Quest for Noah's ark

[ChiSox_Sonix]

**Skepticism Warning**

 

Please, what a waste of time and money.  There was no stinkin boat built that held two of every species on Earth, and there was no world-wide flood for which it was allegedly built.

 

Will they be digging for Adam and Eve's bones next?

 

Not like it will matter--the people pushing for this won't ever admit that it isn't the ark anyways, much like how they can't let go of the shroud of Turin.

 

Just my $.02

you're not entirely correct. There is geological evidence that there was a huge, massive, catastrophic flood around the supposed time of Noah. Could the supposed boat have held 2 of every species? Of course not, but it may really have been a huge boat with many animals (hundreds maybe?) on board. I am highly critical of Biblical History, but, this is one story that MAY have a slight reality behind it, just nlown way out of proportion

[sox4lifeinPA]

you're not entirely correct. There is geological evidence that there was a huge, massive, catastrophic flood around the supposed time of Noah. Could the supposed boat have held 2 of every species? Of course not, but it may really have been a huge boat with many animals (hundreds maybe?) on board. I am highly critical of Biblical History, but, this is one story that MAY have a slight reality behind it, just nlown way out of proportion

definitely. a regionalized flood would jeopardize the local livestock. put two of each (did they test them to make sure their jumblies worked? ) and you're set. This clearly wasn't a 100% of the earth was covered in water deal...

[FlaSoxxJim]

I appluad scientists and their work, as long as their research isn't meant to demean my faith. Discover what you're going to discover and lose the agenda. Likewise, I think we christians have nothing to fear from this kind of research. Even if a final resolution comes about, what do we fear? being wrong, welp, their side doesn't offer hope either way. What do they have to fear? welp...you know. mass conversions and Christ's return. you cool with that? I'm cool with that.

You're welcome - those that stayed awake (you can feel sorry for my students now...). But...

 

As far as losing the agenda... Pally, ya gotta practice what you preach. your "what do we (Christians) fear" query is loaded because you answer your own question by deriding science as not "offering hope either way." Then you take a token stab at the flipside question by saying science has nothing to fear because, hey, who's not down with Rapture? Either way you slice it, yay for Christians!

 

Fair enough, Go Christians!!

 

It's the "offers no hope" barb that repeatedly irks me - we've been down this road before and several boardsters have been along for the ride. A secular humanist existence doesn't in any way equate to a hopeless, hapless existence despite the best efforts of some people of faith to paint it that way. If there's no Divine carrot at the end of the stick for me, then I had better bust ass to make the here and now the best here and now I can. If I'm not going to see the people I love for all eternity on the Big White Cloud, I had better make damn sure they know what they mean to me here and now. I can be blown away by the 70 sextillian stars shining down on me in a 14 billion year old universe without getting despondent over the smallness and accidental nature of our being. And I can be content and downright jazzed with my serindipitous existence in a cosmic grandness that is going to outlast us all human folly.

 

You've admonished me for suggesting I understand anything of what your faith is to you, and I've taken that to heart. But you see no equivalent slight in suggesting that a human existence without a Divine Agent can not be meaningful, satisfying and all the salvation one expects or needs.

 

Who is the one with the agenda?

[sox4lifeinPA]

You're welcome - those that stayed awake (you can feel sorry for my students now...).  But...

 

As far as losing the agenda... Pally, ya gotta practice what you preach.  your "what do we (Christians) fear" query is loaded because you answer your own question by deriding science as not "offering hope either way."  Then you take a token stab at the flipside question by saying science has nothing to fear because, hey, who's not down with Rapture?  Either way you slice it, yay for Christians!

 

Fair enough, Go Christians!!

 

It's the "offers no hope" barb that repeatedly irks me - we've been down this road before and several boardsters have been along for the ride.  A secular humanist existence doesn't in any way equate to a hopeless, hapless existence despite the best efforts of some people of faith to paint it that way.  If there's no Divine carrot at the end of the stick for me, then I had better bust ass to make the here and now the best here and now I can.  If I'm not going to see the people I love for all eternity on the Big White Cloud, I had better make damn sure they know what they mean to me here and now.  I can be blown away by the 70 sextillian stars shining down on me in a 14 billion year old universe without getting despondent over the smallness and accidental nature of our being. And I can be content and downright jazzed with my serindipitous existence in a cosmic grandness that is going to outlast us all human folly.

