Soxy Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 First of all, just prior to Jesus' ascension, He sent the Holy Spirit of God upon his apostles...actually it was pentacost, but you get the idea. I think we've forgotten the Holy Spirit and what He's capable of. We've missed the fact that He is 1/3 of God and therefore shares equal power and Glory. Paul's writings are 100% filled by the Holy Spirit. I say that because he had nothing to gain by writing these things except for the edification of the church, and all the while, he was nicely nestled into his prison; I think that just furthers the point. here goes: Acts 1:8 Acts 2:42-47 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 and 13 1 Corinthians 12:12 and 21-28 Ephesians 4:2-6 and 26-27 Galatians 5:16-26 WAY out of line with what Jesus said.......................... I understand your point, and we're called by God to test the spirit of things...but Paul's writings are tested again and again, and should be consumed, regurgitated, digested again and repeat. It's made it thus far for a reason. it is a true example of church Don't think I am not familiar with the Acts of the Apostles and Paul's writings. I am. I am simply arguing that too often we throw over Jesus' teaching for the justification by faith and grace of Paul. Yes, preaching is hard--but Jesus did more than preach--he lived a life dedicated to suffering service of those around him. In that aspect it is Jesus' life that is saving. And trust me I do not underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit (the advocate--is my favorite term, one who will plead our case and come to our aid in time of trial). But we have to trust the spirit of things? Isn't that exactly what I feel I have done? I have found the spirit of Jesus' LIFE as the ultimate example of Christian love and goodness. So, only when I find and believe in the same spirit as others is that when it is valid? Hm....... And NONE of the Pauline texts you cited (while very good for the evangilizing movement) talked about the importance, the supreme importance, that Jesus himself did. I understand their point and importance--but well, I think more healing can be done through our listening to the down trodded and giving them support (and that will win many more converts--if that's the goal) than by more Pauline methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Nope, I got your back Jim. sweet, I'm all alone in this quick smoke break from this discussion: what scares me about Christianity is the amount of people locked into what they believe and for no apparent reason. I'm trying to stay teachable and trying to understand, and this is something that I'll continue to do until I die. I don't get it when people say "well that's the way it is"... Because, sometimes, it's like...no, it's not. aye yay yay. my friend is a Christian music artist and one of his songs goes like this: "still trying to find a way to strike it rich and follow Jesus" if only he could sing in "green". Like Paul, I trust that the Spirit is speaking through him. That lyric SMELLS like Jesus. anyway, smoke break over... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I think more healing can be done through our listening to the down trodded and giving them support (and that will win many more converts--if that's the goal) than by more Pauline methods clearly you didn't read the verses I cited or you would have read 1 Corinthians 12: 21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. That's exactly what you're looking for. I have found the spirit of Jesus' LIFE as the ultimate example of Christian love and goodness. So, only when I find and believe in the same spirit as others is that when it is valid? Hm....... Clearly Christ is our perfect example. He is our definition for existing, however, we are not islands. We are called to community and we have a clear picture as to what that should look like (remember God is speaking through Paul) in the letters to the early church. It's essential. It's Christian life completed. And NONE of the Pauline texts you cited (while very good for the evangilizing movement) talked about the importance, the supreme importance, that Jesus himself did. I understand their point and importance not sure if the first part was a barb, but I'll just ignore it. The 7 verses I cited in 2 minutes don't point to that importance, yes, because I was talking about the importance of community, i.e. church. but I'll spend another 2 minutes for you: 1 Corinthians 1:17 and 30 Romans 5:1 and 15 Romans 16 rocks btw... Acts 2:38-39 1 Peter 1:3-12 etc......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 clearly you didn't read the verses I cited or you would have read 1 Corinthians 12: That's exactly what you're looking for. Clearly Christ is our perfect example. He is our definition for existing, however, we are not islands. We are called to community and we have a clear picture as to what that should look like (remember God is speaking through Paul) in the letters to the early church. It's essential. It's Christian life completed. not sure if the first part was a barb, but I'll just ignore it. The 7 verses I cited in 2 minutes don't point to that importance, yes, because I was talking about the importance of community, i.e. church. but I'll spend another 2 minutes for you: 1 Corinthians 1:17 and 30 Romans 5:1 and 15 Romans 16 rocks btw... Acts 2:38-39 1 Peter 1:3-12 etc......... Actually, I did read those passages in context (i.e. all of chapter 12--the Spiritual gifts chapter). But what Paul is saying that we are all one body in the BAPTISM. So, the CHURCH is one body--great. But Jesus did not only help those who were within the coventential promise of Abraham, Moses and David--he reached out to the Gentiles and even the hated Samaratians. So, I understand the point, but Paul is not as radically inclusive as is Jesus. For what good is it if I love my friends, do not even the taxpayers do that? While I greatly respect the Pauline texts in MY PERSONAL idea of Christianity they are only to support the actual words of Christ. Yes, Paul told us to live in community to live with other Christians--but to limit our love and community only to that is flying in the face of what I see Jesus' mission to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Paul is not as radically inclusive as is Jesus. you mean paul, the man who took Christ to the gentiles? commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant[1] of the church in Cenchrea. 