Gload at 3B?

[witesoxfan]

I might or might not, depending on Delgado's knee. Sox get Delgado as well as 4 Mill to spend on REALLY good pitcher around July.

All the more reason to do it. Possibly get a good starter plus Delgado? We are almost as set as we can get for the playoffs, and at that point, it is roll the dice and hope it comes up 11 wins for us.

 

On the other hand, Cotts AND Honel are the FUTURE of this franchise.   We already got burned on Kip Wells, and these two are arguably as talented as Kipster is.  

 

The one thing you have to consider about us getting burned badly when talking about Wells is that that move took place in the offseason, when we were NOT in a pennant race. We do it at the deadline, and IMO, it isn't quite as bad, simply because we let it be known that we are playing for the present and not the future.

 

If I am Toronto and I am taking on salaries (esp Konerko), I sure as hell demand BOTH.    I wish we could throw them a Wing or a Pacheco, but I am afraid to the rest of the baseball, those are just B-talent prospects who have limited value.

 

They'll probably take the best offer. If the best offer they receive is Konerko, Lee, Koch, Wing, and Pacheco for Delgado, they have to take it. Given, I do believe it would take Honel and/or Cotts, but I'm just saying.

 

Delgado is gone after 2004.....

 

If we make the playoffs and Maggs is resigned. We make the playoffs and we let Maggs go, I can see us resigning Delgado(maybe not at the $15 or $16 mill a year he got in his last contract, but that was back when the market was up like crazy and a guy like Vlad would have gotten $20 mill a year. Hell, Javy Lopez got like $8 mill a year and he was s***ty in his contract year. Charles Johnson had a good contract year, but got money up the ass. Denny Neagle and Mike Hampton both got s***potfuls of money too.

 

Delgado should get $12-14 mill a year in the market as is, so it's like I said - if this deal is made, either Maggs is resigned and Delgado is let loose, or Delgado is resigned and Maggs is let loose.

 

You also have to consider in resigning Esteban too. He should be priority #1, regardless of who we acquire at the trade deadline.

[SoxAce]

We do it at the deadline, and IMO, it isn't quite as bad, simply because we let it be known that we are playing for the present and not the future.

Haven't we been trying to compete for the present for the past 3 years now..? We've traded away alot of prospects (esp. last year) and we keep missing the playoffs, hell can't even win the division. Granted that was when Manuel managed, but it's still stripped down our farm system. I would only trade a prospect like a Rauch, or a Borchard, etc. then to even touch our future plans. Don't matter how much offense we have it's all about pitching. (Plus, we have alot of HR potential on the team) Honel, Wing, McCarthy, Diaz, Cotts, Munoz etc. aren't going anywhere.

[witesoxfan]

Haven't we been trying to compete for the present for the past 3 years now..? We've traded away alot of prospects (esp. last year) and we keep missing the playoffs, hell can't even win the division. Granted that was when Manuel managed, but it's still stripped down our farm system. I would only trade a prospect like a Rauch, or a Borchard, etc. then to even touch our future plans. Don't matter how much offense we have it's all about pitching. (Plus, we have alot of HR potential on the team) Honel, Wing, McCarthy, Diaz, Cotts, Munoz etc. aren't going anywhere.

Last year was the first year since 2000 that we were trading FOR players at the deadline; the first time we were BUYERS. In 01 and 02 we were trading players away after having horrendous first halfs of both seasons(started out about 14-29 in 01, and were 10 games below .500 come July in 02), so we had little shot of doing anything. Even considering that, we only lost about 6 A ball minor leaguers last year and then 2 AAA players(Bittner and Hummel) last year.

 

What stripped down our farm system was a new GM with the reins as well as injuries. Myette for Clayton was the first one and I'm quite sure we lost Beirne to Toronto in part of the David Wells deal. Barcelo's career was ruined due to injuries, Rauch's has been stalled by injuries...etc. They were Nardi-ized.

 

However, what I don't think you understand is that I do want pitching, I do thinkwe need pitching. We need another starter...Piniero/Wells/etc.

 

BTW, don't tell the Yankees you win the World Series because of pitching. They forgot that after the 2001 World Series.