 

You've admonished me for suggesting I understand anything of what your faith is to you, and I've taken that to heart.  But you see no equivalent slight in suggesting that a human existence without a Divine Agent can not be meaningful, satisfying and all the salvation one expects or needs.

 

Who is the one with the agenda?

point taken. I stand corrected.

 

I guess I need to understand the "secular humanist existence" better, because for me, if a devine agent doesn't exist and I'm not responsible for my actions while I'm alive, why do I care? and why do we punish murderers, etc?

 

I'm asking, seriously. I guess I don't understand. class in session, once again.

 

thanks jim

[FlaSoxxJim]

point taken. I stand corrected.

 

I guess I need to understand the "secular humanist existence" better, because for me, if a devine agent doesn't exist and I'm not responsible for my actions while I'm alive, why do I care? and why do we punish murderers, etc?

 

I'm asking, seriously. I guess I don't understand. class in session, once again.

 

thanks jim

Venus and Mars or something, I don't know.

 

When I was maybe 7 years old I could rationalize that if here's no God then why do we care what we do, why don't we all become murderers, etc. But I don't, don't, don't get it when an adult says it. Who for a minute suggests you are not responsible for your actions while you're alive? Back to working to make the here and now the best possible if that's all there is, the attitude that it 'just doesn't matter what any of us do because if there's no God and no Salvation then what is the point' does not wash. There is morality without God. There is right and wrong without God and there is accountability for unjust actions even if any pennance doled out is confined to the material world alone.

 

The Divine Carrot and Stick seems a childish approach to it all, and I don't mean to reduce your faith to that but if life divorced from a Divine Agent can't be seen as intrinsically meaningful and capable of being grounded in a humanistic morality, then there's a disconnect we'll not get around in this discussion.

[cwsox]

everything one might want to know about the Noah narratives from a great Biblical scholar

 

and here

 

if one is into ancient mesopotamian flood stories and everybody had them, you would find them here

[YASNY]

Anyone who would refuse to acknowledge that humans and apes have common ancestors, in light of the HEAPING MOUNDS of evidence saying so, then yes, they are ignorant, stubborn, and most likely scared.

Every day, I watch the Sun appear to revolve around the Earth. The starts and moon, too. The Earth is the center of the universe and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant because of the amount of evidence that can clearly be seen with the naked eye.

 

 

What appears to evidence of something today may be proven to be only misleading or a fallacy tomorrow. Which is why this still, to this day, called the THEORY of evolution.

[YASNY]

I don't believe that all of the stories in the NT occured, ver batim, as translated,

interpreted and selected throught the course of history. However, i do believe SOMETHING happened that was similar and may actually have a scientific basis. For example, when Moses turned the Nile into "blood", it has been suggested that there is a scientific explanation for what actually occured. I don't remember the details, but it had something to do with a distant earthquake releasing tons of a deep red clay into the Nile. The miracle in all this is that God used what was physically available here on Earth to make these "miracles" happen when He wanted them to happen. As for the flood, that is a common story throughout all of ancient civilization, not just the Middle East. Again, SOMETHING happened, though we may not understand exactly what it was.

[sox4lifeinPA]

I don't believe that all of the stories in the NT occured, ver batim, as translated,

 

what? you mean you don't believe that Jesus turned water into Coors light?

[sox4lifeinPA]

   

When I was maybe 7 years old I could rationalize that if here's no God then why do we care what we do, why don't we all become murderers, etc.

 

ah, I see where I stand.

 

But I don't, don't, don't get it when an adult says it.

 

clearly

 

Who for a minute suggests you are not responsible for your actions while you're alive?

 

I never said that a person isn't responsible for their actions while they're alive, I just said that I can't see a point to acting in anyway but for the benefit of the individual and maybe a few people they want to help subsist.

 

Back to working to make the here and now the best possible if that's all there is, the attitude that it 'just doesn't matter what any of us do because if there's no God and no Salvation then what is the point' does not wash.

 

why not? If I believe that my God created the heavens and the earth and desires us to seek to help the helpless, feed the hungry, honor the neighbor as if he were ourselves and love our enemies, how is that any less made up than

There is morality without God.  There is right and wrong without God and there is accountability for unjust actions even if any pennance doled out is confined to the material world alone.

???? It seems like it's justification and as mechanical as the stories in the Bible.

 

The Divine Carrot and Stick seems a childish approach to it all

 

I guess I'm just far enough along in my journey to not understand the other side; be able to see the other side of river from wence I came.

