

[cwsox]

While I'm not taking away from a woman's wisdom and intelligence, I do think that there's something "funny" about women pastors, ministers, preachers.

What I think is "funny" is anyone who would restrict the call of God to the vocation of the office of ministry by reason of gender. To deny ordained ministry to women is as far as I can see sinful.

 

Women served in the role of presbyter in the early Church and were systmatically removed from that position because of the male tendency to dominate. Intentional mistranslations of the same word when used towards males and females - there is a lot of Biblical scholarship out there available on that.

 

I have worked with ordained women for all of my ordained years and see nothing funny about it but I have seen the ranks of the ordained clergy strengthened by its being open to Christ's call to all of Christ's people, reflecting Galatians, that in Christ there is no male nor female.

[sox4lifeinPA]

What I think is "funny" is anyone who would restrict the call of God to the vocation of the office of ministry by reason of gender. To deny ordained ministry to women is as far as I can see sinful.

 

 

I just read an explanation that mirrored your thoughts, except for the sinful part (which is the second contradiction I've read tonight).

 

I don't think I can really say much about this that won't be taken and manipulated into something else. Soxygirl said it hours ago... that's why we have different denominations.

 

I don't believe I could be as effectively led by woman pastor, as I would with a male one. there I said it. I've heard many speakers both male and female, and both have effectively minister through their words, but honestly, I like the idea of a group of deacons/elders sharing the preaching load anyway.... male and female.

 

 

it's late, goodnight.

[cwsox]

I just read an explanation that mirrored your thoughts, except for the sinful part (which is the second contradiction I've read tonight).

 

I don't think I can really say much about this that won't be taken and manipulated into something else. Soxygirl said it hours ago... that's why we have different denominations.

 

I don't believe I could be as effectively led by woman pastor, as I would with a male one.  there I said it. I've heard many speakers both male and female, and both have effectively minister through their words, but honestly, I like the idea of a group of deacons/elders sharing the preaching load anyway.... male and female.

 

 

it's late, goodnight.

As I recall I spoke of blessings on you and the grace we have of diversity within the church and it is all good

 

your existential feelings towards a woman as pastor might change if you have a pastoral encounter with one - that would be my guess - it has been the experience of many - if the Spirit brings that to happen or not, good on you in God's name

 

but as I said a few days ago in God's house there are many rooms and we don't have to crowd into the same one, which is my way of say as I have been saying all along that the diversity of Church is a gift and that is the equivilant of saying why we have many denominations

 

glad that Soxygirl said it for you better than I did -

 

and I am sorry that what I say is written so poorly vis a vis you, would be best that I withdraw from the conversation here since I am not writing it well enough to have any meaning so as not to waste the reader's time, I will absent.