[YASNY]

I read through most of this thread and had to stop. I couldn't take any more. I cannot believe anyone in their right mind would seriously consider playing Gload at 3rd base on a major league level other than as a dire emergency fill in. Other than publicity stunts and emergency fill ins, their have not been any lefthanded ML 3rd basemen that I know of. It just doesn't work. For starters, the poor guy would be bunted to death.

 

Crede's stock has plummeted? Ummm ... sure, ok, whatever.

[BrandoFan]

Crede's stock has plummeted?  Ummm ... sure, ok, whatever. 

 

In 2002-2003 off-season, after two minor-league MVP campaigns and an awesome finish to 2002, I am guessing half the GM's in the majors would have LOVED to have the privilege of overpaying for a 24yo JJJ.

 

Now that he's turning 26 and after VERY mediocre 2003 and even worse start to 2004, he is no longer the golden boy -- and rightfully so.

 

And, yes, I would consider 500 OPS (and he's a baseclogger who will hit into his share of GIDP so his OPS is even worse than, say, Willie's would be) a "dire emergency" when we're talking about a franchise that's fighting for survival. The team must win. Putting LH-throwing Gload aside for a second....something has to be done about both Joe and Willie -- get Spivey and now Joe will have some competition from Uribe once Jose comes back. You'll see hat stroke shortened in a hurry.

[BrandoFan]

Last year was the first year since 2000 that we were trading FOR players at the deadline; the first time we were BUYERS.  In 01 and 02 we were trading players away after having horrendous first halfs of both seasons(started out about 14-29 in 01, and were 10 games below .500 come July in 02), so we had little shot of doing anything.  Even considering that, we only lost about 6 A ball minor leaguers last year and then 2 AAA players(Bittner and Hummel) last year. 

 

What stripped down our farm system was a new GM with the reins as well as injuries.  Myette for Clayton was the first one and I'm quite sure we lost Beirne to Toronto in part of the David Wells deal.  Barcelo's career was ruined due to injuries, Rauch's has been stalled by injuries...etc.  They were Nardi-ized.

 

However, what I don't think you understand is that I do want pitching, I do thinkwe need pitching.  We need another starter...Piniero/Wells/etc.

 

BTW, don't tell the Yankees you win the World Series because of pitching.  They forgot that after the 2001 World Series.

I see what you're saying, Wite, but Honel AND Cotts? If Delgado was healthy, young, cheap and signed for more than a year, then maybe....But I am not sure I like the deal.

 

Something HAS to be learned from the Ritchiegate.

[witesoxfan]

I see what you're saying, Wite, but Honel AND Cotts? If Delgado was healthy, young, cheap and signed for more than a year, then maybe....But I am not sure I like the deal. 

 

Something HAS to be learned from the Ritchiegate.

You are right that there is a point when you have to just look at the situation and sit down and seriously consider whether or not that will be good for your team not only in the present, but also the long term and what effects it could have. Maybe Cotts and Honel is too much...I'm at the sit down part of it, and haven't looked.

 

The more I think about it however, the more I think we are safer trading for Palmeiro from Baltimore. Makes less money, will cost the franchise less in terms of prospects, and is still quite effective(think of it as getting Dwayne Wade in the NBA draft instead of LeBron James or Carmelo Anthony). That trade would potentially be Lee straight up for Palmeiro, and if Baltimore would accept that deal, I would do it right now. Given, they are still in the race, so we should wait until June or July and make the deal(once again, assuming Baltimore is out of it). We'd then have to find a different location for Konerko immediately. Having Konerko, Thomas, and Palmeiro on your team is very inefficient and would not be good for the team. You then have no leverage and take the best offer you can for Konerko(for example...Darin Erstad straight up for Konerko...not that I would be in favor of it...but Erstad is a solid hitter, though overpaid, and Konerko would take over 1B for them). We then put Erstad in LF, and while I don't like him much there(injuries), I would imagine that he wouldn't get banged up too badly out there. And if he does, we have the already infamous Jeremy Reed waiting in the wings.