 

and I don't mean to reduce your faith to that

 

I'm confident that we can still meet at bennigans for my country skillet

 

but if life divorced from a Divine Agent can't be seen as intrinsically meaningful and capable of being grounded in a humanistic morality, then there's a disconnect we'll not get around in this discussion.

 

The beauty of the creation of man. Wonderful how we each hold different truths/beliefs to our heart, isn't it? My deal is, and maybe that's because all I've ever known is this, but without a back drop of faith and rules defined by the Divine Agent, I can't really explain the humanistic morality that I feel inside of me. I think that's the "seperation" I was talking about between habilis/neaderthalis and sapien sapien. you dig? The binobo monkey (our closest relative) does not have the ability to moralize it's decision to play with its pee pee or not eat that extra helping of ants because he's depressed and knows he's just putting on extra weight.

 

I think that inner morality that we feel seems like a clear sign of something deeper in our lives than 100 million years of evolution. hell, I don't know, I'm probably wrong. I don't believe I am, because of the things I can attest to and have seen, but who knows. Either way, because of my faith, I treat others in the way that you have described, however, I ascribe them to my God's desires and commandments. I think that's where we're at.

 

nice talking amigo.

 

ab.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I never said that a person isn't responsible for their actions while they're alive....

Aarghh!!. This is YOUR QUOTE, not mine:

 

for me, if a devine agent doesn't exist and I'm not responsible for my actions while I'm alive, why do I care? and why do we punish murderers, etc?

 

In what way did I mis-represent your take on a world without God as equvalent to a world without meaning and thus a world where chaos and immorality would reign and why not, who cares, etc.?

 

The laws of man stand in the absence of a God. Societal values, mores, customs, taboos, etc., exist without the backdrop of Divinity. Codified laws can emerge from all of these through the will and work of human beings. Morality is real even if it is born of flesh and blood.

 

I'm at a loss. You may pay your taxes because you are an American because you feel it is your civic duty as a citizen. Your naighbor may pay his taxes because he doesn't want to go to jail. The societal values and/or laws of man keep things chugging along.

 

I may not murder anyone on my way to my favorite coffee shop this morning because I think it would make the world worse rather than better. You may not murder anybody today (even co-workers at your bank) because they like to execute people in Texas and between that and the ass-rammin' good time prison would offer in teh interim you've decided the consequences are not worth the action. Either ways, the humanistic morality and/or the laws of man keep people behaving within specs of a functioning society.

[Wong & Owens]

you're not entirely correct. There is geological evidence that there was a huge, massive, catastrophic flood around the supposed time of Noah. Could the supposed boat have held 2 of every species? Of course not, but it may really have been a huge boat with many animals (hundreds maybe?) on board. I am highly critical of Biblical History, but, this is one story that MAY have a slight reality behind it, just nlown way out of proportion

Yes, I understand that there may have been a big flood in the Middle East region, but, if it wasn't a worldwide flood, and Noah & Co. weren't going to be the only people saved, then the bible story is pretty pointless, no?

[mreye]

Yes, I understand that there may have been a big flood in the Middle East region, but, if it wasn't a worldwide flood, and Noah & Co. weren't going to be the only people saved, then the bible story is pretty pointless, no?

No. I think the point is to teach a lesson, like many of the bible stories.

[Wong & Owens]

No. I think the point is to teach a lesson, like many of the bible stories.

I mean pointless from an archaeological perspective.

 

Yes, I agree that the story of Noah has fine fable-like qualities, but if there was no worldwide flood that killed all people and animals on earth, except for the couples paired up on Noah's love boat, then there probably was no big love boat, thus no need to go trapezing into the Turkish mountains to find it.

 

I saw the guy who is heading up the expedition on tv last night. He seems REAL sure of himself. I've got 3 words for him -- Al Capone's Vault.

[sox4lifeinPA]

for me, if a devine agent doesn't exist and I'm not responsible for my actions while I'm alive, why do I care? and why do we punish murderers, etc?

 

that is my quote, and I didn't express entirely what I wanted to say. I meant that if I no eternal responsibilies for my actions while I'm alive, I can choose to squander and do with my life as I please. why do I care about others?

[FlaSoxxJim]

No. I think the point is to teach a lesson, like many of the bible stories.

The lesson being, of course, if some fraction of humanity is naughty enough, God's going to lay waste to the bunch of you (excepting Noah and his family), including infants, children, and other unquestionable innocents, because... Hey, He's God, shut up and take your smiting and don't ask questions or ask God to play fair...