2I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me. 3Greet Priscilla[2] and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. 4They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. 5Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia. 6Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you. 7Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. 8Greet Ampliatus, whom I love in the Lord. 9Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys. 10Greet Apelles, tested and approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus. 11Greet Herodion, my relative. Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord. 12Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord. 13Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. 14Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brothers with them. 15Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints with them. 16Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send greetings. 17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. 21Timothy, my fellow worker, sends his greetings to you, as do Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, my relatives. 22I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord. 23Gaius, whose hospitality I and the whole church here enjoy, sends you his greetings. Erastus, who is the city's director of public works, and our brother Quartus send you their greetings.[3] 25Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him-- 27to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen. hate to break it to ya, but..... Luke 10... "2He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field." or Luke 13 "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish" "22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" 24He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' 26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' 27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last." The ever lnclusive message of Christ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 How ironic that you cited the same chapter in Luke which contains the Good Samaratian--the ultimate act of all inclusive love by a Jew. Also, that tiny snippet of the story you quoted does not show that Jesus told them to go EVERYWHER and preach to EVERYONE--Jew, Samartian, etc. The one who shows us mercy is our neighbor--go and do likewise. Also, you do not acknowledge that (unless my memory is slipping re: the contents of that verse) that Chapter 13 starts off with the story about pruning the branches that produce no one who is not without producing will be saved. So, we are saved by the compassion that Luke so often preaches--our extending of compassion and love to all and acting on that love is what makes us produce fruit and be saved for the pruner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 How ironic that you cited the same chapter in Luke which contains the Good Samaratian--the ultimate act of all inclusive love by a Jew. Also, that tiny snippet of the story you quoted does not show that Jesus told them to go EVERYWHER and preach to EVERYONE--Jew, Samartian, etc. The one who shows us mercy is our neighbor--go and do likewise. Also, you do not acknowledge that (unless my memory is slipping re: the contents of that verse) that Chapter 13 starts off with the story about pruning the branches that produce no one who is not without producing will be saved. So, we are saved by the compassion that Luke so often preaches--our extending of compassion and love to all and acting on that love is what makes us produce fruit and be saved for the pruner. 6Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.' " yeah, there's compassion, but you forgot the "if not then........" kind of major, if you ask me. How ironic that you cited the same chapter in Luke which contains the Good Samaratian--the ultimate act of all inclusive love by a Jew. Also, that tiny snippet of the story you quoted does not show that Jesus told them to go EVERYWHER and preach to EVERYONE--Jew, Samartian, etc. The one who shows us mercy is our neighbor--go and do likewise. it's not ironic at all. I specifically quoted paul, because of the global effect his ministry had. I think we might be missing each other somewhere.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 crap, Bible quotes. OK, I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I think Jesus and his message is a radical one, clearly. The Jewish customs were anti-women, anti-poor, anti-foreigner, etc. Jesus took his message to the people whom needed God and someone to love them. But his message was clear, I am the WAY, the Truth and the Life. The only way to God is through ME. While I agree that he wants and desires a relationship with everyone, the gate is narrow. Paul's ministry took Jesus' message and went global (at least to the known world at the time). I don't see a conflict between them. Moreover, as I said, a Christian cannot operate alone. He needs a church, a community of believers. Jesus calls to then go and preach to the world, i.e. the Great Commission. I'm weary of this "radically inclusive" idea. it smells like liberal agenda trying to hijack the grace of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 I think Jesus and his message is a radical one, clearly. The Jewish customs were anti-women, anti-poor, anti-foreigner, etc. Jesus took his message to the people whom needed God and someone to love them. But his message was clear, I am the WAY, the Truth and the Life. The only way to God is through ME. While I agree that he wants and desires a relationship with everyone, the gate is narrow. Paul's ministry took Jesus' message