 

 

 

Considering both of those scenarios...I would feel better about the offense with Delgado in the lineup(about .320 45 140 1.000-1.100 OPS a year from the LH side of the plate? I'll take it, thanks very much), but you have to consider what we could do with Palmeiro too. We get Palmeiro straight up for Lee(which is IMO very possible), trade Konerko straight up for Erstad(with a prospect here or there), and all of a sudden, you are looking at having the room to take on the Big Unit, with the only thing Arizona having to do is take on Erstad and his contract(Unit's making about $10.5 mill a year...take that $10.5 mill and subtract that $8 mill you get from Erstad, and you are looking at $2.5 mill. the difference between Lee and Palmeiro's salaries is about $3 mill, with Lee making about $6 or $6.5 mill and Palmeiro making about $3 mill. Not only do we have room to take on RJ, but we actually have room to add another reliever too, something JR would be very happy with).

[YASNY]

Damn right it's possible. Baltimore would trade Palmeiro for Lee in a New York minute! I can't believe you are seriously suggesting WE make that trade.

[YASNY]

In 2002-2003 off-season, after two minor-league MVP campaigns and an awesome finish to 2002, I am guessing half the GM's in the majors would have LOVED to have the privilege of overpaying for a 24yo JJJ.

 

Now that he's turning 26 and after VERY mediocre 2003 and even worse start to 2004, he is no longer the golden boy -- and rightfully so.

 

And, yes, I would consider 500 OPS (and he's a baseclogger who will hit into his share of GIDP so his OPS is even worse than, say, Willie's would be) a "dire emergency" when we're talking about a franchise that's fighting for survival. The team must win. Putting LH-throwing Gload aside for a second....something has to be done about both Joe and Willie -- get Spivey and now Joe will have some competition from Uribe once Jose comes back.    You'll see hat stroke shortened in a hurry.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of Crede's value, or lack thereof.

[BrandoFan]

Damn right it's possible.  Baltimore would trade Palmeiro for Lee in a New York minute! I can't believe you are seriously suggesting WE make that trade.

 

Let's be frank here.

 

Carlos is NOT a good defensive LF and he's an average baserunner. He's heavy and reckless, so injuries might become a big concern with each passing year as he gets older. Hell, Sox might convert him to a 1B if the chance ever presented itself.

 

So basically he'll be getting 9 Mill next year and probably even more as a FA thereafter.....for his BAT.

 

Let's check out Palmeiro's and Lee's OPS since 1999, shall we:

 

Lee: 815 (820 in 2004)

Palmeiro: 945 (960)

 

Not even close offensively.

 

Palmeiro is making 4 Mill, so you have extra 2.5 Mill (plus prospects) to spend at the Break on a good closer to make the bulpen playoff-caliber.

 

Lee's potential is very nice, but he's reaching what is the historical peak (28 years old) and he's looking as inconsistent as ever. Financially, Sox are no position to wait in case Caballo is a late-late bloomer like Sosa -- unlike Sham-I-am, Carlos won't have steroids at his disposal.

 

Why the trade won't happen:

 

1. Orioles are in contention.

2. Palmeiro plans to play 2 more years and finish as an 'O'

3. Konerko, Konerko, Konerko. Unless Kong catches fire and somehow convinces Angels to give up Washburn or Dodgers - Perez, there is no place for Palmeiro as Thomas is a DH.

[witesoxfan]

Why the trade won't happen:

 

1.  Orioles are in contention.

2.  Palmeiro plans to play 2 more years and finish as an 'O'

3.  Konerko, Konerko, Konerko. Unless Kong catches fire and somehow convinces Angels to give up Washburn or Dodgers - Perez, there is no place for Palmeiro as Thomas is a DH.

1. How do we know they're in contention come June or July? With Boston and New York both in the division, and knowing that New York will start playing better at some time, some one has to fall.

 

I personally doubt Baltimore is in contention come June or July. They have a huge lack of pitching, and their bullpen is being used quite a bit right now. It will wear out, and most likely sooner(June or July) than later(August or September)

 

2. That could be worked out. Let him finish the year here, and then he can either resign with Baltimore in the offseason or resign with us, play that year with us, and then resign with Baltimore for a farewell campaign.