 

Did I get that right, or does my catechism need a refresher?

[sox4lifeinPA]

The lesson being, of course, if some fraction of humanity is naughty enough, God's going to lay waste to the bunch of you (excepting Noah and his family), including infants, children, and other unquestionable innocents, because... Hey, He's God, shut up and take your smiting and don't ask questions or ask God to play fair...

 

Did I get that right, or does my catechism need a refresher?

Why does God need to play fair?

[FlaSoxxJim]

why do I care about others?

That's the real question, isn't it. Is your motivation entirely extrinsic to your humanity? Aside from the Eternal Reward thing (again, a childish Santa Clause kind of motivation), do you do good just to offer it up to Him, or do you think that what the heck, good for the sake of good has its own intrinsic value for us in the here and now?

 

My beliefs are firmly planted in the latter viewpoint.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Why does God need to play fair?

Why would I give Him a second thought if it were determined that he doesn't?

 

The Hindu Destroyer God is way cooler at any rate, so if I'm in the market for a Destroyer, the more arms the better!

 

[sox4lifeinPA]

Aarghh!!.  This is YOUR QUOTE, not mine:

 

 

 

In what way did I mis-represent your take on a world without God as equvalent to a world without meaning and thus a world where chaos and immorality would reign and why not, who cares, etc.?

 

The laws of man stand in the absence of a God.  Societal values, mores, customs, taboos, etc., exist without the backdrop of Divinity.  Codified laws can emerge from all of these through the will and work of human beings.  Morality is real even if it is born of flesh and blood.

 

I'm at a loss.  You may pay your taxes because you are an American because you feel it is your civic duty as a citizen.  Your naighbor may pay his taxes because he doesn't want to go to jail.  The societal values and/or laws of man keep things chugging along.

 

I may not murder anyone on my way to my favorite coffee shop this morning because I think it would make the world worse rather than better.  You may not murder anybody today (even co-workers at your bank) because they like to execute people in Texas and between that and the ass-rammin' good time prison would offer in teh interim you've decided the consequences are not worth the action.  Either ways, the humanistic morality and/or the laws of man keep people behaving within specs of a functioning society.

So do you believe that all religions are "sets of rituals rationalized by men which mobilize supernatural powers for the purpose of achieveing or preventing transformations of state in man and nature"

 

I know that I should "follow the rules" placed by society so I don't reap the consequences of my actions, but what I'm saying is, if there's not eternal implication, honestly, I can just do what I want and face no real lasting punishment.

 

I mean, if I killed 600 people because I hated my job and then killed myself, where is the justice in that?

 

I think that's what I'm getting at.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Why would I give Him a second thought if it were determined that he doesn't?

 

The Hindu Destroyer God is way cooler at any rate, so if I'm in the market for a Destroyer, the more arms the better!

 

don't forget the tiger in his crotch

[mreye]

The lesson being, of course, if some fraction of humanity is naughty enough, God's going to lay waste to the bunch of you (excepting Noah and his family), including infants, children, and other unquestionable innocents, because... Hey, He's God, shut up and take your smiting and don't ask questions or ask God to play fair...

 

Did I get that right, or does my catechism need a refresher?

But when all was said and done, He promised to not do it again.

[FlaSoxxJim]

So do you believe that all religions are "sets of rituals rationalized by men which mobilize supernatural powers for the purpose of achieveing or preventing transformations of state in man and nature"

 

I know that I should "follow the rules" placed by society so I don't reap the consequences of my actions, but what I'm saying is, if there's not eternal implication, honestly, I can just do what I want and face no real lasting punishment.

 

I mean, if I killed 600 people because I hated my job and then killed myself, where is the justice in that?

 

I think that's what I'm getting at.

I believe religion is the service and worship of God/the supernatural, either a personal or institutionalized commitment to faith in a higher power.

 

And I think temporal aspects of consequences are relative. If there is nothing after your finite human life, then life in incarceration or voiding your life is about as consequential as it can get for you on a personal level. That is a lasting punishment if the standard of measure is a human life span. Sure there's an out in that the pennance is finite, but then again so is personal existence for secular folks.

[FlaSoxxJim]

But when all was said and done, He promised to not do it again.

Sweet, let the sinful ways again commence I say - God's giving us a pass this time around!

[FlaSoxxJim]

don't forget the tiger in his crotch

Hey Shiva, is that a tiger in your crotch or are you just happy to see me?