and went global (at least to the known world at the time). I don't see a conflict between them. Moreover, as I said, a Christian cannot operate alone. He needs a church, a community of believers. Jesus calls to then go and preach to the world, i.e. the Great Commission. I'm weary of this "radically inclusive" idea. it smells like liberal agenda trying to hijack the grace of God. My last comment on the subject: it is not the radicals who have hijacked the loving, forgiving, welcoming to all God that is in the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 crap, Bible quotes. OK, I'm out. as am i it seems, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 My last comment on the subject: it is not the radicals who have hijacked the loving, forgiving, welcoming to all God that is in the Bible. that's right, it's those who choose to look past and distort the clearly written and sometimes tough to swallow message of Christ. all are welcome, few will choose. know that Christ made the ulimate sacrifice, overcame death, paid for our sins with his own blood, and rose again to be the bride-groom and center of the church. love God above all things, love others as yourself, repent daily, live life in a community of sharing and teaching, make sure your election is secure through the Spirit, the faith, and the good works God has set before you. don't place your own agenda upon the message of Christ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 I don't see a conflict between them. Moreover, as I said, a Christian cannot operate alone. He needs a church, a community of believers. Jesus calls to then go and preach to the world, i.e. the Great Commission. So, by decree, you negate the Christianity of Saint Anthony the Abbot, Saint Giles of Nimes, my favorite Saint Caoimhghin (Kevin) of Glendalough, and any others I don't know because they lived a significant portion of their spiritual lives as Hermits? I spent a day at Glendalough in the Wicklow Mountains about 10 years ago in ireland. Amazing. His cave and stone bed, beehive huts, a hand-built one-man (hey, he was a hermit) church. But because he felt solitude was the best way for him to know God (i.e., no church, no community), he wasn't Christian? 'Kay. Seems pretty committed to God to me. As a recovering Catholic, I got a lot more of the later Day 'Saint of the Day' kind of religious history than you did as a kid. I can tell you how far Saint Dennis walked AFTER his head was cut off to get to his final resting place. I can tell you that Saint George could Sooo kick a dragon's ass... Good stuff. But I always liked the Mystics and the acetics, they were commited. Congratulations on being a better Christian than them. (That should be in green, natch.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 all are welcome... I know! I know! Poltergeist, right?! "Walk into the light..." That little old lady creeped me out. love God above all things, love others as yourself, repent daily, live life in a community of sharing and teaching, make sure your election is secure through the Spirit, the faith, and the good works God has set before you. Also, wash your hands after you go to the bathroom and try not to play with yourself so much. Sooo many rules... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Congratulations on being a better Christian than them. that's completely asinine and you know it. Yes, I believe community is essential to the christian life, but not essential to salvation. Professing the faith publically is part of salvation, and that's hard to do without anyone around, but I'm sure the trees and moss makes for great conversation. blech... welp, that killed the conversation.... *tag* I'm out edit: re:asinine :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 that's completely asinine and you know it. Yes, I believe community is essential to the christian life, but not essential to salvation. Professing the faith publically is part of salvation, and that's hard to do without anyone around, but I'm sure the trees and moss makes for great conversation. blech... welp, that killed the conversation.... *tag* I'm out edit: re:asinine :headshake Of course it's asinine and that's why green was in order; You, Sir, are no Saint Caoimhghin. And salvation is not the issue at the moment, Christianity is. By your definition, the Hermit Saints were not Christians while living in solitude. I actually think there is not a better public profession of faith than picking up and leaving the community you grew up in for a life of solitude and prayer in teh mountains or in a desert or on a rock outcrop in the ocean. I doubly like this approach because the singular professional act is made and then these Christians went about their business and kept it between themselves and God. Many of them did minister to pilgrims who travelled to see them, but other than that if these guys ever felt the urge to lapse into rabid evangelism, it was fortunately only the trees and moss that had to put up with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 like I said... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 like I said... OK, so be it. But at the heart of this are serious questions. Number One Apostle Peter says “Always be ready to give an answer when someone asks you about your hope. Give a kind and respectful answer and keep your conscience clear.” So here are the questions and maybe you’ll respond. Your dedication to “the Great Commission” (Go ye therefore, and teach all nations – Matt, right?) is part and parcel to the Evangelical Christianity I believe from reading your posts you ascribe to (again, I have learned not to presume anything of your faith, but that’s all the more reason to not exit the conversation prematurely). Do I have it essentially correct that you consider yourself an Evangelical Christian? Were you born as a child into this specific flavor of Christianity, or is was it a born-again arrival to where you are currently at? Is being born-again an essential step toward salvation in your estimation? A lot of Evangelicals dismiss Catholicism and