 

3. This is very true. A lot of this does depend on Konerko and what type of numbers he has. I did point out that Konerko would have to be dealt, and I did propose Anaheim, though we would probably have to take on Erstad's contract. At that point, we could trade for a starter, and we could potentially have any starter in the league because of Erstad's contract. If we got Washburn, taking on another pitcher's contract would not be such a huge deal. We could take up to $8 mill or so on the payroll(or in other words, if the Phillies are out, which I highly doubt, we could get Billy Wagner if we pulled a string here or there). Maybe look at Ryan Klesko in San Diego and then work a deal with Detroit to get Urbina. There are numerous possibilities.

 

BTW...I highly doubt Anaheim does Konerko for Washburn AND Erstad. We would need to give them something in return...say Neal Cotts.

 

Personally, I would make a Konerko and Cotts for Washburn and Erstad deal.

[DonkeyKongerko]

This reminds of that Monty Python sketch where that guy gets paid to start arguments.

[Guest JimH]

This reminds of that Monty Python sketch where that guy gets paid to start arguments.

That sketch was hilarious ... the guy goes into the wrong room, starts getting verbally abused, and gets told, "OH ... You're here for abuse, this is arguments, abuse is down the hall!"

[BrandoFan]

I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of Crede's value, or lack thereof.

Do you honestly think that Joltin' Joe, Jr right now is worth as much as during the 2003 off-season?

 

You have got to be kiddin' me.

 

At 24, coming off 2002, he was one of THE hottest prospects in AL (5 years away from FA)

 

At 26, after struggles with pitch selection and a long swing, he is merely an average 3B, albeit one with a pretty high ceiling (3 years away from FA)

 

Back then, Sox could have had just about anybody for him.

 

Now, people are probably gonna ask for a Cotts/Honel/Munoz as well.

[BrandoFan]

1.  How do we know they're in contention come June or July?  With Boston and New York both in the division, and knowing that New York will start playing better at some time, some one has to fall.   

 

I personally doubt Baltimore is in contention come June or July.  They have a huge lack of pitching, and their bullpen is being used quite a bit right now.  It will wear out, and most likely sooner(June or July) than later(August or September)

 

2.  That could be worked out.  Let him finish the year here, and then he can either resign with Baltimore in the offseason or resign with us, play that year with us, and then resign with Baltimore for a farewell campaign.

 

3.  This is very true.  A lot of this does depend on Konerko and what type of numbers he has.  I did point out that Konerko would have to be dealt, and I did propose Anaheim, though we would probably have to take on Erstad's contract.  At that point, we could trade for a starter, and we could potentially have any starter in the league because of Erstad's contract.  If we got Washburn, taking on another pitcher's contract would not be such a huge deal.  We could take up to $8 mill or so on the payroll(or in other words, if the Phillies are out, which I highly doubt, we could get Billy Wagner if we pulled a string here or there).  Maybe look at Ryan Klesko in San Diego and then work a deal with Detroit to get Urbina.  There are numerous possibilities.

 

BTW...I highly doubt Anaheim does Konerko for Washburn AND Erstad.  We would need to give them something in return...say Neal Cotts. 

 

Personally, I would make a Konerko and Cotts for Washburn and Erstad deal.

1) You're right, although at the Break, you always have to overpay and Palmeiro would probably want the O's to get some great prospects in return ala his trade veto last year

 

When O's are out of it, why on earth would they want Caballo and his 9 Mill in 2005 anyway? They're fine with Gibbons at league minimum. Instead, they'll probably offer to pay Palmeiro's remaining salary in exchange for Borchard, Sweeney and Honel, or some such......Thanks, but no thanks -- the dude IS knocking on 40, afterall, and he ain't exactly Bonds.

 

2) I dunno, the prospect of padding his stats (which is all he cares aboutr at this point) on ALC pitching might be tempting.

 

3) Konerko as Salmon's replacement? Hmm.....Washburn + Erstad = 5 mill more than what Kong makes in 04 and -1 mill in 2005. On oe hand it's clear Garland and Show can't be counted on for s*** so SOX need a #3 anyway.

 

I don't think #2 takes place because of #1 and #3. Konerko's salary. O's not needing Lee. Sox not willing to give up the farm for an old slugger. Etc.

[YASNY]

Do you honestly think that Joltin' Joe, Jr right now is worth as much as during the 2003 off-season? 

 

You have got to be kiddin' me.

 

At 24, coming off 2002, he was one of THE hottest prospects in AL (5 years away from FA)

 

At 26, after struggles with pitch selection and a long swing, he is merely an average 3B, albeit one with a pretty high ceiling (3 years away from FA)

 

Back then, Sox could have had just about anybody for him.

 

Now, people are probably gonna ask for a Cotts/Honel/Munoz as well.

I honestly think there are GM's all over baseball that would love to acquire Joe Crede.

[YASNY]

Let's be frank here.

 

Carlos is NOT a good defensive LF and he's an average baserunner.  He's heavy and reckless, so injuries might become a big concern with each passing year as he gets older.    Hell, Sox might convert him to a 1B if the chance ever presented itself.

 

So basically he'll be getting 9 Mill next year and probably even more as a FA thereafter.....for his BAT.

 

Let's check out Palmeiro's and Lee's OPS since 1999, shall we:

 

Lee:  815 (820 in 2004)

Palmeiro: 945 (960)

 

Not even close offensively. 

 

Palmeiro is making 4 Mill, so you have extra 2.5 Mill (plus prospects) to spend at the Break on a good closer to make the bulpen playoff-caliber.

 

Lee's potential is very nice, but he's reaching what is the historical peak (28 years old) and he's looking as inconsistent as ever. Financially, Sox are no position to wait in case Caballo is a late-late bloomer like Sosa -- unlike Sham-I-am, Carlos won't have steroids at his disposal.

 

Why the trade won't happen:

 

1.  Orioles are in contention.

2.  Palmeiro plans to play 2 more years and finish as an 'O'

3.  Konerko, Konerko, Konerko. Unless Kong catches fire and somehow convinces Angels to give up Washburn or Dodgers - Perez, there is no place for Palmeiro as Thomas is a DH.

C'mon. Palmeiro is on his last legs. He's just about done. He's had a great career, but it's almost over. As for using Palmeiro's stats since 99, well .... He won't duplicate them over the next 4 years, whereas Carlos just might. Lee is no longer a defensive liability in LF and he was the only one really showing showing hustle through the corpseball period of early last year. In fact, some of his hustle plays seemed to pull us out of our rut. I still say Baltimore would jump at the chance to make that trade and then laugh about it afterwards

[BrandoFan]

C'mon. Palmeiro is on his last legs. He's just about done. He's had a great career, but it's almost over.

 

That's what they said about Edgar who is almost 2 years older; up until he broke his foot in late August, Edgar was probably even better than Thomas in 2003 when you adjust for Safeco-USCF difference.....Palmeiro is far from done -- this year anyway, which is what we're talking about.

 

As for using Palmeiro's stats since 99, well .... He won't duplicate them over the next 4 years, whereas Carlos just might

 

Again, so far this year, he hasn't missed a beat. I could care less what he does after 2004.

 

And where did you get the "just might part"? Lee hasn't come close to those numbers -- and history says Carlos is already as good as he's going to get, a career year notwithstanding.

 

Lee is no longer a liability in LF and on the pads, you say? That's great, but last time I checked Jeremy Reed would kick his ass in both departments. So, basically, Lee's biggest asset to the Sox and other teams (who'll still try to convert him to 1B if they can) is AT THE PLATE.

 

I dunno about you, but 9 Mill in 2005 and lord knows how much after that.....that's too much for a player who MIGHT or might NOT be a late bloomer......if you're a budget-tight team like the Sox, anyway.

 

Ideally, I would love for Carlos to stay and for Konerko to be the odd man out, but we both know it's NOT going to happen. The Palmeiro idea doesn't work for many reasons listed in other posts, not the least of which is the fact that Baltimore has NO need for Lee. None.

 

But Sox DO need pitching badly. You won't get a Shilling/Hudson for Caballo, but you might just get Washburn as your #2-3. You still have to get a legitimate ace at the ASB if you're in contention, but that's another story for another thread.

[YASNY]

Brando, you make a lot of points that I agree with and I do respect what you have to say. However, on these issues I happen to disagree with you. So let's just agree to disagree and move on to something else we can butt heads on.