several other denominations as being cults that are something less than truly Christian. I suspect that the extra-Biblical nature of the Catholic teachings on the Saints I alluded to is off-putting to you (whereas it’s just kind of harmlessly silly to a lot of Catholics). But, what is your take on Catholics and their chance at salvation? Do they in general make the cut without born-againing? Unitarinians, Mormans, Jehova’s Witnesses, etc., are all rather disdainfully viewed by a lot of Evangelicals. Do you dismiss these? I wholeheartedly agreed with George Carlin all those years ago when he equated religion to using lifts in your shoes. “Use them for a while if you need them but don’t allow yourself to be crippled by them. And for God’s sake, don’t go nailing lifts on the feet of the natives.” Which is to say I really dislike the missionary aspects of Evangelical Christianity. I fear you and I are likely further apart on this point than on any other. I think Jesus could have considered those words on the Mount a little more carefully and just said, go teach those nations that come around looking for it but please leave everyone else alone, they’ll be fine. Rebut, please. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Rebut, please. I'll think about it. I'd rather not hash some of those details via message board, some things I can handle discussing openly, because i'm trying to learn, other things aren't open for discussion in a medium of this type. hope you understand. Peace and to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 I do. I think spirituality is best when it's kept fairly personal. Hence my beef with the missionary ferver aspects, but viva variety! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 When I listen to people like Vince or FlaJim talk, I feel pretty stupid too. I want to acknowledge this statement and say that I saw it hours ago and was so humbled (believe it or not) that I had to think about it for all this time. The three people to whom - far and away - that have posted the closest to my views are FlaSoxxJim, ChiSoxyGirl and GOWT. To be included in the same sentence as FSK by GOWT is an honor. One of my proudest honors was when the leading atheist in Calhoun County wrote a letter to the editor of the paper which said I was not too stupid for a minister. With love and respect to everyone, the conversation amongst the religious does not mean much to me. We live in a world that as Bonhoeffer said has "come of age" and does not need religion anymore. The proper preparation for any worship service is a reflection on our own sin. The people who claim the name of Christ have commited any number of grievous sins against humanity (here's a trinity for you all: crusades, Inquistition, Holocaust) and have no room to address anyone on anything. For a group that persecuted people for believing the earth revolved around the sun or put people on trial for not beliving the historicity of Genesis or produce s&m gay porn and call it the Passion, we have no reason to think that we can converse in intellectual matters. And let us not forget the ludicrousness of Bishop Usher (as opposed to the great beats of Ludicris and Ussher). We are not people who actually trust our own Scriptures. The very first narrative of murder, Cain killing Abel, God not only protected Cain but gave everyone else a warning not to harm him. We prolciam a Savior wrongfully executed. And yet there are those who argue in favor of the death penalty... not in God's world. For example. And I could throw the terms "tautology" and"aetological" out there and be condemned by my own fellow believers and yet know I am in the company of the greatest of believing scholars who have devoted their life to what the Scriptures actually say rather than defend tautology and aetological stories. It is where one hears the voice of God - in defending the indefensible (Noah's Ark, give me a break) or in hearing that God is saying something far more meaningful that transcends any lack of historicity be speaking to a Truth that lays beyond Mesopotamian narratives. God is not capracious. God is not unjust. God did not wipe out almost all of humanity out of a petulant rage because people didn't worship God enough. It is the sketic and/or the non believer who is able to understand the truth of that. Or the person who reads every word and understands scholarship rather than defend the indefensible. There are clearly two narrative strands woven together in Genesis 6. Scholars denote them as the J source and the P source. The P source in Genesis 6.1ff clearly identifies the overarching crime of humanity, the offense to God: "Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence... I am determined to make an end to all flesh , for the earth is filled with violence..." Now is the point of the story that God acts with evil intent because God has the power to (which would violate God's own definitioon of God in Exodus but that is another thread)... or that violence is the consuming destructive end of humanity? I reflect on Jesus saying those who live by the sword die by the sword and I know the answer. If we actually read (present tense on "read" not past tense) we notice again and again that God's usual comments on the religious who spoke to the religious is to say (as in Amos, Micah, name your 8th century BCE prophet) that God hates and despises our sacred feasts and our festivals and all of our religious talk and piety but that God desires (indeed, in Micah, requires) justice, mercy, and walking humbly with our God. God does not require our religiousity. God requires we live as if God matters. (And incidently, a huge salute to Apu who is probably a raging atheist, I don't know, but whose every post speaks of his yearning, his passion for justice and I know that, regardless of the mere facts that Apu may argue, that Apu is proclaiming God's own message of justice more than any of the rest of us and I am humbled.) "I believe because the Bible says" - hell who can believe that s***? Brando caught a hell of a lot of flack by saying that if God were indeed a capricious being then God could go f*** himself (if maleness were an attribute of God). Sure that sounds offensive but given the language of the 21st century common vocabulary it is as profound of a religious statement that can be made. The authors of Scripture would surely agree -- if not stating that more elegantly. The entire battle in Genesis 1 and elsewhere but especially seen in chapter 1 is the battle against chaos, against capriciousness. The earth was without form and void - chaos ruled - read the Scriptures again and see that battle against chaos over and over again. In the chaos of capricious and jealous and "why do I have to be fair" gods there is the unique YHWH - the God of justice - who puts an end to chaos. Christus Victor. The Scriptures tell us that God sets aside capriciousness and is justice to us because God is who God is and will be (Exodus 3). I am who I am. I have heard the cry of people who suffer injustice and I respond with deliverance. Exodus 3. God is not the God who practices "who says I have to be fair" as underlying the Noah stories because that is everything that God abhors, that is not who God is by God's own statement. The Noah narratves say that violence destroys us, that God sends to the whole creation the symbols of peace and establishes a covenant that if set aside violence we shall not enter into desturction, with if destruction comes, will be of our own doing, not of God's doing. (And in the end because God is indeed shown to be the God of justice, it is - and I can hear Eligah saying this - the gods of Ba'al that do go f*** themselves because in the moment of reality YHWH was the God not capriscious, not unfair, but True to the Revelation of God.) And yes there is a passing reference to "I am a jealous God" but in context God totally destroys the paradigm of jealousy. And then I read again that every interesting conversation that God as God, or God in Christ, has with the human creation is with the skeptics and these are the people, not the religious, whom God favors. Abraham scoffed, Sarah laughed, Lot got drunk, Jacob wrestled with God, Moses said not me, Rahab was a prostitute, David was a murderer (another statement on the death penalty), Elijah went and hid in the mountains, Amos said I am only a vine dresser, Jesus said let this pass from me, Paul - another murderer - was made the greatest apostle (another statement on he death penalty), and we don't read the geneology of Jesus and thus fail to see the scoundrals, prostitutesm foreigners, aliens, and other outsiders and we think it is all religious folk. Wrong! The greatest truths we learn are from those who will not accept our bulls*** and religious platitudes. (Best sermon criticims I ever got: "your views on that subject are myopic." and that turned out to be so true...) Jesus sought out the greatest skeptics and critics for the best conversations - that is where we hear Gospel. God always called the outsider, the skeptic, the one not favored by the religious. Isaac, not Esau. David, not the brothers, and certainly not Saul. Deborah, and not her male counterparts, Ruth, not even a follower of YHWH, Rahab the whore, Haggai, husband of a whore, Zacheus, Paul, Matthew, so much so the religious were offended who Jesus jung with and listened to. Those who can point out the fallacies and the unbelivable things abiout what we say - they are right and we must listen to them and not try to amke them believe our impossible stories. And then we can see that when we cannot defend the indefensible, we are freed up by God's grace the see the Truth that is shielded from the religious but visible to the ones who question every detail. When one can't buy all of it one has begun to grasp the whole. When one cannot buy any of it one is freed to look again as if for the first ime and see something wholly new and that is the image of God reflected in the fiercist skeptic who has given us the prism to see that which we cnanot behold: that we begin in recognizing our own weaknesses and need to hear the voice of God in all who speak, especially ones who see through our religious verbiage and say get real. Getting real indeed. Thank you to those who do not accept. Blessed are those who see the holes in our platitudes for it is in dialogue with them we think not as people of religious conviction but as those who seek to be open to the very things that blow us away and show us that God indeed does a new thing, teaching us to look beyond our comfort zone, do we not perceive it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 I'll answer that question... I think its more about being "missional" versus doing "missions"... it's basically a life style. honestly, I have no control over whether or not my best friend finds faith in Christ, but I'm going to do my best to live a Christ-like and love filled life (see: chisoxygirl for explanations) and live in a community that is supportive of my needs, not just supportive of what I believe. well expressed (if your community has beers...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 well expressed (if your community has beers...) I'm thinking about deleting my posts... common ground is no where in sight, save the color green. clearly I'm being mocked. good night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 I'm thinking about deleting my posts... common ground is no where in sight, save the color green. clearly I'm being mocked. good night. Please read that again, PA. That is sincere compliment and not mockery. Vince toasted you and said drink whatever it is you drink, not assuming hoisting a beer to you is necessarily the thing. I'll hoist a beer, Vince a diet Coke. That's all. Deep breath everybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 I'm thinking about deleting my posts... common ground is no where in sight, save the color green. clearly I'm being mocked. good night. my friend, you are not being mocked, not remotely, not remotely what FlaSoxxJim says -- yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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